Official BBR Tier List v7

[da K.I.D.]

Why is wario on the ground to f smash? Throwing out f smash as a counter to peachs aerials ignores the fact that wario spends 90% of the match in the air. He isnt going to magically be on the ground and not running when he needs to be for a situation like that.

Also, none of peachs aerials are laggy, every single one of them land laglessly on the exact frame the hitbox goes away

 

[Dark.Pch]

How should a laggy aerial like Peaches bair wall such a mobile character like Wario?
I mean, I'm not saying it isn't able to "block" a few of his "approaches", but Wario should easily be able to work around that (move away/airdodge then fair/bair or whatever).

Also Peach kills at like 170+. Very rarely it can happen that she gets kills at 150+, but that's like the earliest, besides gimps or usmash kills (which both happen just as rarely as her other early KOs).

(that's for weightclasses middle and up)

if you are asking how I am suppose to space moves, then you ether have no clue what it means to wall/zone/space or not good at it.

Bair is not laggy. Her bair is 6 frames. It has 2 hit boxes. the first with is the weak hitbox is active frame 6-8, the second hit box (weak) is on frame 9-19. And then auto cancel the move as soon as frame 20. This means I have an active hit for 13 frames. with no wholes inbetween like multi hitting attacks. And the move has good range that have a lil foward momentum. My bair outranages warios moveset in the air dude. if you try to go in hard while I space and zone you out, you are gonna be taking damage. i will become hard for you to get in. You really need to look things up before you say things like this. it's fine want to know things you don't know what. But to state claims about something you have lil to no info on does not make you come out so hot.

Peach fair is slow. But it has range. So if you move in on me and throw out an attack, and I pull back and throw out my move, your move will miss and I will hit you, hence "spacing" my fair also outranges wario moveset in the air.

Did you know?:

Peach nair is nearly undodgeable? Peach nair is active for 21 frames. In warios case his air dodge active for 25 frames. There is a five frame window Peach has to AT LEAST past to snipe you our of an air dodge. Which is seriously not hard. So when I use to fight warios I had a hard time hitting him cause I would rush in alot, leave my self open and poor spacing thanks to him air dodging all day then throwing out moves. So what did I do? I decided to figure out some way to stop that. Then I noticed the frames on Peachs nair. And the invinc frames on his air dodge. So when I see a wairo air dodge alot, I go in, delay a nair, and he gets hit out of it each time. if I create walls and traps with turnips, I can force the air dodge and nair him. bair him even.


You are going overboards with killing now. I don't let wario live up to 170+ The only time this ever happens is if the wario is placing to safe and the patient player that am, Im not gonna rush in on him. So I am hitting him with none kill moves while making it hard for him to touch me. Since Im not gonna be a moron and rush in with moves that can leave me open. When I see the right time, I'll go for a finisher. I am in no rush to kill you, even if I have to hit you with so many jabs, turnips and dair and i'm just racking up damage. Which is fine, you will die sooner or later. As long as I am doing better then you in the match.

I can be safe and take my time getting that kill % on people while they are having a hard time touching me. Who the hell said I have to rush? I rush chances are I am gonna get hit in cases that can be avoided and my kill moves are gonna be stale. Peach players you play I can say without a doubt in my mind went in at you hard. did not space or think about racking you to death % before landing blows and having you think she can't wall. you getting in easy against a character that outranges just about your whole moveset? Sonic is faster then you and he even has trouble landing hits on a solid Peach. What would make you think you are not gonna have trouble? Cause you a high tier and can dance around all day?

So basic rundown? No, wario can not easily get in. Even wario players know that when they fight a solid peach.

 

[-LzR-]

How should a laggy aerial like Peaches bair wall such a mobile character like Wario?

It only took one sentence to ruin your credibility. I guess Marths fair is laggy as well?

 

[_Kain_]

It only took one sentence to ruin your credibility. I guess Marths fair is laggy as well?

Her's lacks range and you can't wall out with it because it is laggy, a mobile character or one with better range stuffs that option easily

How can you talk about someone else's credibility while you yourself are posting silly stuff?

There's a reason why Peach's dont wall out with it, and the only use i've seen from it is autocancelled from a float right above the ground

 

[Iota]

Wario can not beat spaced Peach bair. It has enough range to outrange all of Wario's moves and has enough speed that it can't be punished with a shield grab, oos options, or with weaving out of the range then trying to hit Peach with fair. It requires Peach to make a mistake or for Wario to make a read to get past Peach's wall.

I'm not sure if you just meant in general Kain, but meh. I'd probably agree with you if you meant a character not Wario.

 

[| Big D |]

Bite though.

Congrats you now have a mix up game.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It's worth noting that it is exceptionally difficult for Peach to "catch" Wario, so if Wario gets a lead, Peach really has her work cut out for her.

 

[Iota]

I agree with Reflex. Peach doesn't have as hard as a time when approaching as we do though.

Big D, what exactly are we supposed to be biting vs Peach? Peach's aerials outrange our bite too.

 

[| Big D |]

If Peach is trying to wall you out with bair then bite would work.

It's not a good idea against her other aerials, hence why I said mix up game, as it will make the Peach player use it a lot less.

 

[Luigi player]

It only took one sentence to ruin your credibility. I guess Marths fair is laggy as well?

Marths fair is pretty different. It covers much more room and is more disjointed. And it definitely seems less laggy. Not sure about the frame data. I guess Peach can floatcancel her bairs, but then she doesn't cover anything above her. She can jump and use her bair, but then she has more cooldown.
When I picked Peach and tried to bair and do stuff after that there was a long time until she could do something again. I didn't think of her floatcancel, but even with that she won't be able to wall Wario.
Oh boy, people have no idea what they're talking about... characters/Brawl isn't that linear with only 1 option or something. That's what people seemingly want to tell me.
I shouldn't have said anything in the first place, but seeing so much false info just hurts.

 

[_Kain_]

I'm just saying, if you guys are looking at the move it's good, but if you look at it with how it can be used and it's practicality as a walling out move, it's just not there

It would require Peach to have her back turned from a float (since her jump is too floaty) and then by having her back turned she's taking away her options of nair, fair, and from using a turnip optimally, which are all better than bair. There's a reason why you don't see Peaches jumping around bairing

 

[Iota]

I don't think you can bite Peach out of bair though. I'd have to test it out to be 100% but I'm pretty sure bair has a little too much range for it to work. If biting her bair does work it'd definitely be an amazing option for making the guessing game of approaching her less skewed in her favor.


LP she can just floating uair us if we try to approach vertically, or float cancel FF u-tilt/u-smash. She has strong options for dealing with our approaches effectively, they're just harder to utilize properly and consistently than Marth or MK. Which is why I think the MU is more around -1/0 than -2 like Marth and MK.

Turnips aren't that great of a tool vs Wario since he's usually going to be in the air. Don't get me wrong, they can be useful but they're not AS good in the MU then they would be in her other MUs. Nair hits on both sides of Peach so she can still catch our air dodges with it while still having her back turned to us. Fair should be reserved as a kill move vs Wario, staling it unnecessarily as a walling/punish move seems foolish imo. Considering all this, I'd prefer to use bair over those three options in the Wario MU.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Pretty sure fsmash doesn't care about any grounded bairs/uairs.

It does care about hovered dairs though.

Her's lacks range and you can't wall out with it because it is laggy, a mobile character or one with better range stuffs that option easily

How can you talk about someone else's credibility while you yourself are posting silly stuff?

There's a reason why Peach's dont wall out with it, and the only use i've seen from it is autocancelled from a float right above the ground

You need to look again. Peach bair is the fastest air attack she has with range. its also as long as marths fair. So no, Bair does not lack range and it is not. You could have said she does not have more range then marth. Might wanna check yourself before you go off saying one is posting silly.

It's worth noting that it is exceptionally difficult for Peach to "catch" Wario, so if Wario gets a lead, Peach really has her work cut out for her.

You know, I once thought this as well. Catching his *** became a problem. Then one day, I decided to be the nerd/geek that I am and played around with my options. Also using basic common sense.

When one runs/camps, they are eventually gonna pin themselves to the corner. I move in But dont swing as much, thats freaking dumb. if he wants to keep playing tag with me, he has to get to the other side. I can make it hard for wario to keep runing with the turnip juggle and turnip cross. (look that up if you have no clue what I am getting at.) Now what dies does is slow wario down, he also has to evade alot in the air. or else I get free damage from turnips and then he is gonna be falling to the floor. I explained what I can do to his evasion. Wario is not as hard to catch and you think reflex. I honestly advise warios not to run so much when they are in the lead, they are giving me a chance to make that comeback instead of keeping me on lock.

Also you need to remember while all this is happening and you evade and be slowed down, you have to land sometime. All this was a problem cause I would get fustrated along with others and just be aggressive. I can't catch him or anyone in this case being aggressive. Wario is not getting away with that crap anymore now that I decided not to get mad for my mistakes/loses and how to correct them. Wario can't run from me. I'm sniping his fat ***. also him running makes it easier to hit him.

 

[C.J.]

Marths fair is pretty different. It covers much more room and is more disjointed. And it definitely seems less laggy. Not sure about the frame data. I guess

Marth's fair, ignoring AC and w/e, is something like -25 on shield.

Peach's bair, ignoring AC/float cancel/w/e, is something like -31 on shield.

Marth's fair, landing with it, is at best -4 on shield. Peach's bair is, at best, +0 on shield.

Also, it is almost impossible to straight up beat Peach's bair w/ Marth's fair. They're fairly close in amount of space covered/disjoint.

 

[| Big D |]

Wario's bite will work on Peach's bair, just tested it now. I spaced both the initial hitbox and the lingering hitbox multiple times. Bite2gud

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

When pepole talk about Peach here I :\

Talking about Peach like she's a mediocre character doesn't work because unlike other medicre characters, her problem isn't a lack of amazing options, she has them out the wazoo. This is why theorycraft makes Peach look good and why Europe put her in high tier a while back even though she clearly doesn't belong there. When you talk about her raw options and damage output, she looks great... for a while.

Her problem is a lack of a solid reward at high percents, not that she can't deal with most good characters until then.

When I look at Peach's MU spread I see one MK and a bunch of match-ups that are either decent, or bad because Peach can't land the kill for too long without reducing her options. Take away that weakness and she can definitely compete.

Peach beats Wario because, in a nutshell, (as I've said before) Peach would beat a lot of good characters if she could kill from a grab. Peach doesn't lack options to beat Wario or most other characters under like 100%.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Marths fair is pretty different. It covers much more room and is more disjointed. And it definitely seems less laggy. Not sure about the frame data. I guess Peach can floatcancel her bairs, but then she doesn't cover anything above her. She can jump and use her bair, but then she has more cooldown.
When I picked Peach and tried to bair and do stuff after that there was a long time until she could do something again. I didn't think of her floatcancel, but even with that she won't be able to wall Wario.
Oh boy, people have no idea what they're talking about... characters/Brawl isn't that linear with only 1 option or something. That's what people seemingly want to tell me.
I shouldn't have said anything in the first place, but seeing so much false info just hurts.

I know right? Tell me about it. Like man...........

Then you or anyone in your case really should not be saying anything at all. Cause you don't know anything on this and come off sounding a lil foolish.

Peach Can bair, cancel bair on frame 20, then jab behind her frame 31 This is good and quick considering spacing and punishing attacks that could happen out of shield. or air attack out of shield since there is a certain number of frames one must wait before they are airborne.

peach can do alot of things quickly out of her bair. I can bair to bair over and over quickly with lil delay. Your tech skills with her are just bad. I have crossed people up with her bair and got reverse grabs soon after.

You clearly have no clue what you are talking about dude, you are going off by weak experience with peach players. Here is a thing about me, when I talk about match ups, I talk from high levels of play. Someone that actuallys know what they are doing, win or lose. Its always at top game play. Your experience was not. Not only then, you have exposed yourself many times on things you are wrong about.

Im not saying all this to be a **** to you or anything. I am not that type or person. (im sure some will see it that way though) But your really need to not speak on this. your experience is weak, your hand on experience with peach is poor, you don't know your frame date and how it applies to many things going on here. You saying silly things that warios get abused for and know won't work. They know better and what they can do/not do.

It's stuff like this is why I can't trust results and match up charts. Cause I am sure you are not the only one who things like this. And you are in the BBR, who play a role in these things, yet look at what you been saying, based on weak experience like it is absolute.

I'm just saying, if you guys are looking at the move it's good, but if you look at it with how it can be used and it's practicality as a walling out move, it's just not there

It would require Peach to have her back turned from a float (since her jump is too floaty) and then by having her back turned she's taking away her options of nair, fair, and from using a turnip optimally, which are all better than bair. There's a reason why you don't see Peaches jumping around bairing

Peach does not lose options. The best option she has out of a bair is a jab reversal. And it comes out quick. When I bair ones shield, they thing they can grab me or attack out of shield. I just jab reversal and hit them out of anything they tried to do. its her BEST option up close. Unless you are Marth, Mario, boswer with them up-B, you are gonna get hit out of everything you do. You can't punish buttons.

Marth's fair, ignoring AC and w/e, is something like -25 on shield.

Peach's bair, ignoring AC/float cancel/w/e, is something like -31 on shield.

Marth's fair, landing with it, is at best -4 on shield. Peach's bair is, at best, +0 on shield.

Also, it is almost impossible to straight up beat Peach's bair w/ Marth's fair. They're fairly close in amount of space covered/disjoint.

Fair:
Optimal Shield Advantage (assumes hitting with F17 hitbox): 0, -2
Optimal Shield Drop Advantage: +7, +5

Bair:
Optimal Shield Advantage: -4 (hard hit then land)
Optimal Shield Drop Advantage: +3
Optimal Shield Advantage Autocanceled: 0 (weak hit bair -> ac landing)
Optimal Shield Drop Advantage Autocanceled: +7

You have a better chance of beating my move in a bair vs fair. peach bair is 6 frames. Your fair is 4. its a tight window. one of us ether has to swing first or space the move and let the other swing to punish a wiff. You Marth has a better shot of winning this air battle even though it is a close fight.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I wish people knew as much about their characters as me and DP know about ours lol.

Its nice when people can just throw out memorised numbers. so we dont have to debate things that are provable and can just move on to the next point.

basically, what this amounts to is
in the peach wario matchup, peach bair = DDD bair, as far as wario is concerned.

 

[DeLux]

Dang, I wish I knew that much about my character >_>

 

[da K.I.D.]

shut up man, you know you know more about this game than both of us put together, not to mention IC specific stuff you know/created.

FOH with that.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

I don't know **** about either of my characters...

except that momentum cancelling with any of puffs aerials is the same because they're all seperated by like, 2 frames max.

 

[C.J.]

K.I.D. is mean =(

And, Drk. P. I meant straight up as in range wise. Range/disjoint vs range/disjoint, it is almost impossible for Marth's fair to beat Peach's bair.

Additionally, Marth's fair being frame 4 is the most misrepresenting piece of frame data in the game =(
I WISH it was frame 4 the way everyone thinks it is. The hitbox on frame 4 is behind Marth's head. The hitbox for fair that will actually hit a grounded opponent isn't out until frame 5 or 6

 

[DeLux]

I am actually asking my Deity of Data about the disjoint numbers right now, so hold that thought CJ

 

[C.J.]

On range/disjoint between fair/bair?

That's just from experience vs Kyon's Peach in a million games.

If you meant about where Marth's hitbox is on his fair on what frame, PLEASE prove me wrong. That would make ideas I have so much easier.

 

[infiniteV115]

ZSS' uair is also frame 4, but the frame 4 hitbox is in front of (and slightly below) her.
Which is really ****ing funny

 

[Iota]

basically, what this amounts to is
in the peach wario matchup, peach bair = DDD bair, as far as wario is concerned.

imo Peach bair>D3 bair. If only because Peach has better air mobility along with her bair being unpunishable on block when spaced.

 

[DeLux]

On range/disjoint between fair/bair?

That's just from experience vs Kyon's Peach in a million games.

If you meant about where Marth's hitbox is on his fair on what frame, PLEASE prove me wrong. That would make ideas I have so much easier.

Yea, since they are aerials the only things that would really matter for "walling" would be the disjoint. Since if the hitbox is out, the one with the more disjoint will hit first. I'd guess the difference would be around 1.5 IGU's, but I want real numbers instead of guesses lol

 

[DMG]

I was almost positive that Peach Bair outspaced Bite.

 

[C.J.]

Yea, since they are aerials the only things that would really matter for "walling" would be the disjoint. Since if the hitbox is out, the one with the more disjoint will hit first. I'd guess the difference would be around 1.5 IGU's, but I want real numbers instead of guesses lol

Okidoki, I admit it, you got me.

IGU, I assume, stands for "in game unit." Give me reference point for how long an IGU is?

I recognize that at perfect spacing fair > bair. But with characters moving while in the air, it's not realistic, imo, to say that fair WILL reliably outspace bair.

 

[DeLux]

[6:51:51 PM] Toomai Glittershine: Assuming I'm not bad, Peach's bair doesn't have that much of a disjoint at all: http://www.ssbwiki.com/images/1/16/PeachSSBBBair(clean).png
[6:52:20 PM | Edited 6:52:46 PM] CoF DeLux: so the claim "Peach Bair has almost as much disjoint as marth's fair" would be wrong


20 IGU's make a stage builder block. And the reliability is probably going to be a function of which character has better base aerial mobility stats against the difference is disjoint.

 

[C.J.]

Interesting.

I wonder why it trades so much then. Interesting enough.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

When one runs/camps, they are eventually gonna pin themselves to the corner. Wario is not as hard to catch and you think reflex.

No and yes, in that order. Such horizontal aerial mobility, the disparity between Peach and Wario's jump height, and Wario's general ability to poke when an opponent is moving forward makes it really, really, really difficult for Peach. You are wrong--Running away is an enormous problem for Peach in this matchup.

You assume that Wario has to be in a specific mode of running away, but he's quite possibly the most dynamic character in the game as far as gameplay is concerned. His ability to change it up and throw people off is a large part of why he's a competitively viable character in the first place.

Either way, I'm not going to convince you, so, don't expect another response in relation to the matchup. It's not a big deal either way, as the matchup probably won't happen in tournament, because I'm too busy beating Peach players with PT for it to need to happen.

 

[C.J.]

Exhibition match @ Apex/WABA if Kyon is going?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Interesting.

I wonder why it trades so much then. Interesting enough.

Duration and she moves into you while she uses it.

People put too much weight on hitboxes, and not enough on application in these theorycrafting sessions. It's why Marth seems to be this unstoppable god and everyone +4s Jigglypuff because they have a move that out-ranges her bair.

 

[DeLux]

How's this food for thought:

[6:59:21 PM] Toomai Glittershine: Okay, how's this for a number: Marth's sword is about 8.5 units long.

[Truncated Smash Lab Info]

[7:02:52 PM] CoF DeLux: how long is ICs pivot grab though
[7:02:56 PM] CoF DeLux: compared to their hurtbox
[7:02:58 PM] CoF DeLux: is the question
[7:06:39 PM] Toomai Glittershine: Popo's arm hurtbox reaches about 9 units back. The grab reaches to a max distance of 17.5.
[7:06:52 PM] CoF DeLux: so
[7:06:54 PM] CoF DeLux: at perfect spacing
[7:07:10 PM] CoF DeLux: pivot grab will trade with marth's fair LOL
[7:07:20 PM] CoF DeLux: since both are approx 8.5 units


Talk about high risk high reward. Grab or Get tippered :D

 

[C.J.]

Duration and she moves into you while she uses it.

People put too much weight on hitboxes, and not enough on application in these theorycrafting sessions. It's why Marth seems to be this unstoppable god and everyone +4s Jigglypuff because they have a move that out-ranges her bair.

Nah, I get that. But it trades, her approaching, as I retreat it. And I know (well, I'm 90% sure) Marth has better aerial mobility than Peach, although Peach's base mobility is a bit higher. That may very well be it.

Oh, wait- float speed. I don't know that one.

How's this food for thought:

[6:59:21 PM] Toomai Glittershine: Okay, how's this for a number: Marth's sword is about 8.5 units long.

[Truncated Smash Lab Info]

[7:02:52 PM] CoF DeLux: how long is ICs pivot grab though
[7:02:56 PM] CoF DeLux: compared to their hurtbox
[7:02:58 PM] CoF DeLux: is the question
[7:06:39 PM] Toomai Glittershine: Popo's arm hurtbox reaches about 9 units back. The grab reaches to a max distance of 17.5.
[7:06:52 PM] CoF DeLux: so
[7:06:54 PM] CoF DeLux: at perfect spacing
[7:07:10 PM] CoF DeLux: pivot grab will trade with marth's fair LOL
[7:07:20 PM] CoF DeLux: since both are approx 8.5 units

That... kind of upsets me a little xDDD

 

[Dark.Pch]

Dang, I wish I knew that much about my character >_>

Im just a nerd/geek. yet I don't do any of this **** in tournaments cause I play like a coward. If only.....

I don't know **** about either of my characters...

except that momentum cancelling with any of puffs aerials is the same because they're all seperated by like, 2 frames max.

Smash goverment exposed as frauds.

K.I.D. is mean =(

And, Drk. P. I meant straight up as in range wise. Range/disjoint vs range/disjoint, it is almost impossible for Marth's fair to beat Peach's bair.

Additionally, Marth's fair being frame 4 is the most misrepresenting piece of frame data in the game =(
I WISH it was frame 4 the way everyone thinks it is. The hitbox on frame 4 is behind Marth's head. The hitbox for fair that will actually hit a grounded opponent isn't out until frame 5 or 6

Really now? I did not know that. I might a few more options to get in on a solid marth then I thought. But just to be sure on my options, its best to know for sure that the frames are.

I was almost positive that Peach Bair outspaced Bite.

Idk, its weird. I think it only works of I go for falling bairs on the upright/left side or wario. I know I can just run into that move with bite. I respect that move so I would do other things withing my spacing to punish a bite if I sense it. dair snuffs it out though. its a better option to beat bite.


@ Iota:

DDD bair is better in terms of walling. He can throw out more bairs then I can. My hit box is out for a while. He can harrash people better and link then for possible off stage kills.

Peach bair can be used to wall and started grounded pressure. (auto cancel bair, reverse jab for pressure/mixups) its also a good spacing tool since the hit box is out for a while. And you can auto cancel the move the next frame the hit box dissapears. Thus starting some ground pressure on block like the example I just gave.

To me DDD bair leads to being hard to hit, damage and kills. Peach bair leads to being hard to hit, opening people up and starting pressure which can lead to hella problems for the enemy.

Which one is better depends how which you see more fit in your eyes to get you the win.

 

[C.J.]

Really now? I did not know that. I might a few more options to get in on a solid marth then I thought. But just to be sure on my options, its best to know for sure that the frames are.

Yeah, I'm not 100% sure on EXACTLY when the hitbox is in front of Marth, but it's why Marth is so bad vs AA's. The frame 4 hitbox, so earliest is frame 10 after jumpsquat, is above Marth and it takes time to move in front of him.


What's Peach's float speed vs her normal mobility?

 

[Seagull Joe]

Either way, I'm not going to convince you, so, don't expect another response in relation to the matchup. It's not a big deal either way, as the matchup probably won't happen in tournament, because I'm too busy beating Peach players with PT for it to need to happen.

The callout LOL.^

 

[infiniteV115]

About the peach bair hitbox diagram (this) it may not look disjointed because it doesn't stretch far out from her dress, but this picture doesn't show where her hurtboxes are.
Maybe it's actually disjointed due to some awkward hurtbox positioning moreso than having a hitbox that stretches further out from the centre of her body than most of her moves?
Or maybe it's because there's some total repositioning going on (similar to how Snake's entire body is moved a bit upwards during his bair)

Either of these (or both I guess) would explain why it seems so disjointed