Official BBR Tier List v7

[TheReflexWonder]

Link would be last. Not even a competition.

I disagree. His ability to momentum cancel vertically helps a ton, and he has projectiles and Z-Air to protect himself and open up options. His recovery really isn't that bad if you spend the whole game DI'ing in an attempt to only be sent vertically.

 

[Iota]

MK would still be first if the tier list was based on recovery =C. At least Wario would still be top tier probably :3

[Collapse=WoT about Falco MU]Curious if this is a popular thought because I think you're smoking something nice.

I've played JNIG, Croi, Krystadez, a **** ton of Reflex, and a lot more whose names you may or may not recognize. God opened the floodgates in my life and said let there be Wario. I've seen Kismet vs. Reflex on a near weekly basis, watched Reflex play Shugo and Ally among other Falcos.

Even from my viewpoint of not high level against top level players, that grab isn't hard to avoid. He can only start it on a small percent gap and it means he actually grabbed you. It starts at 52%, so his combos and low percent strings that lead to grabs aren't going to give it to him and I believe I'm safe at 80% (someone inform me of the actual percent, but that's the benchmark I use and I see success in not getting caught). You can play the platform game if he gets close and you're uncomfortable (even though your kit should be enough to not allow the grab). Normally he can't wait and fish because you're Falco and you can force an approach and cut off lanes even when you're behind. If you're far enough behind that you need to rush at him, you're already near hopeless.

The MU could be argued to even with that CG if it's not -1 (I personally think it's -1).

Falco's kit is still really, REALLY good. His neutral properties in conjunction with his jab, grab, and chain grab are kind of what makes him such an amazing character in general. Wario, like the rest of the cast, doesn't appreciate your spot dodge and rolls. Wario, even more than most characters, despises your jump height as it allows Falco to get to places that would normally allow Wario to safely get back to more neutral ground (especially on stages like BF where Falco is so good at getting to every height whenever he needs to). Lasers are good, like they always are, but it's not unreasonable to expect Wario to literally dodge them forever if he's ahead or until he charges a waft if he's behind and wants it. Jab, Grab, and Bair are your money makers. Kill him with USmash, a good FSmash read, or UTilt/Bair if an opportunity for those doesn't show up. Phantasm allows you to recover well. I mean, everyone talks about Falco being gimpable, which is true as he is, but it requires a hard read to do it. It also gives you a reset option if you run out of space or even a great tool in trapping landings (which is nice because Wario is rarely landing next to you without you being turned around and likely either at a practical frame disadvantage or in his mouth). Also, if the Wario is afraid to use his bike, your taunts are better.

Standard stuff.

I really think the MU is found in Wario's answers to Falco's tools. Falco's neutral properties are really ****ing good. Wario's air mobility means his neutral properties are also really ****ing good. It makes his air dodge and weight so much more valuable that it's borderline ridiculous. With SDI, he can make you hurt for trying some of your jab shenanigans (getting clapped in the ear leads to a really bad position), and god forbid you finish the jab combo. He's hard to kill early unless he decides he wants to get spiked (and honestly, he has to decide he wants to get spiked) or air dodge into an FSmash. Neither of these are something you can bank on. He's slippery enough that he's fairly difficult to kill late as throwing out an USmash is a frightening endeavor unless you have a grab release. It's not uncommon to see Wario live to 180%+. In fact, Wario at 180% and Falco at 130% is not a significant deficit because you both only need the right tap to push the other one past the blast zone. However, while Wario may live longer, Falco should get the lead and be able to hold it. Your rolls, spot dodge, shield grab, and phantasm help you reset instead of getting continually pressured. Lasers, CG, jab, and Bair should net you the first significant exchange lead and if you don't get it, Wario can be rather hellish to pin down into your damage racking set-ups. That's where the slight advantage comes from, imo.

Wario should be behind and give you the opportunity to kill him first. If you don't get it or take it when an opportunity presents itself, a Waft or a stray shoulder cannon can end your stock and make you have to reset it with a fresh Bair and try to do it again. Assuming you didn't die at 70% when Wario was at 90% or something similar, Wario's stock should not be long for this world if you're moves are refreshed. HOWEVER, it is far from unreasonable to say that Wario is very capable to take the first or even second or third stock early and put Falco behind. From behind, the MU gets much harder because Wario can play much more reactionary. Both characters have the tools to make up a deficit, but it's hard.

Wario's CG is very good at creating or overcoming such a deficit and that's why it is important in the MU, but it's kind of like saying Captain Falcon's infinite on ROB puts it in his favor to say that it causes Falco to lose (I am aware that is a much more extreme example, but such is the point of hyperbole).[/collapse]

I'm not going to argue the MU ratio. It's probably even. I just want to point out a few things that I might disagree with or w/e.

Paragraph 1: I recognize the names and I've watched almost all of the videos. It's not really a popular thought, 0 over +1 is more reasonable definitely, I just wanted to throw out a MU in the discussion I was having with bubba in top tier that could have a small possibility to be slight adv. Wario.

Paragraph 2: The CG starting percents are 53-76% Falco definitely has options for avoiding the grab, but from what I've seen it's most likely going to happen at least once per match though. I'm not particularly sure how effective Falco's platform camping is but it doesn't seem like a good idea since Wario wants you above him usually.

Paragraph 3: Basic Falco stuffz, like you said.

Paragraph 4: MU specific stuffz. Not much I really disagree with there .- .

Paragraph 5: I don't necessarily agree with the first sentence. Wario should be behind, but if he's giving you the opportunity to kill first then I feel that it's because he's less consistent than you in the MU, getting outplayed, etc. that can go both ways though and is why the MU is more even than +1 either way. I agree with the rest of that though.

Paragraph 6: I kinda disagree with it being that ridiculous. The CG does 44-68% not factoring in pummels+f-throw that usually happen after it's finished, charges waft, and puts Falco in a rather unfavorable position in the air if Wario f-throw/u-throws on the last grab. I won't ARGUE that it absolutely is a +1 in Wario's favor though, because it probably isn't.

 

[Juushichi]

How's this food for thought:

[6:59:21 PM] Toomai Glittershine: Okay, how's this for a number: Marth's sword is about 8.5 units long.

[Truncated Smash Lab Info]

[7:02:52 PM] CoF DeLux: how long is ICs pivot grab though
[7:02:56 PM] CoF DeLux: compared to their hurtbox
[7:02:58 PM] CoF DeLux: is the question
[7:06:39 PM] Toomai Glittershine: Popo's arm hurtbox reaches about 9 units back. The grab reaches to a max distance of 17.5.
[7:06:52 PM] CoF DeLux: so
[7:06:54 PM] CoF DeLux: at perfect spacing
[7:07:10 PM] CoF DeLux: pivot grab will trade with marth's fair LOL
[7:07:20 PM] CoF DeLux: since both are approx 8.5 units


Talk about high risk high reward. Grab or Get tippered :D

That explains how you pivot grabbed my mario from like, three ****ing Mario's away.

Hate. DeLux is too good.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Port priority is a must.^

beats +1 (60-40). Why is this discussion still going on? The funniest thing I saw was SSR's beating Blue Rogue's and SSR isn't even close to BR's skill level. That's enough to convince me.

 

[Luigi player]

Just because players lose doesn't mean the MU is exactly like the results.
I still think Warios (at least the ones I watch) don't play the MU correctly ( = avoid being grabbed at higher %, like staying below platforms and playing more campy/save).

 

[Iota]

That doesn't convince me at all since I've seen Blue Rogue lose to trash tier MUs like Zelda. It's more 55:45 than 60:40. 60:40-60:35s are reserved for Marth, MK, and D3.

I kind of agree with LP on that point. Warios have a tendency to play a lot of MUs that are kinda obscure incorrectly imo.

 

[bubbaking]

Dark peach is very good. Dont be sleepin on my boy.

Eh... He's decent, but he's not that good, at least from what I've seen. Played a few friendlies with him at the last Impact I attended (Impact III, I think). It was right after he'd lost one of his tourney matches, and he was totally enraged pretty pissed, so maybe that affected his playing a little bit.

Guys guys guys

Every character beats Wario. Wario only approaches with dair and pivot grab beats dair.

PLUS THEN HE'S GRABBED! So like, free grab release.

This has gotten silly.

Why are we still talking about this? Wario is a bad character who does not deserve to be an entire tier above a true work of art such as ZSS.

Putting yourself in a position where you can get grabbed as Wario is potentially terrible, but being above the opponent is potentially terrible as Peach.

I'm no Peach expert, and I actually know very little about Peach, but isn't her dair pretty good, especially when FC'd? I would have thought that alone would make Peach decent when above her opponent.

Link would be last. Not even a competition.

You sure it would be Link and not Ganon? Versatility would have to be included in a tier list based on recoveries and Link's recovery has a bit more versatility than Ganon's. His upB has a decent-ish hitbox and he always has his grapple. If he was lucky enough to be holding a bomb when he got sent offstage, then congrats, he now has two upB's. Ganon's only two forms of recovery are:

1. A suicide command grab that can serve to accomplish the very opposite of what Ganon was aiming for, a recovery.
2. A command grab with absolutely no hitstun that can actually punish Ganon for recovering.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Whatever, dude.

Heh heh-heh

Peach is much much worse at killing than Diddy and Falco.

Is is also not better at it then ROB, Yoshi, Kirby or Ike, Yet she is a better character then those 4. Power isnt everything. And you are going hella overboard with that statement. peach uses the same method as falco and diddy to get kills with lack of power. Alot of characters below Peach back more of a punch. Yet look at where they are.

So really, knock it of already. Community never cries about how those 2 lack power, never. They go to peach and that is the first thing on their mind, and forget about everything else. If it was about power, Ganon and bowser would take over this game. Power isnt everything. One aspect of a character does not MAKE/break the character.

Things like this is seriously why I question some thing from BBR members. I should not be hearing thing like this from alot of members.

 

[bubbaking]

That doesn't convince me at all since I've seen Blue Rogue lose to trash tier MUs like Zelda. It's more 55:45 than 60:40. 60:40-60:35s are reserved for Marth, MK, and D3.

Where'd that 5% go?

 

[Iota]

It went through the rabbit hole to wonderland.

65:35*

 

[Juushichi]

BR only loses to Ganondorf and that was once.

And Fonz.

 

[bubbaking]

Just curious. Even in an MK-centric metagame, what is the pro-Wario Top Tier reasoning? I understand the diminishing of common counters, but what about Wario actually makes him Top? A decrease in counters' frequencies is simply a reason to stay. What put him there in the first plae?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

He was put there out of basically good faith, theorycraft and of very solid results in 2009. He was 3rd for a while, its very rare for a character to ever drop all that far from their first or second tier list position, lol.

 

[Mekos]

You just liked seeing yourself as #1 for a bad character!

haha good one But nah I don't need a thread to tell me my power level.

The thread was live!

 

[da K.I.D.]

Heh heh-heh



Is is also not better at it then ROB, Yoshi, Kirby or Ike, Yet she is a better character then those 4.

if you are talking about peach, I completely disagree.

ROB, sonic, kirby and Ike are all better than peach.

as far as the kill moves comment is concerned. its not about how strong or weak a character is. its about how viable their kill moves are.

sonic, sheik, peach, and samus are all noted for their lack of kill power because aside from spindash to bair, f tilt to up smash on certain characters, and zair to charge shot on rare occasions, there no way to set up, punish with, or otherwise combo into the kill moves from these characters. this means in order to hit with their kill moves, these characters have to put their opponents in specific situations to hit with said kill moves. situations that the opponent can readily acknowledge and avoid.

diddy and falco dont have that problem because despite the lack of raw power, they can set up their kill moves, (Via bananas/lasers) combo into their kill moves, (via bananas/lasers/phantasm) punish with their kill moves (via quick aerials out of shield/bananas/jump canceled up smash) and just generally have far more options and ways to use said options (diddy has banana smashes, fair, and up tilt, while falco has quick smash attacks, bair, dair, and up air)

its not about raw power, its about how applicable said power moves are. Thats why ddds kill with up tilt instead of f smash. and based on that, peach is STILL very weak and hard to kill with.

 

[| Big D |]

He was put there out of basically good faith, theorycraft and of very solid results in 2009. He was 3rd for a while, its very rare for a character to ever drop all that far from their first or second tier list position, lol.

The guy was 3rd.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I'm no Peach expert, and I actually know very little about Peach, but isn't her dair pretty good, especially when FC'd? I would have thought that alone would make Peach decent when above her opponent.

Peach does not wanna be over anyone. She can be punished hard for it due to traits like her fall speed. But her Dair does give her the option to defend herself and strike a chance to land. Marth is a character that also does not like being over anyone. he has the second worst air dodge in the game while Peach is first. They are both in bad position. Though Peach has a better chance of landing thanks to this tool. Marth can't just throw out dairs. The move is leave him open really hard. Here is a break down on how this works.

Peach dair hits on frame 12. It has four hit boxes And each hit come comes out as follows:

12, 18, 24, 30

Each hit box is active for 2 frames. So inbetween attacks, Peach is open for 4 frames before the other hit boxes come out. if I throw out a dair before an opponets hits me, there are chances they will get hit before thier attack comes out. They are moving into an active hit box and as thier attack is starting up, they are gonna get hit out of said attack.

Ever seen Peach beat out Upairs just as Marth, ZSS, meta and many others? This is the reason why. Has nothing to do with so called priority that people think exist. if I space and falling dair and throw it out early, my opponent will be moving into an active hit box before their speedy moves come out. For then to hit me out of this if I dish it out early is for them to hit me within that 4 frame window I am open. This is why peach gets hit out of that move when it is active. if i throw out a dair as soon as these characters attack and I am close to them, the result of this air batte is resulted by speed of both attacks. And any Uair faster then 12 frames is beat Dair with no problem.

In Marth cause, his dair hits on frame 6. it is active for 4 frames. If he misses, he is open for 50 frames. Thats about a second. This is why you don't see marths using this move alot as a counter for air harrassment. Peach is only open for 9 frames if she misses.

So not a solid answer for Peach to use dair and escape air harassment from below. It's an average tool that can help her get throw the enemy. Can be a problem if people start to respect that move and wait. So Peach can't get to happy with it. it can be punished if baited and she throws the move out way too fear in panic.

 

[Zankoku]

Marth also can't really afford to land with his dair like Peach can >_>

His fast-fall speed helps deal with poor air-dodge stats a lot more effectively than Peach, though.

 

[infiniteV115]

I don't think I've ever seen a Peach dair beat out ZSS' uair. Something I've experienced myself is that if Peach is falling while she dairs, and ZSS is rising while she uairs, then it's harder to space it and they're probably going to trade

But no I've never seen it get beaten. It's always been either trade or ZSS' uair wins.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Is suddenly the next big thing?

Let's get together BBR and make borderline...

 

[Sinister Slush]

After what san use to be doing back then, along with what Ryo did at WHOBO 4. I'd say maybe borderline...

 

[Neon!]

After what san use to be doing back then, along with what Ryo did at WHOBO 4. I'd say maybe borderline...

By this logic DK would be borderline also *shudders*

 

[bubbaking]

Marth also can't really afford to land with his dair like Peach can >_>

His fast-fall speed helps deal with poor air-dodge stats a lot more effectively than Peach, though.

That's what Dark said... <__<

I don't think I've ever seen a Peach dair beat out ZSS' uair. Something I've experienced myself is that if Peach is falling while she dairs, and ZSS is rising while she uairs, then it's harder to space it and they're probably going to trade

But no I've never seen it get beaten. It's always been either trade or ZSS' uair wins.

Isn't that just 'cause ZSS's uair has way more priority than Peach's dair (by priority I mean hitbox size, placement, and disjoint)?

 

[infiniteV115]

Yeah I believe her uair is the most vertically disjointed aerial in the game
And I wouldn't be surprised if it had better horizontal/diagonal disjoint than Peach's dair either.

 

[C.J.]

More so than D3's dair/uair?

 

[Zankoku]

That's what Dark said... <__<

Unless DPch was referring to Marth's landing lag and not his cooldown on the dair itself, I don't believe that was exactly what he said, no.

 

[Dark.Pch]

if you are talking about peach, I completely disagree.

ROB, sonic, kirby and Ike are all better than peach.

as far as the kill moves comment is concerned. its not about how strong or weak a character is. its about how viable their kill moves are.

sonic, sheik, peach, and samus are all noted for their lack of kill power because aside from spindash to bair, f tilt to up smash on certain characters, and zair to charge shot on rare occasions, there no way to set up, punish with, or otherwise combo into the kill moves from these characters. this means in order to hit with their kill moves, these characters have to put their opponents in specific situations to hit with said kill moves. situations that the opponent can readily acknowledge and avoid.

diddy and falco dont have that problem because despite the lack of raw power, they can set up their kill moves, (Via bananas/lasers) combo into their kill moves, (via bananas/lasers/phantasm) punish with their kill moves (via quick aerials out of shield/bananas/jump canceled up smash) and just generally have far more options and ways to use said options (diddy has banana smashes, fair, and up tilt, while falco has quick smash attacks, bair, dair, and up air)

its not about raw power, its about how applicable said power moves are. Thats why ddds kill with up tilt instead of f smash. and based on that, peach is STILL very weak and hard to kill with.

I could break it down to you in bites as to why these characters are NOT better. And I would not even use results as a example. This is me breaking just about every aspect of this characters strengths, flaws and how its affect into pieces. Like If I was writing a report for an english class. This would take long so I am gonna save this for another time, or when I really have to dish it out.

Now the main thing, this killing nonsense. Now I honestly want you to sit down and think about what I am about to say veeeeeeeeeeeery carefully.

Peach lacks power in her moves. Though usually the moves are stale alot and people complain about the issue. Now Something can not get stale so often if it does not connect right? Right. So this would mean that peach can actually land finishing blows if they are usually stale. Now If I was to decided to just not use them so much. Once every 8 moves, this would mean when I land a finisher people will die sooner then others have been letting them live. People get clapped with fair and bair all day. To a point it is stale alot. This tells me Peach can land finishers. Though they don't get the job done as they suppose too. People that are suppose to die at 120-140 for example won't live as long as say 170+ cause I decided to use fair and bair over and over so early.

main reason of the killing issue is cause moves are stale. Stating I can land finishing blows. I just keep making them weak so they don't help much.

Again, think about this veeeeeeeeeeeeery carefully, then look back at what you just said. Then back to me.

I don't think I've ever seen a Peach dair beat out ZSS' uair. Something I've experienced myself is that if Peach is falling while she dairs, and ZSS is rising while she uairs, then it's harder to space it and they're probably going to trade


But no I've never seen it get beaten. It's always been either trade or ZSS' uair wins.

The reason it trades is cause of what I just explained. You have a 4 frame move going against my 12 frame move. Something like that can't trade if it happens at the same time.

Isn't that just 'cause ZSS's uair has way more priority than Peach's dair (by priority I mean hitbox size, placement, and disjoint)?

No. My dair hit box is not long enough to have ZSS uair and go through it to reach her hurt box. Same with ZSS on her uair to get Peach hurt box. How it's determind who wins this air war is explained on my other post.

 

[Sinister Slush]

By this logic DK would be borderline also *shudders*

Except Ike accomplished more compared to Will.

 

[infiniteV115]

I suppose I worded that poorly
Not that it has the most vertical disjoint of any aerial, but that when it's spaced properly it beats out all aerials.

It might have bigger disjoint than DDD's uair and dair though. Those things are definitely bigger, but they don't seem very disjointed. I'm not sure though.

 

[Neon!]

Except Ike accomplished more compared to Will.

That's debatable, I'd have to know more about Will and Ryo's results to really argue against that though.

 

[| Big D |]

DDD's dair is one of the only dairs with enough disjoint to completely beat out Zelda's upsmash from directly above.

Although it is probably the easiest to time/space to beat it.

 

[Sinister Slush]

That's debatable, I'd have to know more about Will and Ryo's results to really argue against that though.

Well I mean, not just Ryo. San too and among other ike mains.
I dunno about DKs outside of Will and beating richbrown back from WHOBO 3 with 185 ledgegrabs.
Literally, both characters are a big shrug to me, but I know a tad of results for Ike. (and that there's porbably more Ike mains compared to DK, since 7 of them beat Yoshi's *** in the crew battle back from APEX 2012)

Unless you don't know about Ryo's wins at WHOBO 4?

 

[Dark.Pch]

I suppose I worded that poorly
Not that it has the most vertical disjoint of any aerial, but that when it's spaced properly it beats out all aerials.

It might have bigger disjoint than DDD's uair and dair though. Those things are definitely bigger, but they don't seem very disjointed. I'm not sure though.

ZSS has an upair that is hard to get through and get her hurt box to clap her out it from below. So im my case. peach dair can get trough her Upair hitbox. But I can not reach your hurtbox. You on the other hand are able to go though my dair and reach my hurtbox because cause of the range. Hit boxes clashing don't determine outcomes of the situation or a trade. Its hitting your hurtbox.

ZSS uair just beat Peach dair cause:
- We attacked at the same time. Your upair is faster
- Hit boxes are both active at once but you can get through my hit box and reach my hurtbox.
- I throw my dair out as you are jumping in and staring up your uair. You managed to get lucky and hit me within that 4 frame window peach has to wait before the next hit box of her dair is active.

Peach Dair just beat ZSS uair cause:

- Peach dair ahead of time and hit out at the start up of the move as you move into an active hit box.
- You Uair a lil too early and did not reach my hurt box. The hit box of your uair just hit mines and the active frames of the move are not out as long as mine. Just left your hurtbox unprotected.

We just traded hits because:

We were at a distance where are hit boxes were active at the same time and we are both able to reach each others hurt boxes.

That should paint a better picture for you on how it works.

 

[bubbaking]

I believe DDD's uair is the most disjointed (aerial?) attack in the game, IIRC. Not so much his dair because he holds the hammer close to his body.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Yea. I believe it is impossible for any dair to actually reach DDD hurtbox from his uair. His Dair is almost the same or equal in range. I would have to check it out again just to be sure. Peach has an uptilt that beats just about every dair in the game. The only character I see beating her uptilt with dair is DDD. Im not sure if he can. But if a character was able to, it would have to be DDD.

 

[deepseadiva]

haha good one But nah I don't need a thread to tell me my power level.

The thread was live!

That thread should definitely come back. Smash is ALL gossip and hype - I can't believe it got put away. The censorship on this site...

ROB, sonic, kirby and Ike are all better than peach.

Wow, put down the joint.

Rob MAYBE.

Peach dair hits on frame 12. It has four hit boxes And each hit come comes out as follows:

12, 18, 24, 30

Peach is only open for 9 frames if she misses.

Peach dair for top ten best aerial.

Is suddenly the next big thing?

Let's get together BBR and make borderline...

Basically how yall have worked since the beginning of time.

 

[bubbaking]

DDD's dair is one of the only dairs with enough disjoint to completely beat out Zelda's upsmash from directly above.

Although it is probably the easiest to time/space to beat it.

I woudn't say it's easy to time a response to DDD's dair, at least not one that's supposed to beat it out. DDD's dair comes out pretty darn fast. It's faster then stall-then-falls and it's faster than delayed stomps (Ness, Falcon, DK, etc). Now, if you mean it's easy to space yourself so that you hit him after the dair, then yeah, you're kinda right, but only kinda. That move doesn't have much lag as long as you make sure not to land with it.

DDD's dair is fast enough that he can surprise someone with a DJ dair and it's lagless enough that he can throw it out unsparingly at will and not have to worry about a punish.

 

[| Big D |]

I meant it's easiest to react to Zelda's upsmash with. The other dairs that beat Zelda's upsmash aren't out for very long and have to be speaced really well.

Dedede's dair is amazing, I never thought otherwise.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I woudn't say it's easy to time a response to DDD's dair, at least not one that's supposed to beat it out. DDD's dair comes out pretty darn fast. It's faster then stall-then-falls and it's faster than delayed stomps (Ness, Falcon, DK, etc). Now, if you mean it's easy to space yourself so that you hit him after the dair, then yeah, you're kinda right, but only kinda. That move doesn't have much lag as long as you make sure not to land with it.

DDD's dair is fast enough that he can surprise someone with a DJ dair and it's lagless enough that he can throw it out unsparingly at will and not have to worry about a punish.

DDD Fair starts on frame nine. That's slower then Zelda. ganons and links jabs, which I believe are around 7 frames. To me average speed of a move is 5-6 frames. Good speed of a move is 3-4, anything below that is just broken.

DDD is open for 20 frames before he can pull out another dair. So on wiff, he can get punish or give the enemy enough time to break away from his range if need too. Its an easy punish if blocked He is in that dair animation for 47 frames total before he can do anything. This can leave him easy to hit his hurt box on the side of DDD where he is hella open.

(Jump/Grab OoS) -22, (Normal Shield Drop) -15

You really are not as safe as you think you are. What you stated here is more of a gimmick and messing with ones head. it'snot something that is legit and safe to rely on.

 

[Iota]

Zelda's first jab hitbox comes out on frame 10. Link's is frame 7 while Ganondorf's is frame 8. It doesn't matter much but at least his dair is faster than Zelda's jab