Official BBR Tier List v7

[da K.I.D.]

for tthe record dp, most people here are agreeing with you right, so the whole 'me against the world' mentality youre putting up isnt really necessary anymore lol.

 

[infiniteV115]

it has 15 frames of landing lag and auto cancels after landing on frames 1-6 or 31.

Notice how it has tons of landing lag and the only times it autocancels are either before the hitbox comes out () or on the very last frame, which really only saves you 1 frame.
So if you hit the opponent's shield with it, you're either not landing immediately after (ie in the air) and they can punish you out of the cooldown, or you're landing immediately after and taking tons of landing lag.
ZSS' bair on the other hand is -6 on block when done properly, and it has very good shield push. It's a great landing option.

Also what are the BKB/KBG values for it? In the hitbox thread for DK it says 20 BKB and 100 KBG, but...ZSS' bair is listed as 33 BKB and 100 KBG (making it stronger).
I can't find the frames for which the hitboxes are out, but it clearly has a sourspot so lasting for a long time isn't that great if the majority of that time is a terrible move.

So that means this claim

If ZSS, Pit, Ness, or TL had DK's bair they would be significantly better, possibly even a spot or two higher on the tier list.

is incorrect for ZSS because if she had DK's bair, she'd have a bair that does the same amount of damage, less knockback and is a completely trash landing option compared to her current bair. Yup, she'd totally be higher on the tier list

I'll admit I don't really know much about Pit's bair other than the fact that it's ridiculously strong (that's why I listed it).
Ness' bair does like 15 or 16%, is an amazing kill move and works very well because of Ness' awesome aerial mobility, has low cooldown and has enough shield push and shield stun so that a rising retreating bair on shield is still fairly safe. Sounds much better than DK's. Also strings well at low percents due to extended hitstun due to being electric.
TL's has very low cooldown, comes out quick and has good range (like DK's bair) allowing it to combo easily at low percents (better than DK's really) and I believe at low percents it true combos into footstool-->dair barring good SDI. It's also a good OoS option and like Ness' is fairly safe when done as a rising and retreating bair on shield.
It lacks the kill power of DK's though, so if it's better than DK's it's not by much imo.

 

[clowsui]

Off topic but V you'd better apply for BBR the next time around, you'd be a great contributor.

 

[infiniteV115]

Yeah I know I would. I'm always just too lazy to apply and it doesn't really seem like the BBR does much outside of the tier list and MU chart, which aren't really that important to me imo.

 

[clowsui]

You already write all these essays anyways, why not just write another?

We're trying to work on other stuff right now, WHICH YOU'D KNOW IF YOU JUST APPLIED GOD

(nah we're working on a ruleset guide atm and we're trying to continue work on our video analysis thread but no one will rip the Impulse vids)

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

The Impulse vids have started going up recently.

Ally vs Dabuz WF went up yesterday

So did V115 vs Swordgard

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Any idea when applications will be open next?

 

[infiniteV115]

I'm so bad vs Snake

 

[clowsui]

IIRC the last time Impulse vids were uploaded (for Melee) they were done like 2 or 3 at a time and then there would be week(s, sometimes) long gaps between uploads.

 

[DeLux]

My favorite part is when Free115 SDI's into the sourspot of Fair and lives and then takes it back the last game

I love Swordie, but shout outs to the new Coalition of Freedom

Clutch until we get to GFs lolol

 

[clowsui]

Also the trick to fighting Snake is to remember that a nade pull limits his range of movement for different durations depending on how he pulls the nade. Once you internalize these differences, juggling Snake + limiting his long/long-mid range game is way easy.

Then again, this might not help ZSS that much, in which case I'd say you should stop playing a bad character and just use Falco like all brownies before you, V.

Spoiler

no offense intended by the brownies thing, i'll remove it if you think it's a racial slur <3

 

[bubbaking]

Likewise for my Puff knowledge.
Except that isn't really stuff that can be explained, just shown.

And it doesn't exist...

There was a time where pit was over DK and Peach. At that current time Peach/DK have done more in tournament then Pit. Yet Pit got that crazy boost on the tier list. reasons like this I just can't agree with some of the tings the BBR say. Even if it is just only me alone that feels that way. it just makes me think people just look and pay more attention to the characters that matter to them. And I don't feel thats a legit way to make a tier list or state how a match up goes. You just don't do that, it's not legit.

In the case of Pit I can't speak for the earlier BBR but I think that was a mistake that we won't repeat again.

Wait a minute, Pit is still way above DK, which makes sense if you ask me. I could also see Pit being above Peach. What's wrong with that? He has recent results, especially in Japan, and theoretically, he has the frame data to compete with the best. Argued this before the most recent list was made. I still think Pit is potentially High Tier material, and I even predicted this recent rise in the tier list he had, although it wasn't big enough, imho.

 

[clowsui]

I think Pit's a better character than DK but I think our rationale back then was poor (iirc). I'll look back there now to confirm but I had an issue w process not result.

 

[DeLux]

I had an issue with "borderline". I still don't understand what that even means

 

[infiniteV115]

Not offended by the brownie thing at all lol.
Why would you tell me to stop playing a bad character, and then advise a worse character like Falco? >.> XD
And I was just bad vs Snake cause I have like no Snake exp. Everytime I play Snake in bracket, I don't get to play Snake again for like 3 months. And there's only 1 Snake player in my region and he's not even that good and he goes to school in Egypt so he's only here for like a few months at a time.
I was also trying way too hard to SDI the ftilts behind Snake. Shoulda spotdodged more.
w/e I won dunno why I'm complaining lawl

Borderline = 'kinda okayish but not really imo' imo

 

[clowsui]

I just saw your post about SlayerZ. Kid's incredible, same w lloD but they've both got the Peach curse where they're hella dope but go to 0 tournies.

Man I'm not sure about Falco being worse than ZSS...

Also I play 0 Snakes also, unless you count wifi.

But Marth isn't even a character on wifi so I guess what I'm saying is just get better or continue to suffer the wrath of Solid Snake on Zero Suit action.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I had an issue with "borderline". I still don't understand what that even means

"It was harder than ever to decide whether the characters in D should be grouped with high or mid and we decided to introduce the borderline tier"

I just saw your post about SlayerZ. Kid's incredible, same w lloD but they've both got the Peach curse where they're hella dope but go to 0 tournies.

That's why I feel if I can't get over my mental problem, He could do it. But he rarely goes to any tournies. I would have to teach this stuff to someone who is active.

 

[bubbaking]

Hey guys, I've been thinking about DDD's placement on the tier list, and I definitely don't think he should fall out of High Tier. Consider this: If anyone were to ever hold the first ever High Tier and under only tournament, DDD would ****. I know this kind of logic sounds really weird, but think about it. He only has one -2 in the tiers and a couple random -1's that I could argue are actually even (Sheik is 0 but Sheilda is -1, wth?). DDD automatically becomes a broken overlord.

#RandomRevelations

 

[infiniteV115]

Yeah that was a joke about ZSS > Flaoc
And yeah, getting better has been the plan since day 1.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

And there's only 1 Snake player in my region and he's not even that good and he goes to school in Egypt so he's only here for like a few months at a time.

DDM plays Snake as wel

 

[infiniteV115]

Oh right him too

If there was a high tier and under tournament, ZSS would win. She'd be the only one with no losing MUs -.-

 

[bubbaking]

Ally should count too, shouldn't he? Isn't all of Canada one region?

Oh right him too

If there was a high tier only tournament, ZSS would win. She'd be the only one with no losing MUs -.-

Well, yeah, but GF's would be between ZSS and DDD (if not ZSS dittos, lolz). ZSS has no losing MUs, but that doesn't preclude DDD from being in the same high tier, especially if ZSS is his only real losing MU.

 

[bubbaking]

Sorry, double post...

 

[Grim Tuesday]

And it doesn't exist...

Outside of me (and SoulPech? Does he even still use Puff? Intentional namesearch), the Puff metagame is SH Fair + Pivot Grab.

I can at least demonstrate how it isn't as linear as that, even if she isn't some super technical character like Peach.

Hey guys, I've been thinking about DDD's placement on the tier list, and I definitely don't think he should fall out of High Tier. Consider this: If anyone were to ever hold the first ever High Tier and under only tournament, DDD would ****. I know this kind of logic sounds really weird, but think about it. He only has one -2 in the tiers and a couple random -1's that I could argue are actually even (Sheik is 0 but Sheilda is -1, wth?). DDD automatically becomes a broken overlord.

#RandomRevelations

Okay you can put him as #1 on your "high tier and under" tier list.

The rest of us will keep playing standard Brawl, where DDD is terrible and loses -3 to MK and ICs, and -2 to Olimar, Diddy Kong, Falco and Pikachu.

 

[bubbaking]

He's a tier barrier, the minimum required for a High Tier placing. He should be the bottom of High Tier but still inside it. With that regard, TL should drop to BL tier, so it can be called.......TL TIER!

#BadJokes

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Tier barriers aren't actually things we strive for, you know.
It just sometimes works out like that, by coincidence.

 

[bubbaking]

We can't change Sakurai's bad decisions. DDD already exists and it can't be denied that he only loses to (some) people above him while destroying everyone below him. It may be a bad design, but I think it is still indicative of a High Tier character. Beating key Top Tiers, like Snake (arguable), Marth, and Wario (badly) also help, although probably not much.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Beating low tiers badly really doesn't matter much at all.
He loses BADLY to about half of the people above him, including an almost unwinnable match-up against the most popular character in the game; don't understate his flaws.

 

[SoulPech]

Outside of me (and SoulPech? Does he even still use Puff? Intentional namesearch),

LOOOOOOOOL I don't know how to namesearch

I still use Puff.

 

[bubbaking]

Beating low tiers badly really doesn't matter much at all.
He loses BADLY to about half of the people above him, including an almost unwinnable match-up against the most popular character in the game; don't understate his flaws.

Everyone below him is more than just Low Tier. DDD also has a +3 against a high BL tier (so arguably high tier) and two Mid tiers and a +4 against an increasingly popular Mid tier. The only other chars with that kind of coverage are MK and the ICs, and they still lack +4's on relevant chars.

Edit: And how the heck isn't DDD:ROB a +3 for DDD? We get so much stupid crap on him, it's not even funny.

 

[infiniteV115]

DDD loses to most characters above him, not some.
He also loses to Fox, and arguably Sheilda and Sheik.

 

[bubbaking]

He's even with Sheik. Idk why the heck Sheilda is a +1 against him. What Sheik in his right mind would switch willfully into a bad MU, just to (hopefully) secure a kill? That is one part of the MU chart that I disagree with and it should not be taken seriously into the consideration of a character's, like DDD's, placement. I think the BBR just wanted to support their whole "Sheilda does better than both Sheik and Zelda" nonsense, so they gave her random MUs that she does better than Sheik. It's practically an example of the BBR theorycrafting even harder than I, or anyone else, ever could. I have played against a decent Sheik in my region (Dcold) and our record is about even.

Edit: Wow, I just noticed that I kept saying PMBR instead of BBR, lolz!

 

[Dabuz]

The Impulse vids have started going up recently.

Ally vs Dabuz WF went up yesterday

So did V115 vs Swordgard

FINALLY! Picked the perfect time to check this thread it seems :D

 

[bubbaking]

Besides, Fox is a decent character. No shame in (very slightly) losing to him. Lucario also loses to Fox, and Fox also goes even with ZSS. Some people even believe that Fox goes even with MK (isn't he some kind of MK check/counter in Japan?). On top of that, if Fox really does beat DDD, I believe it's really slight. I've personally never had any problems against a Fox, but then again, I probably have yet to play a spectacular Fox. He's not Falco. He can't stop our approach and he's easily gimped. I have no qualms about going offstage to face his Illusion because I have no fear of being meteor'd. All our grabs equal him offstage, too, so a Fox dying near 0 isn't hard to believe.

 

[infiniteV115]

Sheilda at worst does just as well as solo Sheik/solo Zelda. If she does worse then that's because of not using Sheilda correctly.
The idea behind Sheilda is that you play to each character's strengths and try to eliminate their weaknesses (start off with Zelda against characters that can CG Sheik, use Zelda at high percents to net easier kills, start off with Sheik against characters she can ftilt lock the **** out of etc)
If there's some MU where you feel switching to Zelda provides absolutely no advantage over staying Sheik, then Sheilda = Sheik for that MU.

I don't see what's so hard to understand about this. I mean, do you even have decent experience against any Sheildas?

Uh, all grabs = Fox offstage? You're aware DDD can't CG Fox, right?

 

[bubbaking]

You're ignoring the fact that Zelda can't switch into Sheik safely and vice versa. You start off the match as Zelda? Congrats, enjoy being ***** while you try to find a good time to transform. Actually pulled off a transformation? I hope you enjoy my super high-powered fsmash punish. Planning to secure an easier kill with Zelda? You might as well stick with Sheik and fish for a DACUS or something. I've played frequently against A Sheilda (whom I actually consider as a Sheilda), and he's not good at all, but he's actually the closest thing that I would consider to an actual Sheilda. What Sheilda has actually played out the Sheilda:DDD MU at high level? This is why I find it to be mostly theorycrafting, at least concerning this specific MU.

I was never referring to CGs when I talked about throwing Fox offstage. I was talking specifically about our launchers, our side throws. Fox is a lightweight and a fast faller. A single throw that sends him offstage equals Fox in a bad position. It's not hard to get him offstage with a throw on most stages, and if we're ever not in a position to get him there in a single throw, we can attempt to TC him closer to the edge with dthrow.

Edit: Note that I didn't say Sheilda:DDD is worse than Sheik:DDD, because it simply can't be, but what actually proves that it's better? The benefits that you'd get off of switching are totally counteracted by the benefits I get off of punishing your attempts to reap your benefits. Like, it's true that you might get something out of it in the long run, but it doesn't equate to a clean MU advantage jump.

Edit 2: A good DDD player does not need his CG to be good in a MU. DDD can potentially TC other chars to oblivion. I've seen other DDD's do it and I've done it myself. It's partly why I believe that DDD:Falco is actually a -1 and not a -2. It's like Sheik in Melee. In NTSC, she could CG so many chars. In PAL, they changed it so she couldn't CG anyone anymore (and her uair lost all of its killing power), but did she drop in tiers at all? Absolutely not! She actually rose. She can't CG you anymore? Well ok, fine, she'll just TC you to death. It's literally the same scenario, but with a little bit of a worse char for DDD. He may lose the CG, but there's no way you can avoid the TC. It's a phase that you absolutely have to fight through.

 

[infiniteV115]

Knock opponent offstage --> transform while they're trying to recover. Works especially well against DDD cause he's most mobile during his upB anyway XD
Take opponent to PS1/PS2/Delfino or something.

I mean it's no wonder you think Sheilda isn't much different from Sheik if you think the Sheilda player is going to transform in a position where DDD can punish with an fsmash

 

[bubbaking]

Knock opponent offstage --> transform while they're trying to recover. Works especially well against DDD cause he's most mobile during his upB anyway XD
Take opponent to PS1/PS2/Delfino or something.

I mean it's no wonder you think Sheilda isn't much different from Sheik if you think the Sheilda player is going to transform in a position where DDD can punish with an fsmash

Like, it's true that you might get something out of it in the long run, but it doesn't equate to a clean MU advantage jump.

My point is that, ideally, you're going to be fighting an even MU most of the time. Sheik's gonna have to work really hard to knock DDD off to the point that she gets a clean enough break to transform and not get punished. Yeah, fsmash mighta been a bit overzealous, but dsmash, usmash, utilt, dtilt, bthrow, fair, and bair are all a bit more realistic and they're all high-damaging, moderate-to-high KB moves. This whole time you're fighing DDD as Sheik, if the DDD is decent, he's been tacking on damage too, so by the time you switch, you might just be meeting your death.

So, first you're assuming that the MU is in your favor because you'll ever get a chance to transform at a time when the rewards cleanly outweigh the risks. Secondly, you now have to play so on-point with Zelda that you actually net your planned kill, because the moment you switch, you are now fighting a battle where you are constantly disadvantaged at neutral. I'm not saying that your logic and reasoning for the MU is wrong, but I'm saying that it's not enough to boost the MU from the 0 that Sheik actually started with in the first place. Sheilda probably does have her own way of doing the MU, and it might work, but I'm not buying a +1 from that. DDD has as many chances to kill Zelda as Zelda has to kill him.

Edit: Stages - Alright, I can see the transform strat working on PS1 because of tree camping, so for the purpose of Devil's Advocate in argument, assume that I'm banning that stage. I would do it anyway if it really allowed the Sheilda strategy to work to the point that Sheilda solidly beat DDD. There are no longer any stages where transforming is safe without knocking DDD extremely far offstage. PS2's earth transformation isn't nearly as safe for that as PS1's fire transformation. Delfino doesn't offer a single point during the stage's movement that would offer Sheilda a safe haven for transforming.

There's a second point I would like to make: If Zelda kills DDD with her lightning kicks (the only way I can see Zelda killing DDD early enough and in a way that would make switching to Zelda profitable), then he dies out the side and comes back quickly. Zelda never got the chance to switch back. She now has to fight a very uphill battle while trying to someday realize the chance when she can switch back to an even MU. She also can't switch back safely upon dying because the transformation outlasts the invincibility. Of course, she could just decide to forego safety and simply transform if she is at low %'s, since DDD can't CG Sheik, but that would definitely result in a very highly damaging punish (like fsmash). Btw, DDD's fully charged fsmash kills upwards of 30% on most stages, so you have to make sure you're really low on damage.

My sincere question to you is: Do you know any high level Sheildas who have actually played out this MU against a high level DDD, or am I right in assuming that this MU is actually based entirely on theorycrafting and not on an actual tourney match or MM done in some place at some point in time?

 

[Seagull Joe]

DDD loses to most characters above him, not some.
He also loses to Fox, and arguably Sheilda and Sheik.

/ do NOT beat .

 

[infiniteV115]

It's pretty much just theorycraft, yeah. I'm fairly certain the only person that actually uses Sheilda (ie both Zelda and Sheik in the same match) is Ed (aka ScaryLB59). I remember seeing a match of a different Sheilda vs some DDD and the Sheilda did pretty well, but idk who it was.

Oh apparently it was Fuujin vs MetalMusicMan (and it was just Zelda, not Sheilda)....so yeah let's ignore that lawl