Official BBR Tier List v7

[Dark.Pch]

No and yes, in that order. Such horizontal aerial mobility, the disparity between Peach and Wario's jump height, and Wario's general ability to poke when an opponent is moving forward makes it really, really, really difficult for Peach. You are wrong--Running away is an enormous problem for Peach in this matchup.

You assume that Wario has to be in a specific mode of running away, but he's quite possibly the most dynamic character in the game as far as gameplay is concerned. His ability to change it up and throw people off is a large part of why he's a competitively viable character in the first place.

Either way, I'm not going to convince you, so, don't expect another response in relation to the matchup. It's not a big deal either way, as the matchup probably won't happen in tournament, because I'm too busy beating Peach players with PT for it to need to happen.

What you think I assume is backwards. And I have no problem pinning down a wario. People you play though do. Thats not a character problem. I dare you to run from me and watch how many times I close in on you. This is not 08-09 thinking someone is not gonna catch on to this typical play style and feel there is nothing I can do about it so let it go. If I can pin down run away falco, toonlinks, foxes, and even speedy characters as sonic, you no different, and these characters are harder to pin then wario. Try me.

And you want a medal for beating peach players that have no idea how to fight PT? Then again, I not say only Peach players. Your PT is a fraud and you know why if you really think about it.

Yeah, I'm not 100% sure on EXACTLY when the hitbox is in front of Marth, but it's why Marth is so bad vs AA's. The frame 4 hitbox, so earliest is frame 10 after jumpsquat, is above Marth and it takes time to move in front of him.


What's Peach's float speed vs her normal mobility?

I assume her float speed would be the same as her air speed with is 0.89. Peach is 24th on the air speed list and is one of the 9th slowest

Her run speed is 1.35. Peach is 31st on the running speed list and is one of the 6th slowest runners

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I believe her float speed is actually slower than her air speed.

 

[Dark.Pch]

^ yea, so looking at her air speed, you can use that info to determine just how slow her float is.

 

[C.J.]

Then I guess it would have to be the base mobility difference since her base mobility is third best while Marth's is 19th.

 

[SFA Smiley]

About the peach bair hitbox diagram (this) it may not look disjointed because it doesn't stretch far out from her dress, but this picture doesn't show where her hurtboxes are.
Maybe it's actually disjointed due to some awkward hurtbox positioning moreso than having a hitbox that stretches further out from the centre of her body than most of her moves?
Or maybe it's because there's some total repositioning going on (similar to how Snake's entire body is moved a bit upwards during his bair)

Either of these (or both I guess) would explain why it seems so disjointed

This most likely.

 

[DeLux]

Or maybe the idea that Peach's Bair is really disjointed is a misconception

 

[infiniteV115]

That too.






























































but i dun wna disrpct ma boi cj liek dat u no

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Yo

On the real.

C.J. is my home dawg.

 

[C.J.]

Lol, I already admitted that I was potentially wrong and was tricked because Peach's initial mobility is third best in the game throwing me off.

Besides, I LIKE being wrong =D

<3 V and Mink tho =)

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

So question for Peach players:

Have you experienced with weak glide tossing? Weak glide tossing is basically a short toss with a long glide length. This puts a turnip right in front of you as you glide. For most characters this is pretty difficult, but Peach's is incredibly easy. Tap forward->shield, let go of both and hit A very fast. It's much easier than it sounds and unlike Peach's normal glide toss, it offers a few benefits:

1. It is safe. If the turnip hits a shield you're in position to grab, even on powershield, and
2. It sets up for several kill moves. If you're close enough and the guy is fat enough, you can fsmash. If the character is smaller and more annoying (say like Meta Knight), it won't set up for fsmash as easily, but it sets up for ground float aerials that are stupid hard to avoid. If you're close enough to the guy, they'll fly a bit more and without DI need to tech in order to avoid bouncing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8pCdju9-Ao

This video is slightly more than embarrassing, but I made it on the fly just now. I'm way too slow in almost all of these examples, but they actually do combo from the turnip (except for the tech examples)... well I probably shouldn't have charged that second fsmash. I hope you can get the idea. Probably not going to cure Peach's problem but WGT is safe and can net kills.

 

[infiniteV115]

I have trouble believing that the target suffers THAT much hitstun, but that could be due to my lack of Peach experience.

It looks like MK can shield between the turnip hitting and the smash/fair

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

The fsmash is guaranteed, the aerials might not be, Idk.

However, I'm not really trying to provide anything guaranteed. Most characters don't have guaranteed kill moves, to be honest. Peach's problem isn't that she can't combo to kill moves, very few characters can do that. Her problem is that she has to make a hard read to kill someone and has very few ways of reducing their options.

Subbing out regular glide tosses for weak glide tosses at high percents is safe and puts opponents in bad positions even if shielded. This REDUCES the opponent's options and gives Peach opportunities. Please don't misunderstand the purpose of the post/video.

 

[Dark.Pch]

So question for Peach players:

Have you experienced with weak glide tossing? Weak glide tossing is basically a short toss with a long glide length. This puts a turnip right in front of you as you glide. For most characters this is pretty difficult, but Peach's is incredibly easy. Tap forward->shield, let go of both and hit A very fast. It's much easier than it sounds and unlike Peach's normal glide toss, it offers a few benefits:

1. It is safe. If the turnip hits a shield you're in position to grab, even on powershield, and
2. It sets up for several kill moves. If you're close enough and the guy is fat enough, you can fsmash. If the character is smaller and more annoying (say like Meta Knight), it won't set up for fsmash as easily, but it sets up for ground float aerials that are stupid hard to avoid. If you're close enough to the guy, they'll fly a bit more and without DI need to tech in order to avoid bouncing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8pCdju9-Ao

This video is slightly more than embarrassing, but I made it on the fly just now. I'm way too slow in almost all of these examples, but they actually do combo from the turnip (except for the tech examples)... well I probably shouldn't have charged that second fsmash. I hope you can get the idea. Probably not going to cure Peach's problem but WGT is safe and can net kills.

This is more of a way to start pressure then just to Turnip to w/e you want. Frame trap material. The distance you glide toss does have its uses such as this:

The advantages listed assume that the turnip hits the opponent's shield at the point shown in the image.

Shield Advantages
Smash Throw

Shield advantage:
Normal: -9
Winking: -6
Dot: -1
Stitch: +12

Shield advantage:
Normal: 0
Winking: +3
Dot: +8
Stitch: +21

Shield advantage:
Normal: +6
Winking: +9
Dot: +14
Stitch: +27

Shield advantage:
Normal: +9
Winking: +12
Dot: +17
Stitch: +30

Shield advantage:
Normal: +9
Winking: +12
Dot: +17
Stitch: +30



Normal Throw

Shield advantage:
Normal: -12
Winking: -7
Dot: -3
Stitch: +12

Shield advantage:
Normal: 0
Winking: +4
Dot: +8
Stitch: +23

Shield advantage:
Normal: +7
Winking: +11
Dot: +15
Stitch: +30

Shield advantage:
Normal: +7
Winking: +11
Dot: +15
Stitch: +30

So control the distance on glide tossing based on stage position on block can lead to shield advantage. In most case if a turnip connect to an opponent when I glide toss in, I usually just get a free grab. if you are able to move before the turnip hits the opponent, it is possible to connect with a Fsmash. though that is strict timing.

 

[C.J.]

That was impressive.

 

[bubbaking]

Wario does not have many top or high level players that enter tourneys and/or use him consistently. He has quite a few players that use him that are good but they don't enter tournies often or they don't even use him in tourney consistently outside of using him as an alternative for a MU they dislike. ZSS has more consistent top/high level players repping her atm I think with V115, Nick Riddle, Salem, and Quik off the top of my head. I'm not particularly sure the current reps of Lucario but it definitely hurts to have Trela quitting and Junebug not being able to go to tournies.

Well, I'd have to disagree with you about ZSS. ZSS usage has certainly picked up recently, but I don't think it's any greater than regular Wario usage. Isn't Salem known for going long periods of time without being active at all? As for Lucario, it definitely is true that he has nearly no representation right now. I'd even go so far as to say that John12346 is probably currently the best true Lucario (which might be kinda sad ), but he might also be the only good Lucario main right now.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Salem goes to like 2 tourneys a year, beats KT and Will again and quits for a while. NR hasn't left his state in a while and v115 isn't (to my knowledge, though i'm sure if he is he'll come correct me) travelling until Apex.

I have very high hopes for all of them and they're all awesome, but there's not a lot of national ZSS activity no.

 

[infiniteV115]

That's not true about Salem; it's not that he goes for long periods of time without being active at all. It's just that he doesn't travel very far (AFAIK). Every tournament I've seen him attend (Concentrate II, Apex 2012, Impact IV, Collision V, COT6, all of these are off the top of my head btw) were in NJ/NY AFAIK.

Who are the notable active Warios atm? I know there's Reflex and Sky, idk how active Iota is (or how notable he is) and I know Croi is active but he's definitely not as good as the 4 ZSSs Iota just mentioned (not dissing the dude at all, but it's true...at least imo and based off of what I've seen)
I know BPow and Bassem exist, I've only seen either of them attend 1 tournament (literally)
And then there's the Wario that Ally and Atomsk pull out from time to time.

eh..I guess it depends on your definition of 'top/high level players'

Edit: NR went to WHOBO and is going to WABA
I guess it's fair to say he doesn't travel much even though AFAIK Reflex travels less? (According to him he only attends MK banned tournies outside of Apex...also went to WHOBO and Retribution and is also going to WABA)
I've only seen Sky at SoCaloCals and Apex

etc etc Most of us don't really travel much lawl

 

[bubbaking]

So my claim that there is more Wario activity than ZSS activity is valid. Now, remember how Oli jumped up to #2 on the tier list because of success divided by # of Olimars? Shouldn't that same logic make Wario go below ZSS and Lucario?

 

[DMG]

No, because Wario's a better character than Lucario.

 

[infiniteV115]

Also because it was terrible logic (outside of terrible Logic LAWLAMIRITE) that put Oli at 2nd.

 

[bubbaking]

No, because Wario's a better character than Lucario.

But how do you know that when no even gets to see Lucario play?

 

[DMG]

Because I have for a long time. Lee Martin and Trela in my region lol

Along with playing vs them

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Wario not better than ZSS tho

 

[bubbaking]

That's not true about Salem; it's not that he goes for long periods of time without being active at all. It's just that he doesn't travel very far (AFAIK). Every tournament I've seen him attend (Concentrate II, Apex 2012, Impact IV, Collision V, COT6, all of these are off the top of my head btw) were in NJ/NY AFAIK.

Wow, seriously? I miss ONE Impact, and it's the one that Salem went to? Darn, I could have really used the ZSS experience...

Who are the notable active Warios atm? I know there's Reflex and Sky, idk how active Iota is (or how notable he is) and I know Croi is active but he's definitely not as good as the 4 ZSSs Iota just mentioned (not dissing the dude at all, but it's true...at least imo and based off of what I've seen)
I know BPow and Bassem exist, I've only seen either of them attend 1 tournament (literally)
And then there's the Wario that Ally and Atomsk pull out from time to time.

What about Malcolm and Jnig? Are they still active? Oh, and what about Seibrik?

 

[C.J.]

I saw Jnig on a stream last weekend.

Seibrik is definitely accurate, mostly uses Wario in doubles and at MK banned events

 

[DMG]

Wario not better than ZSS tho

It's debatable. I think ZSS players play her wrong in a lot of instances. She's also kinda... poopie at approaching.

 

[bubbaking]

But that doesn't matter too much because she can force approaches with stuff like her blaster camping. She's also really good at punishing mistakes in her opponent's spacing with attacks such as sideB and dsmash. She also has great shield pressure if she actually catches you in shield, again with blasters and dsmash. Isn't her DA also really safe on shields for some reason?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

DA is **** on shield unless you're right next to the guy when you use it.

Actually DMG is right, ZSS sucks at approaching and thrives on an early lead that she can abuse. Suit pieces help with that (Honestly can't remember the last time Salem didn't start a match with a huge lead) but her approach problem is one of the reasons Falco is widely regarded as a difficult match-up.

The primary reason is because of her grab being probably the worst in the game, but her mix-ups aren't within human reaction time so all she has to do is bait you once and she'll get in, and you'll take 50% damage and wonder what happened, 'cuz ZSS does incredibly high damage.

 

[bubbaking]

Well, Falco can also reflect crap...

 

[Mekos]

Yo bring back the top 5 thread!! Smash boards was live then. Give the people what they want!!
It fell to some troll. That was so lame wth.

I remember now. It was the tlinks. Why didn't they just ban them from the thread or something... -________-

 

[da K.I.D.]

Iota has only been to one tournament like 3 weeks ago...

 

[Sinister Slush]

Yo bring back the top 5 thread!! Smash boards was live then. Give the people what they want!!
It fell to some troll. That was so lame wth.

I remember now. It was the tlinks. Why didn't they just ban them from the thread or something... -________-

Cause it wasn't just the Toon link mains that got the thread banned. The entire thing was a mess from almost the start.

 

[bubbaking]

Yo bring back the top 5 thread!! Smash boards was live then. Give the people what they want!!
It fell to some troll. That was so lame wth.

I remember now. It was the tlinks. Why didn't they just ban them from the thread or something... -________-

You just liked seeing yourself as #1 for a bad character!

 

[Iota]

Who are the notable active Warios atm? I know there's Reflex and Sky, idk how active Iota is (or how notable he is) and I know Croi is active but he's definitely not as good as the 4 ZSSs Iota just mentioned (not dissing the dude at all, but it's true...at least imo and based off of what I've seen)
I know BPow and Bassem exist, I've only seen either of them attend 1 tournament (literally)
And then there's the Wario that Ally and Atomsk pull out from time to time.

ATM the active and semi-active that do well are Reflex, Sky, Jnig/Croi, Waymas, and Bpow. Malcolm, Bassem, and hunger haven't attended any sort of tourney in their general area in months afaik. Seibrik, Ally, Atomsk, and ANTi all have solid Warios but they don't use them often outside of siebrik. I wouldn't include myself as a notable Wario, I'm just too inconsistent as a player. I can beat or get most (all?)of the players in my region to last hit if I'm playing my A game but I'm rarely at this level of play.

Iota has only been to one tournament like 3 weeks ago...

I've been to at least 7 tournaments. My tournament a few weeks ago just happened to have my most notable wins+placing. I go to almost every MD/VA tourney with my average placing being 7th.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Oh ok. My bad.

I legit thought that was your first one. I had never ever heard of you before that. Excuse my ignorance

 

[Iota]

Meh, I don't take offense considering I'm practically a random to everyone outside of my region lol.

 

[Luco]

You just liked seeing yourself as #1 for a bad character!

Wouldn't anyone? :D

 

[Luigi player]

Marth's fair, ignoring AC and w/e, is something like -25 on shield.

Peach's bair, ignoring AC/float cancel/w/e, is something like -31 on shield.

Marth's fair, landing with it, is at best -4 on shield. Peach's bair is, at best, +0 on shield.

Also, it is almost impossible to straight up beat Peach's bair w/ Marth's fair. They're fairly close in amount of space covered/disjoint.

Diddys fair can easily trade with Peach's bair, but it can easily be outdisjointed by Marths.
It just seems like a wall with so much range. Peach actually puts her body nearer to you when she bairs which also helps in hitting her during or after her bair. Playing vs Peachs bair = just run in and hit/trade. Vs Marths fair you have to wait it out and be like perfect at punishing it.

I know right? Tell me about it. Like man...........

Then you or anyone in your case really should not be saying anything at all. Cause you don't know anything on this and come off sounding a lil foolish.

I don't care about that frame data. I just know that/how it works, because that is what I learned from playing the game. You can tell me 100000 times Wario can't get through or get's walled and how fast it is, but it won't change anything, because from my experience you can easily get through in some way or another.
I also use sense so I'm not just going from my expierence. Telling me something like that Peach can uair after a bair won't change anything for me. Then Wario moves back between the bair and uair and punishes her. You're telling me she's a complete invincable wall where nobody could get through (Wario is probably better at getting through than other characters).

Peach Can bair, cancel bair on frame 20, then jab behind her frame 31 This is good and quick considering spacing and punishing attacks that could happen out of shield. or air attack out of shield since there is a certain number of frames one must wait before they are airborne.

Okay, then Wario comes down with a dair. Also there's 11 frames where Wario can do something inbetween? If that's the case how can you even say Wario can't get in...

peach can do alot of things quickly out of her bair. I can bair to bair over and over quickly with lil delay. Your tech skills with her are just bad. I have crossed people up with her bair and got reverse grabs soon after.

I meant doing her bair in the air, no floatcancel or anything.

You clearly have no clue what you are talking about dude, you are going off by weak experience with peach players. Here is a thing about me, when I talk about match ups, I talk from high levels of play. Someone that actuallys know what they are doing, win or lose. Its always at top game play. Your experience was not. Not only then, you have exposed yourself many times on things you are wrong about.

And I'm talking about top level play.

Also I wasn't part in the Wario MU discussions, but I agree that it's not something you can blindly trust. I have many many many MUs myself that I disagree with on the MU chart, but that probably goes for everyone.


Oh well, I don't wanna discuss this anymore, since everyone is stuck in their opinion anyway and the only thing you are able to do here is show frame data that supports something even though it doesn't even have to mean that much.

I just wish I could show you by playing you, but Apex won't be long enough for everyone to please...

 

[Luco]

I just wish I could show you by playing you, but Apex won't be long enough for everyone to please...

At least you get to go to Apex...

Darn you Australia.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

^This man speaks the truth.
I'm gonna have to work my *** off to get to America for Smash any time soon...