Official BBR Tier List v7

[#HBC | Ryker]

Out of curiosity, what top level Wario's have you played and how did it go for you?

 

[infiniteV115]

I guess it's true that my opinion on Peach is at least partially affected by 'word on the street', but your argument still holds no weight.
It sounds like you're basically saying "Peach is good, she just lacks the results she deserves because nobody's using her properly and all the Peach players are less skilled than the top players". And I can't say that's definitely false, you might be right. But it needs to be proven, and the same could be said for any character that isn't considered 'good'.

And nobody's really gonna change their mind unless you prove it to them, because results are generally the best indicator of a character's viability, and as of now Peach's results definitely aren't those of a 'good' character.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Out of curiosity, what top level Wario's have you played and how did it go for you?

Malcom and he beat me once in tournament.

I can not be used as an example for alot of things dealing with tournament. For those that know me, I have anxiety and terrible tournament nerves. I can't play when something is on the line. I kid you not, if i am in your bracket, thats pretty much a free win. It could be due to my years of depression that this happened. But lots know about this in the community Like Esam, tyrant, and a few others cause they have actually talked to me and try to help me out in ways cause they wanna see unleash what I know and can really do.

But cause of this mental problem is why I don't like to use myself as a tournament example. It won't sound legit right? Sure I did good at apex 2012. But I am not consistant at all. I know my stuff but I have a hard time applying them and just play basic, exposing easy to punish weaknesses. Before apex it was the same thing, doing horrible in tournaments.

I'm just being real even if it makes me look bad. Until I can control this problem, I don't see myself doing anything big and going by what I say. Im a bad example for tournament use. You would have to use other peach players for something like this.

 

[infiniteV115]

When I said 'prove it', I didn't necessarily mean to get the results yourself. If you can somehow cause Peach players to perform better (maybe mentoring them or something) then people might take you seriously. Otherwise, fat chance.

I mean none of this really matters. Even if you're 100% correct and Peach is actually a good character, it won't matter at all if all the Peach players are unskilled and don't use her properly. As of now, realistically speaking, she's not a tournament threat. Whether it's because she's not used to her fullest potential, or because she's a bad character even on paper is irrelevant.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Of course solo Peach wont be winning anything big? Why?

- People don't know how to corner pressure well.
- When they have an chance to corner pressure they give the enemy too much space or run for a turnip.
- They are not equally skilled in general as top players
- They don't attention to the characters weakness and how what they are doing is exposing it.
- Some auto pilot alot and depend on luck hoping stuff will work and if they opponent has no clue how to deal with it.

Peach takes work and you can NOT be lazy. You simply can not.

This is what I seen, done my self and heard for years. So damm right she aint gonna be winning anything. But thats not a characters problem. Thats the problem of the player behind the character, Like meta knight has all these tools and is just insane. But people stop placing top 8. meats are getting bopped. Does that mean meta is not the best in the game? I bet you meta would not drop on the list if this was to start happening. Cause really, its the players fault for slacking with meta.

Think is alot of people always go by words on the street and with what they see instead of thinking for themselves. Going to do thier whole. 80+% of people who say she sucks don't even break her down and explain her good and bad traits. How she works and suppose to be played. Can't speak on something you don't know about. This happens with alot of characters when people open thier mouths. Thats no good.

Im using Luigi player right now as an example to see just what he knows. He says he knows how Peach works. So he should be able to explain to me how Peach is suppose to beat wario. If he can't that means his drink is spiked. And proves my point I made a while ago.

I just want to cosign this post.

I've never considered it before, but now that DarkPch has pointed it out... It's very true :/ and comparing it to MK seems pretty accurate.

 

[Luigi player]

Peach definitely does not lose to Wario when considering her ability to wall him with Fair/Bair, especially on stages like FD and (possibly) YI

Why would you ever take FD into account for anything Wario related? (except maybe in the MK MU but then MK bans it lol)

Peach can't wall Wario with Fair/Bair.



____

And Peach kinda sucks because she can't kill.

She's pretty good until it comes to KOing her opponent...

 

[| Big D |]

Obviously lost game 1 as MK and then CP'd to FD.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

What Peach players need to do is find a way to safely avoid spacing and pressuring with fair at high percents. It can kill at a reasonable percent (like 120%?) but it is always stale.

Whenever I'm watching Peach and I see her punish with fair at 95% I'm like "she's going to regret that later."

Unfortunately that means limiting her own punish options which is ugly, too. Peach is pretty slow and fair is an excellent "gap closer" of sorts when she wants to punish something further away from her.

To me, if Peach is going to be better, her players need to start being closer to their opponents when they make a mistake, which sounds bizarre, but imagine if Peach players (for whatever reason and in whatever universe) could avoid using fair for most of the game. How many more matches would Peach win? My guess is, it would be a pretty significant change.

 

[deepseadiva]

Peach sucks cuz shes a weak girl in a pink dress. DUHHHHH

And Peach kinda sucks because she can't kill.

She's pretty good until it comes to KOing her opponent...

That's the thing.

That's true of her against all of the cast except ONE character. And then her kill move is grab. ****ing grab.

Even at absolute worst.

 

[z00ted]

Peach beats Wario badly.
I almost JV 3 stocked Yukhoe at Apex and he co-mains Peach/places well in Japan.

Two stocked his Peach in the ditto round one.

Haven't had the chance to play Reflex's, but I've beaten every other Wario I've played.
Lost to Infinity's Wario in one game which won him a set in loser's finals but I beat him twice in grand finals and tons of other money matches. His Metaknight beats me though so it doesn't matter.

I've also beaten Jnig, Bassem, whatever Warios are out there that I have faced in money matches or bracket. I honestly don't remember them all.

Peach sucks with MK legal because it's an impossible matchup (at least for me).
She's pretty threatening with him banned.

I don't even understand Luigi Player is talking about.
Peach vs Wario is a super rare matchup that I barely ever see played out at high level.

Definitely not even.. probably a +2 matchup or +1 if we're playing poorly.
She shouldn't lose. Like Meno said we actually have a kill move and Luigi Player you are wrong. Peach's bair outspaces all of Wario's moves.

 

[Iota]

Kinda want to argue that you're just better and know the match up more solidly than all those Warios you listed Illmatic but eh.

IMO the match up leans more to -1/0 than it does to -1/-2. Peach has the tools to wall out Wario indefinitely but it's just not possible to keep up that wall outside of perfect play. Losing the lead as Wario does hurts a lot though, especially if the timer is running out, Peach is one of those characters that can rack up a stupid amount of damage on us if we're forced to play a rushed aggro game.

I could write more on this match up but meh, I'm too lazy.

 

[SFA Smiley]

Peach is good, she just has one PARTICULARLY common and bad matchup. On the other hand she does well versus ICs which is just as significant in the current metagame.

Just because she's an awesome POCKET character doesn't make her bad, who solo mains characters nowadays anyway? You're seriously gonna call her bad because she has bad matchups? Having a peach in the pocket is notable weapon in anyone's arsenal honestly. Yeah she has other bad matchups above her but she just needs help just like everyone who doesn't main MK.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

I'm so bored i keep coming back to this bad thread.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

What's wrong with you people to call characters like Ike or Peach good? Those are like the definition of mediocre.

 

[Seagull Joe]

If it ain't it ain't good .

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I refuse to believe that Wario vs. Peach is any worse than +1 Peach. I'm actually of the mind that the matchup is pretty even. Playing against Excel_Zero solidified my belief in that.

 

[Dark.Pch]

When I said 'prove it', I didn't necessarily mean to get the results yourself. If you can somehow cause Peach players to perform better (maybe mentoring them or something) then people might take you seriously. Otherwise, fat chance.

I mean none of this really matters. Even if you're 100% correct and Peach is actually a good character, it won't matter at all if all the Peach players are unskilled and don't use her properly. As of now, realistically speaking, she's not a tournament threat. Whether it's because she's not used to her fullest potential, or because she's a bad character even on paper is irrelevant.

Oh hell yea. I agree with you. See to believe This is why people have the image that she is bad. Cause they go only by results. I can do that. Lets say the best peach in the world does not uses all of her tools or techs. This dude plays her lazy And always burning kill moves when he can save them. Would you not think he is limiting himself? Is he really abuse peach and all that she can do to a full extent? If he did all that he would have less problems in tournaments. Would he win a big one? I can't say. Cause there has never been a Peach that actually abused all she can do to the fulliest. The world has yet to see a Peach that has the mind of top players in the globe along with one that works his *** off abuseing all she can do.

This is why I don't solo go on results. Results just show me what people are doing with the character. It does not show me too much how good the character trully is. cause it goes by image and hype. Remember the Pit Hype for one of the tier list? Look at where he is now. Things are always jumping on and off. And thats cause of people behind these characters. And I refuse to go by something that is always based on viusals and sometimes hype. When people don't do their homework on said character. watch this below:

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Why would you ever take FD into account for anything Wario related? (except maybe in the MK MU but then MK bans it lol)

Peach can't wall Wario with Fair/Bair.


____

And Peach kinda sucks because she can't kill.

She's pretty good until it comes to KOing her opponent...

Ooooooooooooooo. Peach sucks cause she can't kill. let me see then. Me knowing my character, I know Peach does not end lives early. Thats a flaw. So how can I deal with this. Well I know for a fact that Peach is hella good at racking up damage. And pressuring. So I am gonna use that to rack up damage to get the opponent at w/e % needed for me to land the finishing blow. Oh yes my friend. peach can indeed do that. Just cause peach PLAYERS choose not too and let you off easy cause of it does not mean its a character problem that you live for days when you really should not be. And to do all this, it takes patients. I can rack up damage and not stale my moves just fine. But people just don't wanna take there time. They wanna go in and just hit you already. Get the job done and move on. Thats being lazy. You have to work hard with peach, if you don't, thats your fault, not a character.

Chances are you and alot of people in the community have never fought a Peach that would:

- Limit the use of kill moves until its time
- Corner pressure you WELL forcing you to roll/side step and punish you for it with mix ups and frame traps
- Will play it safe and not rush to kill you no matter how long it takes to get you to your death %

Again, peach can do all this. You never played one that does so often and plans just how they would go on about it in said match ups. And for that people choose to play the character when really the player behind the controller is letting you off easy and being lazy. Just hope for **** to work so it can be over with. Stuff like this is what people fail to realize over and over again in the community. And wether you want to believe it or not, this affect results. Reason why I can't so solo on results to let me know just how good a character really is.

Also, peach can't wall wario? Thats a lie. My fair and Bair out range your whole move set in the air. I space correctly, wario is having a hard time getting in. You are being walled/zoned out. Turnips used well make it even harder for wario to land a clean hit on me.

Can't think like that man. I knew I would get a response like this and why you think she is bad and loses to wario. See what I mean?

But check this out. Diddy and falco are not heavy hitters as well. But they are good characters and can get the job done. Why is that? Cause their good qualities as a whole get the job done. Even if it takes a while sometimes, they use thier ability to reduce damage while dishing their own. And eventually, ending the stock. But Nah, I dont hear people going on about how diddy and falco cant kill well 1000000 times. Just Peach though. Hmmm......

What Peach players need to do is find a way to safely avoid spacing and pressuring with fair at high percents. It can kill at a reasonable percent (like 120%?) but it is always stale. Whenever I'm watching Peach and I see her punish with fair at 95% I'm like "she's going to regret that later."

She does:
- spaced grouned nairs
- Short hop/mid float dairs.
- Jab cancel mix ups

She can also use turnips and start a pressure follow up from it. and no I dont mean just basically toss the thing then go in.

Peach can use her kill options for spacing (really if they block it free pressure.) But what most don't do is limit the use. For example. If I fair you once and it hits, I am not gonna fair you again till another 8 moves have hit you. Same with bair. And I explained how peach can rack up damage without the use of these moves. But a quick run down:

- nair
- dtilt (yes I am serious, this is a good spacing tool if you use the slide and you can punish landing and misspaced air attacks on landing
- Dair
- Grab
- Turnips

These are the tools I have to uses and figure out in match ups to get the enemy to that death % and end them. Which means playing strategic. Think of it as playing chess. thats what Peach is. a game of chess.

So against with moves being stale and all that jazz, she can avoid that. People people dont making things harder on themselves. You really gonna blame a character for that? Think about that for a sec.....

Unfortunately that means limiting her own punish options which is ugly, too. Peach is pretty slow and fair is an excellent "gap closer" of sorts when she wants to punish something further away from her.

Not true. peach does not have to limit her options at all to punish. Let me paint you a picture. When I pressure someone WELL on block I expect an evasion tactic. Wether rolling or side stepping. Now based on how I see they would try to evade I make educated guess of how to pressure, when to end my pressure strings and punish their evasions. Now if they are respecting me and I see them on block, I'll end pressure early and grab (all this falls in the line of adapting and being observant BTW)

Now going on about punishing and evasion tactic:

Rolling foward: chase roll and dash attack/shory hop dair/F-B ( I dont do this alot cause I can send enemy flying too fair and give up pressure that can lead to more damage before I send them flying) Ground fairs work as well if you are fast enough. Even if They Block or side step it, its a frame trap. You get free pressure from your jab follow up and go for a jab mixup.

Rolling back: Jump back to short hop dair. Float back to Bair, run behind and grab. Reversal F-B. Jump back to a Zdrop and follow up with a footstool dair combo. or turnip footstool lock from this.

Side step: Jab cancel to snipe out of it and go for jab mixup/pressure. Short hop dair in place. Ground float nair in place. (not one character in this game can air dodge or spot dodge Peach nair) if you react fast enough, grab. Zdrop and follow up from there.

Now look at all this. These are ways to get damage. And also best thing of all, I dont have to burn my kill options. I know when I do solid pressure, I am for a fact gonna force an evasion. Really when the shield gets small in fear of shield poking. I have control of the match right now. Now based of what I see, its up to me to make the best judgements and educated guesses to bait once of these three evasions and punish how I see fit. Then when the time comes, finish them off.

** -options to evade are limited when in a corner. Can't roll back.

One thing people also need to realize that stage position affects your deaths. If my opponent is suppose to die at 130 and I have a fresh fair and I hit him to the other side of the stage, chances are he is not gonna die. Since the closest death zone is behind me.

To me, if Peach is going to be better, her players need to start being closer to their opponents when they make a mistake, which sounds bizarre, but imagine if Peach players (for whatever reason and in whatever universe) could avoid using fair for most of the game. How many more matches would Peach win? My guess is, it would be a pretty significant change.

I agree, and you just proves my point what what I been saying. Not a character problem. A player problem.

 

[deepseadiva]

I refuse to believe that Wario vs. Peach is any worse than +1 Peach. I'm actually of the mind that the matchup is pretty even. Playing against Excel_Zero solidified my belief in that.

People like to throw +/-2 around, but this game honestly isn't that polarizing.

Peach has a strong bubble to work inside, while Wario can make up damage almost equally as well. It might come down to Peach's Icies-like Death Grab on him, but even then, Wario is one of the best characters equipped against such a threat.

It evens out.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I just want to throw this out there to Dark Peach.

being able to work around your weaknesses does not all of a sudden mean that your character no longer have that weakness. Its still a weakness and no matter what work arounds you have, youll still never be able to up tilt/up smash and kill every character at 100.

That being said. what is important is not the means by which you go about covering your flaws, because every character in the game has work arounds for their flaws. What matters is the size of effect of the flaw, compared to the size and effect of the work around.

DDD doesnt have very many kill options but they worked around that by memorising percents and effective set ups for up tilt. Up tilt is a great move that is pretty much only used to kill and has big range. in that case his killing issues are properly mitigated due to the up tilt being so useful even though its really his only sub-150 kill move.


based on the WoTs that you write on how to work around peachs killing problems, I surmise that the work around for her is harder and more complicated than 'get better at up tilt'. So no matter how much work you put in, its still going to be a big problem

 

[Dark.Pch]

I just want to throw this out there to Dark Peach.

being able to work around your weaknesses does not all of a sudden mean that your character no longer have that weakness. Its still a weakness and no matter what work arounds you have, youll still never be able to up tilt/up smash and kill every character at 100.

That being said. what is important is not the means by which you go about covering your flaws, because every character in the game has work arounds for their flaws. What matters is the size of effect of the flaw, compared to the size and effect of the work around.

DDD doesnt have very many kill options but they worked around that by memorising percents and effective set ups for up tilt. Up tilt is a great move that is pretty much only used to kill and has big range. in that case his killing issues are properly mitigated due to the up tilt being so useful even though its really his only sub-150 kill move.


based on the WoTs that you write on how to work around peachs killing problems, I surmise that the work around for her is harder and more complicated than 'get better at up tilt'. So no matter how much work you put in, its still going to be a big problem

seems you misunderstood me then.

I never said that working around my weakness makes it seem I dont have them. I just make those weakness harder to punish. The only way I win bad match ups on point is if I do my best to not get abuse for my flaws while trying to abuse the enemies. I have to expose something to makes the best of a bas situation/match up.

I know I am not gonna kill someone until 120 so why would I burn my kill options so when I hit at one 120, they still alive? I have to figure out a way/method to get to 120 with limit to no use of finishers. And she has some strengths she can use to help with this problem.

You get it now? The weakness of my character will never leave. My job is to make it hard for you to punish them. Even if you do get the punishes, Im gonna make you work for them. Im not gonna sit here and just get you expose them with lil to no effort. Same with corner pressure. Corner pressure is never auto lock. You can get out and reduce the damage with evasion tactics. My Job is to make it HARD for you to break free and get damage in or efforts to get away and counter. You play fighting games so you know about corner pressure, and all that jazz and how it works.


And yes she is hard to do all this stuff with. Which is why people get lazy, tired or don't abuse all she can do fully/all the time. Again, not a character problem. it's the players problem for choosing not to do the hard work they applied for.

The Big problem is "You have to do all this hella work to win, are you gonna do it?"

 

[Life]

As a Sonic (we kill even worse than Peach does), I am honestly okay with working someone up to like 160 using all my options instead of getting the kill at like 130 but awkwardly avoiding the two or so moves that are worth killing with.

In other words, I'd rather compensate for low kill power by doing more damage rather than compensate by reserving what little kill power I already have. And if nothing else, a failed kill is still a free shot at edgeguard damage against many characters.

Is this ill-advised?

 

[ぱみゅ]

inb4 Marth

Ninja'd lol
it was directed to DrkPch

 

[Seagull Joe]

I feel like 120% is an early kill percent. What characters die that early regularly? Only characters I know of with sure fire kill moves that can guarantee KO's under 120% is like , , and .

can't usually kill till like 140-150% on most characters that aren't heavy like /, but he racks up damage easily because his moves do an obscene amount of damage for whatever reason (12% for Bair, Dthrow does 12%, etc...).

How can kill any better? I'm honestly curious. She can do a great deal of damage because she has good strings, but how does she kill around 120% on say ?

 

[ToferTheHuman]

Just came to say everything Illmatic says is written in law.

 

[BSP]

kills at 60% on most people

 

[Delta-cod]

And then we remembered his traction.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

I feel like 120% is an early kill percent. What characters die that early regularly? Only characters I know of with sure fire kill moves that can guarantee KO's under 120% is like , , and .

can't usually kill till like 140-150% on most characters that aren't heavy like /, but he racks up damage easily because his moves do an obscene amount of damage for whatever reason (12% for Bair, Dthrow does 12%, etc...).

How can kill any better? I'm honestly curious. She can do a great deal of damage because she has good strings, but how does she kill around 120% on say ?

Peach would need an upsmash read to KO Diddy @ 120, but that can be hard to get, or an early turnip edgeguard which can be easily preventable if the Diddy recovers well.

Peach has lots of tools, but she just takes so much more work than the top tiers. I would know after maining her for two years. She's a momentum based character, and Marth/Diddy are better @ it and can kill faster/easier.

I think da K.I.D. is right about whatever he said about work/reward. No doubt that Peach is capable, but the skill, knowledge, prowess, and technical ability needed is a lot, and let's say you put the time into ICs or Diddy. First off they are better characters naturally. Second they both have infinites/better setups, better matchups vs top tier characters. Third off, there are more examples of "how to play" with the characters at a top level so one aiming to reach success with any of those characters will have an easier time.

 

[da K.I.D.]

As a Sonic (we kill even worse than Peach does), I am honestly okay with working someone up to like 160 using all my options instead of getting the kill at like 130 but awkwardly avoiding the two or so moves that are worth killing with.

In other words, I'd rather compensate for low kill power by doing more damage rather than compensate by reserving what little kill power I already have. And if nothing else, a failed kill is still a free shot at edgeguard damage against many characters.

Is this ill-advised?

First off this isnt melee, unless you are playing as a character who is notorious for having offstage prowess, against a character that is known for being weak offstage, a lot of the time you dont really get all that much damage or stocks from simply edgeguarding. due to up b snapping being so much better now.

as far as the conundrum you speak of, its pretty much a pick your poison scenario, and one option isnt really better than the other. It depends on the character in question. and to an extent the character they are fighting as well.
For peach, not using fair until kill percent is difficult, but doable.
For sonic, not using bair until 130-140 just flat out isnt viable, especially against peach specifically, because 50% of that matchup is spacing bairs on her since its the only effective move we have on her at neutral.
As opposed to sonic vs MK for example, where saving your bair is much more solid of an option because we can rrely on our ground game much more.

Sidenote, thats an underlying cause of why Sonic vs Lucario is Sonics worse matchup in the game.
Like peach, sonic is forced to bair in more situations then normal, but at the same time f smash is basically useless against him as a whole outside of baiting a spotdodge (not likely, roll is better) or outspacing an aerial (also unlikely) so it leaves sonic with even worse kill options than he has against the rest of the cast.

 

[DMG]

Who said Wario was more afraid of Diddy/Falco than Marth or Peach in tourney? Because that's wrong lol (I might be more afraid of Falco than Peach, but that's bout it)

Marth is a bad MU for Wario. Plain and simple. I think Peach also wins, but I see her as a less capable Marth vs Wario. The only thing they have similar is grab release -> Kill, and elsewhere she just walls worse overall. Result wise in tournament, tends to show that Peach usually pulls ahead.

I tend to go Marth actually vs Peach players. Much easier and feels more natural for me.

 

[Dark.Pch]

How can kill any better? I'm honestly curious. She can do a great deal of damage because she has good strings, but how does she kill around 120% on say ?

I am currently developing a list I made back then on the kill % a character would die with Peach kill moves from center and corner stage. Diddy I have not got too yet. Though leon has taught me something back at apex on diddy recovery. If diddy recovers low and up-B to the stage, I can jump/float down a lil while facing the stage and Hit the side of the move with dair. it will cancel the up-B and diddy will fall to his death. its that animation where the barrels go flying and he is in that animation like he just got foot stool or something. Peach can make it hard for diddy to return on stage that they would have to recover low, givve me this shot to snipe him with dair. I remembered this like 2 weeks ago and each time I get diddy in this spot, I have gotten better and ending his stock easy.

Here is what i have so far on the % characters die on while my kill moves are at 100% power:




Fair:
Corner of the stage with NO DI: 72%
Corner of the Stage with DI: 115%
Center stage with NO DI: 110%
Center stage with DI: 125

Bair:
Center stage with No DI: 130%
Center stage with DI: 145%
Corner of stage with no DI: 90 %
Corner of stage with DI: 140%

Upsmash:
Sweetspot upsmash grounded: 70%
Upsmash from below: 90

Upair:
Under the enemy (while they do a full jump): 120% * dies early the higher you hit him.

Nair:
Center stage with no DI: 130%
Center stage with DI: 145%
Corner or stage with no DI: 100%
Corner of stage with DI: 145%

Uptilt:
From under: 130%
The side: 135%


Fair:
Coner of FD with No DI: 90%
Coner of stage with DI: 165%
Center stage with no DI: 140%
Center stage with DI: 170%

Bair:
Center of stage with No DI: 150%
Center stage with DI: 180%
Corner of stage with No DI: 120%
Corner of stage with DI: 180%

Nair:
Center stage with no DI: 155%
Center stage with DI: 185%
Corner of stage with no DI: 120%
Corner of stage with DI: 180

Upsmash:
Sweetspot grounded: 110%
Sweetspot under the enemy: 110%

Uptilt:
Under the enemy: 180%
The sides: 185%

Uair:
Under the enemy grounded: 165%

Oppoents DI has to be ON POINT. If they DI late or the wrong way, they won't live this long as stated here. This is all assuming the opponent DI's on point if they wanna live this long. By the end of the weekend I should have alteast all the high tiers done. Also the smaller the stage, death zones, the sooner one dies. This is going based on an average stage like FD.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Holy ****. Snake never dies.

 

[Dark.Pch]

How can kill any better? I'm honestly curious. She can do a great deal of damage because she has good strings, but how does she kill around 120% on say ?

I am currently developing a list I made back then on the kill % a character would die with Peach kill moves from center and corner stage. Diddy I have not got too yet. Though leon has taught me something back at apex on diddy recovery. If diddy recovers low and up-B to the stage, I can jump/float down a lil while facing the stage and Hit the side of the move with dair. it will cancel the up-B and diddy will fall to his death. its that animation where the barrels go flying and he is in that animation like he just got foot stool or something. Peach can make it hard for diddy to return on stage that they would have to recover low, givve me this shot to snipe him with dair. I remembered this like 2 weeks ago and each time I get diddy in this spot, I have gotten better and ending his stock easy.

Here is what i have so far on the % characters die on while my kill moves are at 100% power:




Fair:
Corner of the stage with NO DI: 72%
Corner of the Stage with DI: 115%
Center stage with NO DI: 110%
Center stage with DI: 125

Bair:
Center stage with No DI: 130%
Center stage with DI: 145%
Corner of stage with no DI: 90 %
Corner of stage with DI: 140%

Upsmash:
Sweetspot upsmash grounded: 70%
Upsmash from below: 90

Upair:
Under the enemy (while they do a full jump): 120% * dies early the higher you hit him.

Nair:
Center stage with no DI: 130%
Center stage with DI: 145%
Corner or stage with no DI: 100%
Corner of stage with DI: 145%

Uptilt:
From under: 130%
The side: 135%


Fair:
Coner of FD with No DI: 90%
Coner of stage with DI: 165%
Center stage with no DI: 140%
Center stage with DI: 170%

Bair:
Center of stage with No DI: 150%
Center stage with DI: 180%
Corner of stage with No DI: 120%
Corner of stage with DI: 180%

Nair:
Center stage with no DI: 155%
Center stage with DI: 185%
Corner of stage with no DI: 120%
Corner of stage with DI: 180

Upsmash:
Sweetspot grounded: 110%
Sweetspot under the enemy: 110%

Uptilt:
Under the enemy: 180%
The sides: 185%

Uair:
Under the enemy grounded: 165%

Oppoents DI has to be ON POINT. If they DI late or the wrong way, they won't live this long as stated here. This is all assuming the opponent DI's on point if they wanna live this long. By the end of the weekend I should have alteast all the high tiers done. Also the smaller the stage, death zones, the sooner one dies. This is going based on an average stage like FD.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is a rundown I made on how Peach gets her kills in general:

[COLLAPSE="How Peach kills"]Though it may be a pain to kill with Peach at times, she does have a few kill options.

**= Can kill well with and mostly used for a finisher
* Can Kill but not as great as a kill move with 2 starts

- Fair **
- Bair **
- Nair
- Uair*
- Dair (% has to be quite high. Best to catch them in the air with it to make it a lil easier to kill with)
- Utilt **
- Ftilt *
- Dtilt (% has to be quite high)
- Fsmash **
- F-B (High damage or gimps)
-Up-B (% has to be pretty high. But this type of task can be easier if you do it high in the air or on a platform)
- Usmash**
- Turnips(Yes I am serious....turnips)**
- Toad (Yes......toad, but the % of the enemy has to be pretty darn high and it depends on character and stage.)

Now remember that this all depends on:
- How many times you used the attack
- Stage
- character you are playing
- the % or the enemy
- What part of the stage you are on when you unleashed the attack.

Save your moves that you need for killing. Use lots of jabs, get damage off of grabbing. When you grab them don't always launch them so fast. Kick them a few good times then toss them. N-air cant kill so well so use that alot. Dair helps since its not a Kill move. Space dtilts. And turnips. Once you get them to a good % Now you can fely on your kills moves like Fsmash and Up smash. Your fair and bairs, even upairs. uptilt as well. Try to save your most important moves to kill. Cause when you get them to that good %, all of your kill moves will be at full power. And it will be less of a struggle to kill.

Also Her upthrow can be a good tool for Killing.

"What, an Upthrow? the hell, How, that throw sucks and people hardly use it."

Oh? Well let me explain. At 50% and over, you really can't combo into anything. if you was to Fthrow them and Back throw them, then what. They are out of your range. and have to repeat the process of approaching them again. When you up throw them, They are over you, you can use turnips to at least hit them, or make it harder for them to touch the floor. And set up to land an attack on them. This is the more better ways to hit someone after a throw. This is center stage though. Near the edge you can just toss them out. but with some characters, Like DDD, DK, you are not gonna kill them off of a throw. So the hell with that right? Toss them up and get extra hits of of turnips, and even if that dont hit, they have to worry about evading them and then you hitting them while trying to land saftley to the floor. They will still Be in your attack range for turnips and even finishers more than any other throw at 50%+

Also she is good at racking up damage in w ways. Her Attacks and turnips. If you are gonna spam anything. it should not be your fair. it should be:

-Nair
-Dair
-Dtilt
-Jab
-Dsmash
-Turnips
-Grabs
-Up-B, used right and I am dead serious. 12% of damage I believe and good knock back at the final hit so you can't get punished for it that easy.
-Bair (sometimes.)
Uptilt (sometimes)
Uair (sometimes)

Now look at this list here. What is missing from here? Thats right, her kill options:
Fair
Fsmash
Upsmash.

The moves that have (somestimes) in them are moves that can kill as well but sometines are used to rack up damage, like within comboes. Now when I say spamm I don't mean be a dunce with the moves. uses them wall and with a brain to get some hits off. Then you still got your kill moves to kill earlier than expected. You can't just play Peach to play her. if your character can't just boldly kill, you can;t just go swinging attacks and playing so typical. This is why Peach does not get anywhere and people don't really see what she is about. Thus she is bias on her self and against characters. As well as people saying the typical stuff about her for over a year now.

"how can Peach rack up damage quick and early?"

Besides the chain grab we have:

Basic combos

-Dthrow>uptilt
-Dair>Nair
-Dair>Uair
-Dair>Fair
-Dair>Bair
-Jab>Dtilt
-Jab>grab
-Jab>Nair
-Jab>Nair
-Turnip>fair
-Turnip>Nair

Advance combos ( you would need good control of Peach and her floating as well)-

*= Depends on where your enemy is/goes after the first or second hit of the combo

-*Dair>Dair>Fair
-Dair>Dair
-Dair>Dair>Dair
-Dair>Dair>Dair>Uair
-*Dair>Dair>Dair>Uair>Up-B
-*Dair>Dair>falling Dair>Usmash/Utilt/Up-B
-*Dthrow>Ftilt>Uptilt/Usmash/Up-B
-*Dthrow>Ftilt>Jab>grab>Dthrow>Utilt/Uair/Up-B
-Bair>grab
-Fair>Jab>grab> (look at the list of what you can do after grabs)
-*Falling Dair>Jab>(look at the list of what you can do after jabs/grabs)
-*Falling Dair> Usmash/Utilt/Up-B/Nair/Bair

Now look at the list of moves I said to use alot that have (sometimes) in them. Then look at the combo list. Makes since to why it has (sometimes) next to them right you might already be using the move to get damage. So the won' be fresh for kill. other times they will.

Peach is like Chess, you just CAN'T go in there and say "ok, I wanna get this pawn with my rook" When there is a pawn right by it that can take you out. Now in Brawl terms.

You can just go swinging all your kill moves and all. You can get all the hits you wan't. Then when you get to that kill %, you are in trouble, you can't kill them at % they should be dead. And that sucks for you, and you already not a solid killer. oh man. then your enemy is gonna take you out easy. So you have to think how you gonna keep them kill moves fresh, and get your damage by new means. Peach and chess have something in common so you know.[/SPOILER][/COLLAPSE]

edit, **** sorry for the double post, PC is acting up.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Basically Marth mains defense of no good tourny results since forever.

"lolz he haz lots of potensial just gotta outspace fair u perefectly leeet sephiroth!!"

Don't act as if you are suffering some mental deficiency since it is an insult to those who actually do.

The only nonsense I have heard against Marth is "HE DOESN'T PLACE", and yet no one can actually pinpoint any other reason as to why he is "bad".

Marth doesn't have huge advantages, he isn't like Diddy or DDD or IC's where he has some broken aspect that can be abused, or large momentum shifting abilities.

 

[da K.I.D.]

DP, As a person who also plays a character with bad kill power, and as a person who came up with KO % lists very similar to what you are doing now, I would suggest that you dont bother learning non DI kill percents. It serves no purpose in real matches where EVERY one DIs even if they dont do it properly. Its better to know when a move will always kill. showing %s without DI only serve to make characters appear better than they actually are.

 

[Naridax]

...make characters appear better than they actually are.

But isn't that the goal?

 

[da K.I.D.]

no. the goal is to make characters appear as good as they actually are, no better, no worse.

any other goal is shallow and short sighted.

 

[Dark.Pch]

DP, As a person who also plays a character with bad kill power, and as a person who came up with KO % lists very similar to what you are doing now, I would suggest that you dont bother learning non DI kill percents. It serves no purpose in real matches where EVERY one DIs even if they dont do it properly. Its better to know when a move will always kill. showing %s without DI only serve to make characters appear better than they actually are.

I know that. I just put that there just to put it there. I really had not much reason to. It's just me wanting to break things down into so many parts. Geez im one hell of a nerd/geek......

But what is most important of course is kills on DI.

 

[DMG]

KID: It's still helpful to know kill % without DI because it lets you get a better grasp on how much DI/momentum cancelling actually help. Look at Snake for example. Showing the two options, DI vs no DI, you see a huge difference.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

And why is that helpful for determining how good a character is?

 

[DMG]

I wasn't talking in relation to how good a character is. I just meant it's useful to know, instead of useful to use as an argument. Knowing kill % without DI involved is still useful to know. If DP was saying Peach is good for killing MK at 70% with Fair, he'd be silly. But he's not.