Official BBR Tier List v7

[Dark.Pch]

As long as you play Yoshi and not what your brawl icon says.



Yoshi isn't even. No reason for it to be either. I have plenty of Yoshi experience, so let's go. What does Yoshi have to even out this MU? DDD only has 6 evens (should actually be 8 if you count Fox and Sheilda). That's more (less evens) than can be said of Falco, Diddy, Wario, ZSS, and Lucario. There's a reason DDD has a better MU spread than the latter three. Also, with the exception of Kirby and Sheik/Sheilda (who are both very good Mid Tier chars), DDD only goes even with another High Tier and BL Tier chars (potentially high tier). That's better than can be said of every single character above DDD except for MK, Marth, and Snake. Everyone else either goes even with more than two random Mid/Low Tier chars and/or they go even with a non-high Mid Tier char.

Basically, what I am saying is: DDD loses to a large portion of Top Tier + ZSS, but he loses to no one below him and he actually beats them harder than everyone above him. He's like Melee Sheik (loses to the rest of Top Tier but beats everyone below Top harder than the rest of Top does) and Melee Peach (loses to every single char in Top Tier and every single char in High Tier, yet remains at #6 on the tier list in high High Tier). No reason for him not to be High Tier. Now, while he does lose to a large portion of Top + ZSS, he still beats some key MUs above him, namely Wario, Marth, Lucario, and possibly Snake (though I'd be willing to concede even to Snake).

Tl;dr - DDD belongs in High Tier. Even if it's the bottom of the tier, he shouldn't actually descend from the tier.

I would love to play you and make you think twice. Those most Top/high tier players I beat with Peach, I assume you would make some excuse why you lost cause you are the high tier.

On another note, if we are gonna play this game, then DDD is not high tier. A character chat can give the other characters in top tier problems is what's important. That's one portion of what makes a character good. When **** gets real they can hold their own. Your defense is that DDD gets an everyone below him. Which is bull but lets stick with this.

You fail to realize one thing. That does not mean much. People play this game for money. People want money, and will do w/e they have to in order to get it. Even if it means seeking there pride and going back on what they stand for when they started playing this game. Which Means You will see top tiers alot. When you run into these over used top tiers, what are you gonna do? Run to meta like so many do? Run to a top tier so your chances of making money are not lost? You gonna fight it out?

If you fight it out that's cool. There 9 top tier characters. Out of those 9, the only one you give serious plroblems too is wario. Next best thing for you? Maybe marth? And idk how pika vs DDD go, so I will not speak on this matter. The rest of the cast is giving you problem.

So lets say you do get through the characters below DDD cause he just gets at them all as you say. Chance are you are gonna run unto more top tiers then anything else. Now if we do the math here

7/9

7= characters that give DDD problems
9= total number of top characters

So what is the % DDD has of comming out of this mess?

2/9

2= characters he takes down
9= top characters He does not.

.286 percent

Thats pretty low bro. This also states that DDD got a free ride to high tier for beating up weaklings. But Can't pick on someone his own size.

 

[Espy Rose]

X beat Nick once and I'd pretty much go even with Dakpo and Shlike whenever we'd play.

 

[infiniteV115]

When did X beat Nick?
When's the last time you beat Dakpo?
I know Shlike hasn't played in like a year so those results are probably old (and he was never really a top ZSS AFAIK) but when did you beat him last?

 

[Espy Rose]

As a sidenote, ZSS beating Sonic on YI:B isn't impressive. Her everything can deal with the sideB.

 

[Seagull Joe]

vs is even. That match never even plays out in tourney. My experience is from going back and forth with PatG/Snakeee and beating Sassy continuous amounts of time.

It's a weird matchup for both characters.

I'd love to hear why you think has the adv given there are no 's in Canada for you to play.

 

[infiniteV115]

I wasn't actually trying to argue that the MU is +1, I was basically just saying "well sure you can make your character sound a lot better if you pretend their MUs are better than generally perceived without even referring to results"
I was setting an example

But if it helps, we just found a way to get a guaranteed kill if we can get the dsmash chain close to the edge.

Also Dakpo bodied Kain recently :D

 

[Seagull Joe]

Yeah I saw that and NR didn't even check to see if the Dsmash chain he did was guaranteed cause that thing doesn't end up working at certain distances or if you miss time it.

The chain also doesn't happen too often in vs because it requires precise setups.

And Kain definitely got beat by Dakpo. Though he just played lool. That wasn't a character thing. He just died to silly things.

 

[Ishiey]

But if it helps, we just found a way to get a guaranteed kill if we can get the dsmash chain close to the edge.

Details? :o

 

[infiniteV115]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRlRn2Fj0hw
Dsmash lock works on Wolf til like ~60 if he DIs out correctly (I'm not even sure how to DI out of it. Up and away would be my guess) and ~80 if he doesn't.

FTR Nick did it wrong cause he's a ***** and can't time dsmashes like a boss. Charging the dsmash isn't the right way to go because charged dsmash --> more knockback --> Wolf pops out further --> shorter amount of time spent on ground. Wolf was popping up way higher in this video than he did when I tested this.

 

[Ishiey]

Huh. Cool lol. After what % does a fresh dsmash send Wolf too far to chain dsmashes, any idea?

 

[infiniteV115]

Fresh? Not sure exactly but if I were to guess I would say he'd definitely pop out too high from 40 onwards.
30ish maybe
20 probably not.

 

[Ishiey]

Aight, thanks for the info and rough % estimates

 

[Dark.Pch]

Good god there is so many things people can do on wolf.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

It works roughly like this to my knowledge though I may run it through frame advance to check:

Dsmash chains until like 60%, when wolf can jump out and airdodge. If he fails to jump out, it will chain from 65-90% or so.

The effective percent is until around 60%, however if dsmash is staled enough (if he was hit with a dsmash combo recently basically) when it hits him at ~65, it will chain for a while then too.

 

[Neon!]

Notice how it has tons of landing lag and the only times it autocancels are either before the hitbox comes out () or on the very last frame, which really only saves you 1 frame.
So if you hit the opponent's shield with it, you're either not landing immediately after (ie in the air) and they can punish you out of the cooldown, or you're landing immediately after and taking tons of landing lag.
ZSS' bair on the other hand is -6 on block when done properly, and it has very good shield push. It's a great landing option.

Also what are the BKB/KBG values for it? In the hitbox thread for DK it says 20 BKB and 100 KBG, but...ZSS' bair is listed as 33 BKB and 100 KBG (making it stronger).
I can't find the frames for which the hitboxes are out, but it clearly has a sourspot so lasting for a long time isn't that great if the majority of that time is a terrible move.

So that means this claim
is incorrect for ZSS because if she had DK's bair, she'd have a bair that does the same amount of damage, less knockback and is a completely trash landing option compared to her current bair. Yup, she'd totally be higher on the tier list

I'll admit I don't really know much about Pit's bair other than the fact that it's ridiculously strong (that's why I listed it).
Ness' bair does like 15 or 16%, is an amazing kill move and works very well because of Ness' awesome aerial mobility, has low cooldown and has enough shield push and shield stun so that a rising retreating bair on shield is still fairly safe. Sounds much better than DK's. Also strings well at low percents due to extended hitstun due to being electric.
TL's has very low cooldown, comes out quick and has good range (like DK's bair) allowing it to combo easily at low percents (better than DK's really) and I believe at low percents it true combos into footstool-->dair barring good SDI. It's also a good OoS option and like Ness' is fairly safe when done as a rising and retreating bair on shield.
It lacks the kill power of DK's though, so if it's better than DK's it's not by much imo.

While her bair is safer on shield, DK's does have slightly more range as well as a weak hitbox allowing it to combo into itself multiple times. If zss had dk's bair she would literally be able to dsmashx2 followed by 2 or 3 weak bairs depending on the character/percentage. The weak hit of DK's bair is what makes it a more useful tool because it has more followups. Against characters like snake and olimar, a single bair string can carry them off the stage and put them in an extremely disadvantageous spot, often allowing DK to take their stock with one more read.

This might just be DK specific since zss's vertical jump speed is faster but DK's rising bair can hit opponents as short as diddy and wario out of a short hop making it a significantly better spacing and punishing tool.

 

[bubbaking]

If you're allowed to have opinions that contradict the MU chart to make your character's MUs seem better, than so do I.
ZSS' MU against ICs, TL, Pit, Peach, Wolf, Sheik and Sonic are all +1, not even.

There, now ZSS has less even MUs than DDD

Well, at least give me the benefit of a 100% fair assessment in your statement. It's true that I gave "opinions that contradict the MU chart" which make my character's MUs seem better, but I also admitted that DDD:Snake might be (and probably is) even instead of +1 for DDD. That would actually make DDD's MUs seem worse, especially since Snake is a key Top Tier MU that any character would give an arm and a leg to have in his advantage.

But if it helps, we just found a way to get a guaranteed kill if we can get the dsmash chain close to the edge.

Ummm, do you mean this? 'Cause according to that vid, the dsmash chain was actually discovered way back in 2008. Are you referring to some kind of guaranteed followup out of the chain?

 

[Dark.Pch]

I did it, I finally did it!

I found the single nanner lock Peach can do on diddy. At first I tried many things and could not get it. But I decided to use a method smiliar to Peach Footstool lock. Now try this method in a few ways, and I came up with a way to nanner lock diddy from one side of the stage to the other.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I found a footstool infinite on ROB with Peach

 

[Dark.Pch]

I found a footstool infinite on ROB with Peach

She does not have one on ROB. I tried it. the best thing she can do out of footstools on ROB is this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDqgjVWdy7o

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

She can force getup with weak nair until KO %.

 

[bubbaking]

I wasn't actually trying to argue that the MU is +1, I was basically just saying "well sure you can make your character sound a lot better if you pretend their MUs are better than generally perceived without even referring to results"
I was setting an example

Well, what exactly do you disagree with out of everything I just said? Is there a specific MU that I listed as even or in DDD's favor that you take issue with?

 

[infiniteV115]

stuff

k so I see what you mean about weak bair being useful but I don't think it's as useful as ZSS' (for ZSS anyway) cause that's her most reliable landing option.
We're fine with the dsmash x2 --> both hits of fair for 39% tyvm

And yeah with her rising speed and jump heights she wouldn't be able to hit short characters with rising bairs.

@bubbaking no, keep reading and you'll find my post about it lol. It's like my 2nd or 3rd most recent post before this one

Ninja'd by another one of your posts, no not really bubba. I don't really have many opinions about DDD's MUs that are set in stone. Though I do 'feel' that he loses to Fox.

 

[Dark.Pch]

She can force getup with weak nair until KO %.

You are gonna have to explain how cause im trying this now and it does not work. The only way I would be able to lock rob Is if I footstool cancel to a bair lock. I have never tried this. So I'll check it out now.

if you got a lock with nair, you got it with the strong hit. the weak hit box is the second hit that is ONLY active when cancel float after the first hit box connections. This is what mostly happened to you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNhVVDc_msE

"Now this is something I found out on my own. I know most of you heard and seen the bair lock. There is a few rules to that. But this one negates those rules for some odd reason. That I have yet to crack but w/e. Still good. from 0-11%. Around there. If the enemy falls hard and your near them, you can hit with ANY part of her Nair (spaced or not) and they will be locked. After you hit them the first time, the next set of nairs HAVE to be spaced. or it won't work. As you can see in the video I blow the spacing so could not keep up. Good example of showing what happens if you don't. If they fall hard at mid/high%, you can't lock them. The rule for the lock gets negated for some odd reason. You can do this with bair from behind. First part, any point of the bair, second and beyond, weak hit with bair or the chain gets broken. You can get them with both hits of the bair and lock them too for more damage."

 

[bubbaking]

WELL YOU'RE WRONG!

Lolz, just kidding.

 

[NickRiddle]

Why are people arguing about my demo vid?
Sorry I didn't test it in a normal video, but with no opponent that was the only way for the damn thing to recover, and for quick resets if I ****ed up.
I charged it because I suck at the un-charged one. Just imagine I hit Wolf with a d-smash closer to the edge, and he's at 30 when the paralyzer hits. It's the same ****ing effect...
****ing Seagull...

 

[bubbaking]

I would love to play you and make you think twice. Those most Top/high tier players I beat with Peach, I assume you would make some excuse why you lost cause you are the high tier.

I've already played you, as I said earlier. I don't make any excuses for why I lost. I'm a scrub; I admit this. However, you were pretty salty after you built up my damage on my first stock to 180+% and I just swallowcided you to reset the match.

So lets say you do get through the characters below DDD cause he just gets at them all as you say. Chance are you are gonna run unto more top tiers then anything else. Now if we do the math here

7/9

7= characters that give DDD problems
9= total number of top characters

So what is the % DDD has of comming out of this mess?

2/9

2= characters he takes down
9= top characters He does not.

.286 percent

Thats pretty low bro.

I would like to inquire as to how you arrived at those calculated results, because the correct ratio of characters that give DDD problems to total number of top characters is actually 6/9. Marth beats both Wario and Marth. The MU chart says he also beats Snake, but most of the DDDs and Snakes actually say it's even last time I checked. I'm not saying you're wrong, simply correcting your math there.

Edit:

I would love to play you and make you think twice. Those most Top/high tier players I beat with Peach, I assume you would make some excuse why you lost cause you are the high tier.

Btw, what would you like to prove? That DDDeach is not even and is instead in Peach's favor? 'Cause I never claimed that the MU is an advantageous one for DDD (even though DDD can CG Peach, that isn't everything). I simply said that going even with another potentially high tier char is not that bad.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I've already played you, as I said earlier. I don't make any excuses for why I lost. I'm a scrub; I admit this. However, you were pretty salty after you built up my damage on my first stock to 180+% and I just swallowcided you to reset the match.

I do stupid things all the time, hence my tournament results and the people I have lost too. it's expected I fall for something so weak. I still won reguardless.

I would like to inquire as to how you arrived at those calculated results, because the correct ratio of characters that give DDD problems to total number of top characters is actually 6/9. Marth beats both Wario and Marth. The MU chart says he also beats Snake, but most of the DDDs and Snakes actually say it's even last time I checked. I'm not saying you're wrong, simply correcting your math there.

I take the match up chart with a lil grain of salt. I was under the impression Snake gave DDD problems. But if it is even, then that's your 6th. That's not good odds.

 

[Atomsk_92]

Fox even goes even with DDD.

 

[Coney]

Fox even goes even with DDD.

yepyepyepyepyep

 

[Player-1]

ddd beats fox +4

 

[bubbaking]

I take the match up chart with a lil grain of salt. I was under the impression Snake gave DDD problems. But if it is even, then that's your 6th. That's not good odds.

Kinda funny that you would assume that Snake gave DDD problems and not the other way around. We CG him to heck and back and have stupid GR KO stuff on him. I personally almost 0-to-death'd Fatal during the first 15 seconds of a quarterfinals match in a tourney we both went to in Boston. This MU is only even at Top/High level (which is all that matters). Anywhere else and it's, like, +2 DDD.

 

[Thebest1pj]

Yo bring back the top 5 thread!! Smash boards was live then. Give the people what they want!!
It fell to some troll. That was so lame wth.

I remember now. It was the tlinks. Why didn't they just ban them from the thread or something... -________-

If you speak of the devil.He shall appear.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I feel this way cause may be able do that to him. But I look at a match up from both ends and how Both characters can make it hard for one to abuse the stuff they do. Snake can make it a pain to get in on, You air mobility is slow, your approaches are not really solid. camping with spaced moves and well use of DACUS seems hard to get simple chaingrabs and let it be your saving grace.

So Educate me, how does DDD get in on A good snake? And how difficult of a task is it for him to do so?

 

[Neon!]

k so I see what you mean about weak bair being useful but I don't think it's as useful as ZSS' (for ZSS anyway) cause that's her most reliable landing option.
We're fine with the dsmash x2 --> both hits of fair for 39% tyvm

And yeah with her rising speed and jump heights she wouldn't be able to hit short characters with rising bairs.

I can accept that because I dont have extensive experience with zss, I dont particularly want to argue that dk's bair would theoretically be better for zss than her original. It's not worth arguing, I just wanted to make a point and defend DK's bair as one of the 3 best in the game.

If you're going to quote me next time I would advise include my entire post instead of just writing "stuff," some people might take that offensively.

 

[bubbaking]

So Educate me, how does DDD get in on A good snake? And how difficult of a task is it for him to do so?

It is very difficult indeed, and a lot of damage is usually accumulated along the way, but once we get in, it's a free 30+% chunk of damage that can also easily end up with a lost stock for Snake. Ftilt works wonders. Also, DACUS is a nuisance but it can be baited/predicted and promptly countered with a pivot grab.

Basically, it works like this: We work our way forwards slowly but surely. We can also throw out some Waddle Dees/Doos while we're at it. Grenades can be ftilted. Ftilt is a real saving grace in this MU because of how badly it messes with Snake's spacing. We can safely tack damage onto him, and if there happens to be a grenade on/near him, then even better. Snake will be pushed back and when he is cornered, he has to make his move. He can DACUS and he can also Gatling Combo. The trick is predicting when exactly he will DACUS (or Gatling Combo), but with a well-timed roll, PS, or pivot grab, these escape measures can be countered and punished. Grabs should always equal big damage and snake offstage unless there's a grenade in the immediate vicinity.

Now, once a grab is landed, Snake's life becomes miserable. Snake is one of the easiest regular chars to CG. If he's lucky, he got caught near the ledge, but if not, he can possibly expect to eat 30+% from the CG alone. However, the real mix-ups happen when DDD finally reaches the ledge with his CG and now has to make a decision on what to do with Snake. A noob, inexperienced DDD would probably decide to fthrow Snake immediately, to get the big fthrow damage and send Snake offstage. This isn't necessarily a bad plan of action, but there are so many other juicy options to be had here, especially when Snake is expecting the fthrow. Another obvious option is dthrow > ftilt. This tacks on some damage and generally puts Snake in a bad position near the ledge, but again, there are better things DDD could be doing. You wanna know a really nice option that DDD can utilize? A pummel release. This is not just a regular grab release. This is a release that occurs during a well-timed pummel from DDD. This tech causes Snake to be released off the ledge right in front of DDD. Of course, during the breakout frames, Snake will drop and be situated right below the ledge. This is a TERRIBLE position for Snake! If he tries to Cypher straight up to the stage, he will be grabbed and GR'd to his death. He has to waste his DJ to jump away from the stage and try to Cypher back from there. Of course, there is no way good way for him to get around his extremely bad position and whatever choice he makes will probably result in him dead or badly punished. This is how I almost 0-to-death'd Fatal during our quarterfinals set at Boston. I CG'd him to the edge and pummel released him at the ledge. He tried to recover but I simply grabbed him out of that recovery. Unfortunately, Fatal C4'd himself before he died from my GR and I was unable to capitalize, but the possibility was still there.

Anyway, I'll let our boards' analyses do the talking. We got discussion from a lot of Snakes and DDDs and settled on the even MU.

 

[M@v]

Fox even goes even with DDD.

yepyepyepyepyep

If by even we mean combo punching bag for fox, then ok.

 

[Delta-cod]

As long as you play Yoshi and not what your brawl icon says.

Free money either way.

Yoshi isn't even. No reason for it to be either. I have plenty of Yoshi experience, so let's go. What does Yoshi have to even out this MU?

1) Who is this Yoshi who has given you plenty of experience?

2) Is that Yoshi doing it right?

LOL @ DDD beating a character fifty times more mobile than him, that camps him, has the tools to avoid the grab easily, juggles/combos the **** out of him, harasses his recovery, and doesn't get gimped himself.

Like, if DDD didn't live till 160%+ reliably Yoshi would win the MU for sure.

 

[Sinister Slush]

It'd also be nice if we had a CG on him, or even something to do after grab releasing him.

 

[Dark.Pch]

It is very difficult indeed, and a lot of damage is usually accumulated along the way, but once we get in, it's a free 30+% chunk of damage that can also easily end up with a lost stock for Snake. Ftilt works wonders. Also, DACUS is a nuisance but it can be baited/predicted and promptly countered with a pivot grab.

Basically, it works like this: We work our way forwards slowly but surely. We can also throw out some Waddle Dees/Doos while we're at it. Grenades can be ftilted. Ftilt is a real saving grace in this MU because of how badly it messes with Snake's spacing. We can safely tack damage onto him, and if there happens to be a grenade on/near him, then even better. Snake will be pushed back and when he is cornered, he has to make his move. He can DACUS and he can also Gatling Combo. The trick is predicting when exactly he will DACUS (or Gatling Combo), but with a well-timed roll, PS, or pivot grab, these escape measures can be countered and punished. Grabs should always equal big damage and snake offstage unless there's a grenade in the immediate vicinity.

Now, once a grab is landed, Snake's life becomes miserable. Snake is one of the easiest regular chars to CG. If he's lucky, he got caught near the ledge, but if not, he can possibly expect to eat 30+% from the CG alone. However, the real mix-ups happen when DDD finally reaches the ledge with his CG and now has to make a decision on what to do with Snake. A noob, inexperienced DDD would probably decide to fthrow Snake immediately, to get the big fthrow damage and send Snake offstage. This isn't necessarily a bad plan of action, but there are so many other juicy options to be had here, especially when Snake is expecting the fthrow. Another obvious option is dthrow > ftilt. This tacks on some damage and generally puts Snake in a bad position near the ledge, but again, there are better things DDD could be doing. You wanna know a really nice option that DDD can utilize? A pummel release. This is not just a regular grab release. This is a release that occurs during a well-timed pummel from DDD. This tech causes Snake to be released off the ledge right in front of DDD. Of course, during the breakout frames, Snake will drop and be situated right below the ledge. This is a TERRIBLE position for Snake! If he tries to Cypher straight up to the stage, he will be grabbed and GR'd to his death. He has to waste his DJ to jump away from the stage and try to Cypher back from there. Of course, there is no way good way for him to get around his extremely bad position and whatever choice he makes will probably result in him dead or badly punished. This is how I almost 0-to-death'd Fatal during our quarterfinals set at Boston. I CG'd him to the edge and pummel released him at the ledge. He tried to recover but I simply grabbed him out of that recovery. Unfortunately, Fatal C4'd himself before he died from my GR and I was unable to capitalize, but the possibility was still there.

Anyway, I'll let our boards' analyses do the talking. We got discussion from a lot of Snakes and DDDs and settled on the even MU.

I looked through this. it seems they can both give each other hell. I looked at this match up at high level play, I learned and read all the options they have. How they can abuse weaknesses and the difficulty of it.

From everything that I have learned. I'm gonna have to give it to snake. DDD Can make life hell for snake. But thats only if he gets in. Snake makes it hella hard for DDD to get in. Smart use of grenades and traps, he can reduce the damage of a chain grab and break it early. Or force you to let him go.

if snake needs to close the game, he can. If he needs to force an approach he can. Snake has control of the match most of the time. To do what you have to do to beat snake, you have to get in, and that is hard. that was the tie breaker to me. chances are he will be abusing you more then you will be abusing him.

So with that said, I think snake wins.

 

[DMG]

If Dedede players ever got down that hard as **** infinite on Snake, they'd win hands down. Jesus christ it's hard to do though, it's like trying to kill a fish underwater with a fly swatter.