Official BBR Tier List v7

[bubbaking]

This game would be so much better if landing with an airdodge had the same effect as landing from SpecialFall.

Can someone please explain the significance of this statement? I'm not too good with terms like "specialfall" and all that...

I realize you weren't asking for advice, but you need to land with bair more than you land with dair.

Yeah, I know. I also need to stop FFing my dairs unless I know I'm actually high enough to not land with the move. To be fair, those vids are quite old. I've improved a lot since then. I bair more and I AC more of my dairs.

let's talk about how diddy's fair is quite possibly the best move in the game

Only with a banana in the vicinity, so that actually makes banana the best move in the game.

 

[clowsui]

no .

Exactly what you were saying to Chris4ever until he finally took mercy on your poor little white boy soul.

 

[Dark.Pch]

@Dark.Pch
Good luck. Hope to see good things from you. Don't get too discouraged if you hit sangs along the way!

The only thing that would get in my way is my mental problem. Which is my heavy anxiety along with tourny nerves. Which will hold me back from ever doing anything good in tournaments. But if I am sadly never able to beast with what I know, that does not mean I can't have other peach players that don't suffer from what I do use what I know. I think I know 2 (possible) 3 Peach players that just might be able to pull this off, if I can't.

 

[Myollnir]

Imo, Squirtle's F-air, which is somewhat similar to Diddy's F-air, is better (but still isn't the best F-air in the game).

Good luck Dark.Pch. It's nice to see someone motivated like this.

 

[infiniteV115]

Oh yeah, Marth and Lucario fair are pretty damn good too.

 

[bubbaking]

Marth's is better.

MK's fair is also really good, even though it's not his best aerial.

 

[Squeaker101]

I'm new to the "competitive" scene, so I'm curious, what are these tier lists based on? For the most part, I understand FGs, as far as hitboxes, and frame data go.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

tournament results with a hint of theory-craft.

 

[infiniteV115]

It's in the OP. Tournament results (ie how much $ each character has won, as well as total $ won/popularity of character), votes from members of the BBR (ie opinions of people) and the MU chart (mostly the result of discussion/debate/opinions)

So mostly the opinions of the BBR (and the people on the panels for the MU chart), and then it gets affected by recent results.

 

[bubbaking]

Although, the 'recent results' part is a bit fuzzy... Somehow, it made Olimar become #2. Wario is also still Top Tier.

 

[Squeaker101]

Alright, I guess that makes sense. It's different though, the other FG I play is based on the characters hitbox, frame data, and character tools. I guess it's pretty much the same thing, seeing as how it's based off of tournaments.

 

[bubbaking]

The thing is: Super Smash Bros isn't really a fighting game. Never was, hopefully never will be.

 

[infiniteV115]

That would have to depend on your definition of a fighting game
As for Oli being #2, that's probably largely cause this tier list was made shortly after Apex 2012, where Nietono got 2nd and made $1760, which is a lot of money going towards Olimar's success

 

[Ussi]

Yo Ike has only two amazing (as in can be considered for best moves in game) moves, jab and bair.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Also, Olimar being #2 probably is wrong, but it isn't terribly egregious. He's top 4 at least, very strong. It's not like when Wario was #3.

 

[bubbaking]

Or when DDD was #3...

 

[bubbaking]

Yo Ike has only two amazing (as in can be considered for best moves in game) moves, jab and bair.

Isn't Falco's jab better than Ike's? As bairs go, I'd have to say that both DDD's and Marth's bairs are probably better than Ike's, maybe G&W's too.

Edit: Sorry, double post.

 

[infiniteV115]

Marth's bair isn't that good really. Good, but not fantastic.
I'd say the best bairs in this game are like...wow looking at the tier list it belongs to a bunch of non top tiers (imo)
ZSS, TL, DDD, Wolf, Pit, DK, Ike, Ness all have really good bairs. With Pit/Ike/DK being the worst of these. All the others are good in different ways.

 

[Neon!]

let's talk about how diddy's fair is quite possibly the best move in the game

DK's bair says hi.

 

[Ussi]

Ike's bair is safe, kills, has a good disjoint, and fast what more do you want?

Ike's jab has more follow ups and leads to more damage than Falco's

 

[da K.I.D.]

i think ikes fair is better than his bair, but its close.

falcos jab is one frame faster, and can lead into his cg at low percents but ikes jab has more range, does more damage, has a bigger hit box for interupting things and combos into stupid things that only get stupider the higher in percent you get.

jab jab grab back throw dash attack at low percents

jab up tilt at high percent.

jab into itself at mid percents.

jab to turn around fall through platform bair if youre feeling especially flashy.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Peach's bair can do 21% damage while her nair can 23%. A 3 anda 6 frame move. Gg.

 

[infiniteV115]

1 bair on it's own does 21% when fresh? O.o

 

[bubbaking]

Ike's bair is safe, kills, has a good disjoint, and fast what more do you want?

That's DDD's bair in a nutshell. DDD's bair also belongs to a multi-jump char who can use it for gimping really well, so even in light of the whole package, DDD's bair is awesome and is probably better than Ike's.

 

[infiniteV115]

I don't think DDD's bair is safe on shield though. Ike's seems safer.

 

[bubbaking]

I play against an Ike main all the time. We punish each other's bairs on shield with our own bairs.

 

[infiniteV115]

Yeah but how do I know you both don't just suck?

 

[bubbaking]

You don't, but look at the frame data. Ike's bair has about as much, if not more, lag as DDD's. Also, DDD's bair is pretty safe if spaced while rising. Like, SH bair OoS. If it's done immediately while rising and jumping away, it's extremely hard to punish it. Attempts usually end up with you being baired again in the face.

Edit: And to kinda account for my 'skill,' I play with John12346 all the time. Most of the games are really close, and I've beaten him a few times, including on his famed, preferred CP (Frigate) that he claims he's nigh unbeatable on.

Edit2: And I've gotten some placings at a couple tournaments with other good players in them.

 

[infiniteV115]

That's not how being safe on shield works. For one, more knockback = more shield stun for the opponent, not to mention that you have to take into account autocancels (pretty sure Ike's bair autocancels), spacing and whether the aerial is being retreated or not. And shield push.

Ike's may have a bit more cooldown than DDD's but if he autocancels it earlier than DDD's ends and it does more knockback than DDD's (so it does more shield stun) then it could easily be safer.

 

[Dark.Pch]

1 bair on it's own does 21% when fresh? O.o

Oh yea. But there is a secret to it that a lot don't know about. Cause people always wanna listen to the media instead of doing their research. This also makes her shield pressure even more of a pain to deal with.

 

[bubbaking]

I'd say the best bairs in this game are like...wow looking at the tier list it belongs to a bunch of non top tiers (imo)
ZSS, TL, DDD, Wolf, Pit, DK, Ike, Ness all have really good bairs. With Pit/Ike/DK being the worst of these. All the others are good in different ways.

Wait a sec, shouldn't Falco's bair be on that list? It's fast, it kills, and it AC's in a single SH, I believe.

That's not how being safe on shield works. For one, more knockback = more shield stun for the opponent, not to mention that you have to take into account autocancels (pretty sure Ike's bair autocancels), spacing and whether the aerial is being retreated or not. And shield push.

Ike's may have a bit more cooldown than DDD's but if he autocancels it earlier than DDD's ends and it does more knockback than DDD's (so it does more shield stun) then it could easily be safer.

That's true, but being "safer" on shield doesn't make Ike's bair "safe". It's still very punishable, especially since DDD's bair range directly contests Ike's bair range. And Ike's bair may AC, but DDD's doesn't even need to AC. DDD can fit two bairs in a single SH (DK-style). This all also factors into a move's safety, and it's why I feel like DDD's bair is safer than Ike's.

Edit: To clarify, if Ike bairs someone's shield and he feels like he can punish it OoS, Ike can't really stop it without landing first. DDD can just bair again in that situation, stuffing most OoS attempts.

 

[infiniteV115]

Falco's bair is definitely good, but I don't think it's that good. It kills fairly late for a 'kill move' and with Falco's horizontal mobility it doesn't even really hit that often. Not to mention being easily punishable on block.

Also yeah I just looked it up. Ike's bair is -17 on block (ie best case scenario for Ike is when the opponent gets 17 more frames than he does) and I couldn't find it for DDD's but DDD's doesn't seem that unsafe on block.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Falco's dair is afast move, but does not kill will. Falco have to use that move up in the air with his opponents to land a good play. best gets the job done off the stage near the kill zone.

 

[Alacion]

When you land the first hit of bair/nair while in your float, by releasing the float immediately, the hitboxes for Peach's weak hit activate.

It's 14%+7% and 13%+10% I think. The weak hit for nair won't connect at mid-high percents.

Alternatively, Zelda's lightning kicks can do 21%.

 

[infiniteV115]

Define 'immediately', does it have to be frame perfect?
And does the float have to be cancelled into the ground? Or can this be high in the air as well?

 

[Alacion]

Um there's a decent amount of time to release float. Within a minute or two, you can probably master it. The float doesn't need to be cancelled on the ground.

Ask Captain L, he loves the shield pressure from double hit aerials <3

 

[da K.I.D.]

I didnt realize you guys learned how to control that.

but yea, i would definitely give that character another look if she could hit people with that consistently.

 

[KRDsonic]

Wait. I thought Peach's double-hit Bair and Nair was common knowledge o.O

 

[Ussi]

Knew it existed, didn't know how to do

 

[Neon!]

Marth's bair isn't that good really. Good, but not fantastic.
I'd say the best bairs in this game are like...wow looking at the tier list it belongs to a bunch of non top tiers (imo)
ZSS, TL, DDD, Wolf, Pit, DK, Ike, Ness all have really good bairs. With Pit/Ike/DK being the worst of these. All the others are good in different ways.

Not listing DK's bair as one of top 3 best in the game is ludicrous. It has more horizontal range than DDD's, can combo into itself, and can kill when fresh. It comes out on frame 7, extends for 9 frames and ends on frame 31, it has 15 frames of landing lag and auto cancels after landing on frames 1-6 or 31.

If ZSS, Pit, Ness, or TL had DK's bair they would be significantly better, possibly even a spot or two higher on the tier list.