Official BBR Tier List v7

[Dark.Pch]

Ok, thanks for refreshing my memory on their jab speed.

 

[infiniteV115]

I believe DDD's uair is the most disjointed (aerial?) attack in the game, IIRC. Not so much his dair because he holds the hammer close to his body.

Samus' zair is probably more disjointed
And GW uair lmao

 

[Seagull Joe]

uair?

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Are you talking vertical axis, because Ike Fair and Marth Bair certainly look bigger to me.

 

[Dark.Pch]

DDD's upair:

ZSS Uair:

Initial

Middle

Almost complete

Near the end - this is the hitbox that produces the sourspot uair

Now that I look at ZSS up air, more things are making sense the middle part of her upair is what is hard to beat I dont think that comes out on frame 4. The initial, nearly complete and ending hit box of her Upair is what makes her more vulnerable and her hurt box is easily sniped. This also explains why her move can get snuffed out of trade hits in air battles. I can use this to better ways to time my moves and land safe to reduce air harassment.

 

[infiniteV115]

The first 3 pictures are the hitboxes on frames 4, 5 and 6, the 4th picture is the hitbox on frames 7-8 (sourspot) so the first 3 are the ones that matter.
You can check out the frame data here.
Also, during either the 2nd or 3rd picture, there's an extra hitbox that isn't visible in this picture (assuming you got the pictures from here, it clearly says the following)

UAir:
-This move has an extra hitbubble that is created for one frame and then deleted. This bubble is big, but it occupies an area which the kick had swept across the frame before. It is not a stronger or a weaker attack. Scoring a hit with it is nearly impossible and completely pointless, but it's there. Pause the game about when ZSS is directly upside down to see it.
-The largest of the hitbubbles does shrink a bit once the attack goes from its strong version to its weak version.

I believe you can see the extra hitbox in this video at 4:04 (cause it looks bigger vertically here than it does in the 2nd pic, and there appears to be one more hitbox) but it doesn't seem to be in an area that was already covered by the move, as said in the quote.

Oh yeah, the reason that the hitbox doesn't appear in the pictures is because the hack that allowed for this hitbox pics wasn't able to visualize hitboxes that aren't attached to ZSS' bones. Compare the pics for her other moves to the video and you'll see.

Also, I know the 2nd pic looks the biggest because of the vertical disjoint but keep in mind the horizontal/diagonal disjoint in the first 2 pics as well...it's a big part of why ZSS' uair beats a lot of other big dairs (like Falco's, Lucario's, and probably Peach's); it's a lot bigger horizontally.
It may seem like the reason that it trades so often is because the hitboxes in the first and last picture aren't that great vertically, but for one the sourspot is like...never used as a rising aerial. It's used as a landing AC aerial to connect into a rising sweetspot uair.
And for the first pic, if that thing trades with a dair then that's because of poor spacing on the ZSS' part. As for trading with fairs/bairs/maybe some nairs, then yeah that makes sense.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Well, I sure learn something new today.

And yea, thats why i said the second pic is the one that is the problem to beat. it's easier to trade and beat her up on frame 4 and 6. Frame 5 is the problem. So if she gets beat or trade. its usually cause of frame 4 or 6, where here hurt box is easier to reach.

 

[Neon!]

Well I mean, not just Ryo. San too and among other ike mains.
I dunno about DKs outside of Will and beating richbrown back from WHOBO 3 with 185 ledgegrabs.
Literally, both characters are a big shrug to me, but I know a tad of results for Ike. (and that there's porbably more Ike mains compared to DK, since 7 of them beat Yoshi's *** in the crew battle back from APEX 2012)

Unless you don't know about Ryo's wins at WHOBO 4?

Ryo and Will both placed 5th in regular singles at whobo 4, I know that will recently beat Keitaro and beat Ryo at whobo 4 as well. His most notable win from this year would probably be Mikehaze but has also taken sets from Logic, Bloodcross, Doom, Pelca, False and Mr. Eric, if you're counting as far back as whobo 3 he also beat Trela and Illmatic there as well.

 

[bubbaking]

I meant it's easiest to react to Zelda's upsmash with. The other dairs that beat Zelda's upsmash aren't out for very long and have to be speaced really well.

Dedede's dair is amazing, I never thought otherwise.

Oh, my bad...

DDD Fair starts on frame nine. That's slower then Zelda. ganons and links jabs, which I believe are around 7 frames. To me average speed of a move is 5-6 frames. Good speed of a move is 3-4, anything below that is just broken.

DDD is open for 20 frames before he can pull out another dair. So on wiff, he can get punish or give the enemy enough time to break away from his range if need too. Its an easy punish if blocked He is in that dair animation for 47 frames total before he can do anything. This can leave him easy to hit his hurt box on the side of DDD where he is hella open.

(Jump/Grab OoS) -22, (Normal Shield Drop) -15

You really are not as safe as you think you are. What you stated here is more of a gimmick and messing with ones head. it'snot something that is legit and safe to rely on.

Metaknight dair frame data:

DAIR
frame breakdown:
1-3 startup
4-5 hitbox out
6-25 aerial cooldown

It's generally agreed that MK's dair is a pretty fast move and is NOT a gimmick. Dair camping is a legitimate strategy that top MKs commonly use. Now, if MK dair's 20 frames of lag isn't slow, then why is DDD dair's identical 20 frames of lag suddenly so bad?

I can tell you personally that using dair is pretty safe, especially if done while rising. AC dairs are safe, too. DDD doesn't necessarily want to be above his opponent, but he's definitely not at a huge disadvantage, like Marth, Peach, or Snake. Why would I care that the opponent can hit the side of my hurtbox? I'm using dair because I'm above my opponent or am moving into a position above my opponent. As far as I know, no regular move is gonna break through that dair and hit me.

You may know a bunch of stuff about Peach, but I know about my own character. DDD's dair is not a gimmick.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Oh, my bad...



Metaknight dair frame data:


It's generally agreed that MK's dair is a pretty fast move and is NOT a gimmick. Dair camping is a legitimate strategy that top MKs commonly use. Now, if MK dair's 20 frames of lag isn't slow, then why is DDD dair's identical 20 frames of lag suddenly so bad?

I can tell you personally that using dair is pretty safe, especially if done while rising. AC dairs are safe, too. DDD doesn't necessarily want to be above his opponent, but he's definitely not at a huge disadvantage, like Marth, Peach, or Snake. Why would I care that the opponent can hit the side of my hurtbox? I'm using dair because I'm above my opponent or am moving into a position above my opponent. As far as I know, no regular move is gonna break through that dair and hit me.

You may know a bunch of stuff about Peach, but I know about my own character. DDD's dair is not a gimmick.

You misunderstood my post then. I was not saying that dair is gimmick move. And Im point out that move is not as safe as you think it is. I have punished DDD dairs alot in many situation.

Again, in general, its not as safe as you make it out to be. That is my point.

And as for meta, he is no different when that move is blocked. I have punished him out of shield. its hard to punish him from the front since my moves are slow. Peach nair is 3 frames bit I have to be hella close. If I have my back turned to meta, thats when .I punish him hard with bair.

Any more can be made safe though. With good spacing. Good luck trying to punish a spaced fair from ike on shield for example. Though there are other moves that I can be close to the enemy and hit on shield and they still can't punish me for it, Like Peach dair and bair.

Ether way hope that clears things up.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It's generally agreed that MK's dair is a pretty fast move and is NOT a gimmick. Dair camping is a legitimate strategy that top MKs commonly use. Now, if MK dair's 20 frames of lag isn't slow, then why is DDD dair's identical 20 frames of lag suddenly so bad?

I can tell you personally that using dair is pretty safe, especially if done while rising. AC dairs are safe, too. DDD doesn't necessarily want to be above his opponent, but he's definitely not at a huge disadvantage, like Marth, Peach, or Snake. Why would I care that the opponent can hit the side of my hurtbox? I'm using dair because I'm above my opponent or am moving into a position above my opponent. As far as I know, no regular move is gonna break through that dair and hit me.

You may know a bunch of stuff about Peach, but I know about my own character. DDD's dair is not a gimmick.

MK can be in the air, jump backwards and dair, and the backwards momentum + height gained + option to fast-fall + 1,000,000 fast options he can use after it give it way more versatility than DDD's dair.

 

[DMG]

Dedede is also committed longer to the move. MK Dair is swing and done, Dedede spins his hammer for awhile and if you are missing you are doing the move for longer/easier to punish. Then you have issues with people SDIing the hits and then hitting him too.

 

[bubbaking]

Ok, sure, but DDD's dair can kill, especially if you clip someone with the last hit by surprise. DDD can also use his dair to "force" his way down through his opponent, like if he needs to land NOW. I'm not saying it's a great move or even a good move, but I am pointing out very useful things it has that MK's dair does not which make up for the speed of the move (which isn't that bad).

 

[Xubble]

MK's dair gimps. If you get hit with it offstage (and it's definitely not unlikely), you're gonna die. It's also because of his dair that MK sticks low to the ground and dair camps. He can ALWAYS land whenever he feels like it because he's so safe. Using Dedede's dair to get a landing is fairly risky, especially if you land in the middle of it and get even MORE lag. His dair drags the opponent with him until the last hitbox, and it's very possible to SDI out of it before he hits the ground. He's better off using a b-reversed Swallow or even nair to secure a landing.

 

[bubbaking]

Ryo and Will both placed 5th in regular singles at whobo 4, I know that will recently beat Keitaro and beat Ryo at whobo 4 as well. His most notable win from this year would probably be Mikehaze but has also taken sets from Logic, Bloodcross, Doom, Pelca, False and Mr. Eric, if you're counting as far back as whobo 3 he also beat Trela and Illmatic there as well.

Mr. Eric is not that good.....at all. If I can beat him, then he's a scrub because I suck. He should not be cited as a notable person that Will beat, not when comparing Will's wins to Ryo's wins.

uair?

I'm pretty sure that DDD's uair reaches further than Marth's.

Are you talking vertical axis, because Ike Fair and Marth Bair certainly look bigger to me.

Imagine DDD turned sideways while uairing. I still think that outranges both of those moves you listed.

Samus' zair is probably more disjointed
And GW uair lmao

Yeah, it probably would have been more correct for me to say that DDD's uair is the most disjointed uair that has a damaging hitbox. I still feel like it's the most disjointed out of all the standard aerials, though (zairs not included).

DDD's upair

ZSS Uair:

Initial

Middle

Almost complete

Near the end - this is the hitbox that produces the sourspot uair

ZSS's uair hitboxes are large, but they're not as disjointed as DDD's because her leg is reaching out with them. DDD's uair is one of the few hammer attacks for which he outstretches his arms while holding the hammer by the hilt (the others being fair, ftilt, fsmash, and usmash).

 

[Neon!]

Mr. Eric is not that good.....at all. If I can beat him, then he's a scrub because I suck. He should not be cited as a notable person that Will beat, not when comparing Will's wins to Ryo's wins.

I was under the impression that Mr. Eric was an accomplished Rob main, maybe he just doesnt like the ddd matchup. This was just a continuation of the argument that if Ike's recent wins are indicative of a borderline tier then DK's wins are as well.

I guess Ike and DK are just one of those characters that are bad in theory but great in practice. The same could be said for Lucas and Ness.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

As far as I'm aware, there are two players that use "Mr. Eric" as their tag.

 

[bubbaking]

No, those two are actually bad.

As far as I'm aware, there are two players that use "Mr. Eric" as their tag.

Ahhh, that would make sense then, 'cause this guy definitely seemed like a Marth main.

 

[infiniteV115]

ZSS's uair hitboxes are large, but they're not as disjointed as DDD's because her leg is reaching out with them. DDD's uair is one of the few hammer attacks for which he outstretches his arms while holding the hammer by the hilt (the others being fair, ftilt, fsmash, and usmash).

Trust me bro, it's disjointed. iirc there are no feet/ankle hurtboxes, dunno where her highest hurtbox is though.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Imagine DDD turned sideways while uairing. I still think that outranges both of those moves you listed.

That's a D3 head length vs an Ike body length.

Can't find Marth's hitbox data anywhere, but I'd bet on it.

 

[bubbaking]

That's a D3 head length vs an Ike body length.

Can't find Marth's hitbox data anywhere, but I'd bet on it.

Hmmm, I'm not gonna say you're wrong, but are you factoring in Ike's hands? I can't see them in that hitbox picture, but they'd take away from the disjoint since his arms past his elbows are 'inside' the hitboxes. Heck, I think those hitboxes are even going past his elbows...

 

[Alacion]

Oh are we talking about disjointed up airs now?

Spoiler

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Oh are we talking about disjointed up airs now?

Spoiler

I think we have a winner!

 

[bubbaking]

What does a dotted circumference mean?

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Nah, he's not that cool.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhjqoPq8_vI&t=5m0s

 

[Alacion]

What does a dotted circumference mean?

Dotted means transcendent priority. The red means it's fire.

 

[bubbaking]

Nah, he's not that cool.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhjqoPq8_vI&t=5m0s

But we already established that we're talking about damaging hitboxes only.

Yeah, it probably would have been more correct for me to say that DDD's uair is the most disjointed uair that has a damaging hitbox.

 

[Ishiey]

This game would be so much better if landing with an airdodge had the same effect as landing from SpecialFall.

Why aren't we still talking about how this is the best idea ever?

 

[DMG]

Oh god, GG vs IC's and MK

Wario bottom tier

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Mr. Eric is not that good.....at all. If I can beat him, then he's a scrub because I suck. He should not be cited as a notable person that Will beat, not when comparing Will's wins to Ryo's wins.

I realize you weren't asking for advice, but you need to land with bair more than you land with dair.

 

[Player-1]

let's talk about how diddy's fair is quite possibly the best move in the game

 

[Juushichi]

Mister Eric (KY - ROB) and Mr. Eric (NY? - Marth) are different people.

Fair is pree good, but not the best move in the game.

 

[infiniteV115]

Best moves in the game would be things like Tornado, Shuttle Loop, MK uair, MK dtilt, Snake ftilt and utilt, Bite, Waft, Diddy's downB, Ike jab, DDD dthrow, ICs non-upwards-throws, ICs uair, ZSS dsmash, Whistle, Oli usmash and sideB

Some other stuff that I'm too lazy to think of

 

[Juushichi]

Luigi Jab is very good.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

ICs uair isn't one of the best moves in the game...

 

[da K.I.D.]

ikes fair > diddys fair.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I decided I am gonna do something that has never been done before. This is gonna be the most challenging thing I have ever done in my 6 years of competitive smash. My idol Mike G did, it. I'll do the same for this game. he is the reason despite all my embarrassing moments in this game with Peach, I'm still here. Trying again.

You guys have read my posts many times here already on all the things Peach can do. But how people don't tend to do it all the time cause it is hard or too much work. Takes too much mental energy. While this is true, it does not mean it can not happen. So I am gonna figure out a way to abuse everything she can do, and do it ALL THE TIME. Not do it some matches then stop. I mean ALL THE TIME. Start to finish.

If I usually open a character up of get in on them with fair, I'm gonna stop that. Even if it is the best option. I'm gonna find/create another way to do so. If I pressure someone and force an evasion, I'm not gonna punish said evasion with a kill move. I seriously now have to think and plan how I am gonna rack up damage and how I am gonna land the final blow while limiting the damage I take.

I played a wario last nite, some of the things that I would shut wario down for I did not, cause I would not play wario the way I usually would that would give me less struggle to win. Here is how I went on about it

- I calculated the % wario would die. from all my finishing blows
- I had to figure out new ways to approach and bait wario
- I had to figure out how to punish his evasion in new ways.
- I had to figured out how to rack up damage and get him to that kill %

and most important

- How to do all this while adapting to the player reacts to what I do.

Not everyone plays and reacts the same way. So I have to pick the best options based on my observation. The worst options in a match up can be the best, cause of how the enemy things and reacts.

I had many options to hit wario off the stage with fair, I did not do it to the player. Times out of habit I was jumping in on wario with fair and it would have hit. As I was going in, in my head I realized what I was doing and said to myself "STOP!" and I pull back half way so the attack would miss him on purpose. Some might think that was stupid or don't get the reason why I pulled back. Here is why it is not stupid

- He is not at death %, if I launch him now, he is not gonna die
- if I had launch him I am breaking the distance between me and him. Which I could have keep wario near me to get more damage, I broke the distance, and im wasting time. Also I have to go and get near him again when I just had him in my face.

Now when I did all this I got wario at his death %. But I get not get him there quickly. I did not rush him. I had to tell myself many times to take it easy. There is no rush AT ALL. As long as you get the job done and you win, there is no rush. No one says i have to rush a kill. So when i got wario to his death % on my first stock, I was at 34%. I made it hard for him to hit me while I zone him out. While still keeping a distance where I can start pressure and not give wario too much space. Then I went for pressure and mix ups with forces an evasion and then punished that with a finisher, and thats a dead wario.

if I had play this guy the same way I would usually play, the results might have been the same. But I don't wanna get into a habit of winning like this. Im using Peach at 50%. With Harder match ups and players, im making it harder for myself to win, and giving my opponent a free win. I'm giving them too many chances they are not working for. And that kinda annoys me.......

The hard thing to do was also paying attention to stage location. Stage location also plays a roel on how long a person lives, even if my moves are fresh and they are at death%. So I have to decide the best possible execution in the current situation. Launch them and have then in the air, go to the other end of stage, and process to edguard for a possible death? or give up the blow, keep enemy near me and keeping doing more damage to get good stage position to end the stock/game. No answer is best or worst. it depends on what you can make out of the current situation to get the kill.

Another pain was keeping count of my kill moves. if I used it once early I had to keep track of not using it for another 8 moves. And for myself to stop if i saw myself or thought of using them early again. keeping all this in mind at once while trying to get the job done and being self was hard. Sometimes in the matches I could not do it and went in rushing in cause I wanted to get hits and did not feel like waiting. This just made it easier for the enemy to live longer vs me and giving him more chances to come back and win. And my weaknesses are not well protected. I lost mental focus and keep not keep it up. Eventually I regain focus and went back to what I was doing.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The way Peach can be played and is suppose to be played is not happening. Her meta game is about 50 % in use. And I'm sure that's good news for people who play against her. You are not having much of a hard time as you should be. And it's been like this for years. Im gonna put an end to this though. So enjoy this some more now while you can. cause once I figure this out and it becomes a common thought pattern of mines fused with what I already know and how I play, all these comments and whines I been hearing since 08 are gonna be free from my ears once and for all.

I have to play every match up yet again. Use what I know then apply all this stuff. Which could make these match ups harder now. But it's only gonna become harder until I figure it how to work it in this new way of play. then the match up should be easier then usual. or less of a struggle then it usually is.
I doubt I would have cracked this down by the time apex hits. Cause what I am doing now is freaking work. Chances are I will do worst then I should have. Which is fine. Just like I am in no rush to rack damage and end a stock, I am in no rush for fame and glory. With this, it will come to me once I get it down across the whole roster. I might have a chance if i focus this in the characters people abuse so much in tournaments. But if i get hit with a wild card I did not test this on yet, Im screwed. Current meta game of Peach is not getting much done. And it seems people are lazy, or dont wanna work super hard all the time to change it for the better (and yes I am apart of those people, im at fault as well).

Time to change that. Enjoy this current metagame of peach now. Cause when its at 100%, you are not gonna like me later. Let it be known.

 

[infiniteV115]

ICs uair comes out quickly, has low cooldown, good disjoint and does 19% when fresh, and is a decent kill move. Wtf is wrong with you Grim.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

No aerial mobility, requires both climbers to do 19%, is only super effective in a handful of match-ups.

Though I guess it's as good as some of the others you listed.

@Dark.Pch
Good luck. Hope to see good things from you. Don't get too discouraged if you hit sangs along the way!

 

[Player-1]

ikes fair > diddys fair.

no .