Official BBR Tier List v7

[~ Gheb ~]

Three top level players at once is a lot of rep for most characters. Olimar in his prime had four, Ice Climbers never had more than two at once and Diddy / Snake / Falco never had more than three at once. Marth has no business complaining about a lack of rep.

Marth is actually harder to use than Ice Climbers, Olimar, Diddy Kong and obviously Lucario combined. Physically, mentally, technically and also human hands aren't designed to backwards reverse crab claw to be perfectly efficient with Marth's high tech super spacing.

He's also less efficient and can't cover as many options. He just isn't as good.

 

[Steam]

Marth is actually harder to use than Ice Climbers, Olimar, Diddy Kong and obviously Lucario combined. Physically, mentally, technically and also human hands aren't designed to backwards reverse crab claw to be perfectly efficient with Marth's high tech super spacing.

Swords are just easy at low level but a few hundred thousand times harder at top level unless you have five jumps, tornado and transcended priority (i.e. "I can make less mistakes" qualities)

so that's the new excuse? lol.

also clawing isn't that hard. I jump with y using my right index finger... right thumb rarely leaves the C-stick.

alternatively you could jump with L. I do that for quick UP OOS with MK/Bowser/etc because I hate tap jump.

It's also probably harder to use characters that... I dunno, don't have marth's spacing tools and share a lot of his weaknesses.

 

[C.J.]

Three top level players at once is a lot of rep for most characters. Olimar in his prime had four, Ice Climbers never had more than two at once and Diddy / Snake / Falco never had more than three at once. Marth has no business complaining about a lack of rep.

IC had Kakera (granted, for about a week coinciding with the next three), Esam, 9B, and Vinnie at the same time.


/staying out of the argument overall because I'm sick of it

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Kakera has not successfully used ICs after like 2010 more than once or twice in tourney. ESAM plays ICs in about two or three match-ups. It takes more than that to prove yourself as a top level player of a character.

 

[DeLux]

Esam is pretty top level with the character >_>

 

[~ Gheb ~]

That statement needs to be proven.

 

[GOofyGV]

ESAM is top level with the combination of Pika and IC's and to be a top level with a combo both characters have to be top

 

[C.J.]

That's actually not true.

Say you play Marth and are a top level Marth. You HATE the DDD MU and decide to only go MK vs DDD because that MU is terrible.

You're a top player, you routinely use MK, but that doesn't mean you're a top MK or even play MK at a top level. It means you use him to make a hard MU, free.

That's Gheb's assertion- that Esam only uses IC for specific MUs and as a result it's unable to tell if he truly is a top level IC.

 

[infiniteV115]

ESAM has beaten Dabuz, Anti and Vinnie with ICs. With Dabuz' Oli really being the only MU out of those that could be considered 'free'.

 

[C.J.]

And M2K

And Kakera

 

[infiniteV115]

I don't recall ESAM's ICs ever beating M2K o.o
Not in an entire set, anyway

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Well, I'm not denying that ESAM *could* be a top level ICs but I still think it remains to be proven. The previous comments show that he can play vs MK, Diddy Kong, Olimar and the IC ditto on the highest level. That's really good. But does he beat top level Snake players, top level Marth players, top level [insert character]? That's also part of being a top level player in my book.

 

[Orion*]

He's also less efficient and can't cover as many options. He just isn't as good.

Hes not as good as MK, but like nobody has ever argued that seriously
but you should mention that despite not covering as many options as well, his reward for reading or covering options is better.

Well, I'm not denying that ESAM *could* be a top level ICs but I still think it remains to be proven. The previous comments show that he can play vs MK, Diddy Kong, Olimar and the IC ditto on the highest level. That's really good. But does he beat top level Snake players, top level Marth players, top level [insert character]? That's also part of being a top level player in my book.

Like theres still relevant MUs we haven't seen vinnie play. Even if Esam was weak vs snake, across the board you know his *** it top, stop arguing garbage semantics plz

 

[Seagull Joe]

Esam goes to counter 's bad matchups or when his is completely outclassed. Anti has always had a weakness as far as I know (Least with . He nets wins against 's as sometimes). Dabuz uses (A matchup wins and ikachu2 loses). Esam is good at the ditto and that's a much easier matchup then using vs Vinnie since beats +1/+2.

So from what I gather...Esam goes versus 's bad matchups, people not efficient vs , or when his gets outclassed.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Vinnie lost to me at Apex, but I think it would be pretty dumb to say that he's not a top-level Ice Climbers player just for that.

Esam goes ICs to counter Pikachu's bad matchups or when his Pikachu is completely outclassed.

MCPeePants, son!

 

[Seagull Joe]

Vinnie is a definitely a top player. Didn't he get like 2nd at SRT while M2k got like 5th?

 

[bubbaking]

I just felt like giving some random 5 cents. Why the heck would Marth be considered not Top Tier if Wario still is?

And Vinnie has been placing really well at a lot of tourneys lately. Like, top 3 well. He's been ****** the competition at all our local LI tourneys.

 

[infiniteV115]

Again, it depends on where you want to draw the line for top tier. If it's top 9 characters in the game (like it is now) then Marth is definitely top tier (imo)

If it's top 5 then probably not, but still possible.

Top 7? Yeah probably (again imo)

But I think it's more or less universally agreed on that Marth > Wario

 

[bubbaking]

Ok, well that leads to my next question: Why is Wario still Top Tier?

WWTT

 

[infiniteV115]

Because the BBR generally felt that he was closer in viability to the other characters in top tier than to the characters in high tier.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

In an MK-centric metagame, most of his bad matchups become much less common. Also, he's a very dynamic character, so if something doesn't work, he can change it up, which can help a lot.

That said, most people don't see Wario as being in that group of "top" characters.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Hes not as good as MK, but like nobody has ever argued that seriously
but you should mention that despite not covering as many options as well, his reward for reading or covering options is better.



Like theres still relevant MUs we haven't seen vinnie play. Even if Esam was weak vs snake, across the board you know his *** it top, stop arguing garbage semantics plz

Nobody asked you, you dumb sack of ****

 

[clowsui]

how did people miss the fact that shaya was semi-trolling? holy **** lmao

 

[Youngster Joey]

how often does a new list come out? i feel like this one should be changed a little and i also like to see new characters higher up. or even lower on the list. like i feel like olimar is too easily gimped to be 2. maybe 3 but i feel like 2 belongs to someone else. idk im not an olimar main

 

[infiniteV115]

iirc they're going with every 9 months (at the earliest) from now on.
And this one came out April 28th
So we probably won't see another til after Apex 2013

 

[Ishiey]

It'll probably be a bit longer than that :/

 

[GOofyGV]

I think it will be around march or April before there will be a new one.

 

[bubbaking]

In an MK-centric metagame, most of his bad matchups become much less common. Also, he's a very dynamic character, so if something doesn't work, he can change it up, which can help a lot.

That said, most people don't see Wario as being in that group of "top" characters.

So, uh, you guys are discussing the possibility of having two tier lists, right? Ones with MK legal and ones with MK banned, 'cause there are a LOT of tourneys now with him banned. I'd say about half, more or less, of all the tourneys on LI have MK banned.

With that said, in an MK-centric metagame, most of his bad MUs may be less common, but in an MK-absent one, they become commonplace. DDD is a very good example. Once MK's gone, we're allowed to flourish (and ****) against a lot of the other chars. We may not be good or well-designed, but we're a threat against a good portion of Top Tier.

 

[GOofyGV]

Dedede isn't going to be more viable without mk lol
IC's,Olimar,Diddy,Falco are going to be more commen and they **** dedede as well so yeah doesn't change a lot.

 

[infiniteV115]

March and April are both after Apex 2013...

I never said immediately after XD

 

[GOofyGV]

I didn't say you sed that either
I was just giving 2 months that I think. Wasn't an respond on your reaction at all =)

 

[infiniteV115]

That 2nd line was a response to Ishiey

 

[Dark.Pch]

No one's going to offer you (or anyone else) a spot in the BBR. No one's so hot a commodity as to be able to completely ignore the application process and still get in. If you want to get in, put in an application the next time it's around and hope for the best. If not, then we'll assume you don't care to be a part of it.

If you're active and reasonably respectful, maybe you can play a role in the matchup chart (due to getting people from each character board to help specifically with that). That said, if you're worried about how other people think of you, that's a pretty good chance for growth as a person. Either don't concern yourself with how other people think of you or become what you perceive as a more likable individual. Your call.

There have been times were people were asked to be in without putting in an app. And in my opinion I still believe people hold that past image of me cause even today I still hear things people won't let go. But you I get it.

 

[Ishiey]

Yeah lol my bad, I assumed you meant right after March/April is a reasonable estimate, we'll see.

@ Dark.Pch, such as? For people who got in without an app, I mean.

 

[bubbaking]

Dedede isn't going to be more viable without mk lol
IC's,Olimar,Diddy,Falco are going to be more commen and they **** dedede as well so yeah doesn't change a lot.

I was only giving one example, lolz! Besides, what you stated applies perfectly to Wario as well. In an MK-banned environment, Wario's counters would be much more common and I don't think he'd even be Top Tier material at all, anymore.

Edit: And Falco doesn't **** DDD. In all honesty, Diddy doesn't either if you know how to play the MU.

 

[Dark.Pch]

@ Dark.Pch, such as? For people who got in without an app, I mean.

From what I remember:

Mikey Lenentia
Admudues (idk how to spell that name)
And I believe Nicole.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Edit: And Falco doesn't **** DDD. In all honesty, Diddy doesn't either if you know how to play the MU.

They're still losing matchups, though. Dedede has more losing matchups than Wario toward the high tiers.

 

[Luigi player]

I was only giving one example, lolz! Besides, what you stated applies perfectly to Wario as well. In an MK-banned environment, Wario's counters would be much more common and I don't think he'd even be Top Tier material at all, anymore.

Edit: And Falco doesn't **** DDD. In all honesty, Diddy doesn't either if you know how to play the MU.

Warios counterS? He wouldn't have one besides Dedede though...

 

[infiniteV115]

Wario's probably a bit better with MK legal, at worst the same. He loses a bad MU (MK), a terrible MU (DDD) cause DDD's popularity either doesn't change or gets lower, and with MK banned it's more likely that Brinstar and RC will be legal.

 

[bubbaking]

They're still losing matchups, though. Dedede has more losing matchups than Wario toward the high tiers.

I'm not disputing that. I'm disputing that Wario is Top Tier. He has three -2's and an additional -1 against a Mid Tier character. Not only that, he only has two +3's at all, and only against Low/Bottom Tier chars. Even ZSS and G&W have more than that.

Edit: DDD also has a lot more really good MUs than Wario (and a better MU spread).

Warios counterS? He wouldn't have one besides Dedede though...

Yes, he does. Wario has a -2 against MK, Marth, and DDD, and he has a -1 against Peach. With MK gone, I'm pretty sure Marth and Peach would be much more common, especially Peach (MK ***** Peach hard). His numerous 0's also probably beat him on certain stages. Even with MK gone, that's not Top Tier material at all. Every other Top Tier, with the exception of Falco, has no more than one -2 MU. Falco has two, but he also has two +4's to make up for it.

Edit: If you ask me, Wario should, at the very most, be in his own tier between High and Top Tier. Of course, creating a tier just for that is kinda ridiculous, but Wario's definitely closer to High Tier than Top. If such a tier WAS made, however, then I would expect that ZSS and Lucario would also be put in it, making a three char tier.

Wario's probably a bit better with MK legal, at worst the same. He loses a bad MU (MK), a terrible MU (DDD) cause DDD's popularity either doesn't change or gets lower, and with MK banned it's more likely that Brinstar and RC will be legal.

Marth is also a bad MU. It's worse than MK and maybe even as bad as DDD, since DDD has the aerial prowess and disjoint to deal with Wario even when he's not grabbing him. Also, RC may have its perks in the DDD:Wario MU, but it's got its downfalls too. Walls to be infinted on, walk-offs to be auto CG'd through, and various platforms that make getting rid of the bike that much more difficult.