Official BBR Tier List v7

[GOofyGV]

I think it should have an easier set up. Like 5 or 6 tiers and put characters in there without nuber ranking and say like those characters are A's and those are C's etc

 

[PMC66]

honetly i don't see how tourney results realistically effect the tier list that much considering it's still at the end of the day just a secretive governing bodies opinions.

I could list countless examples of characters who should be in different places yet bias stops them from being ranked where tourney results would put them.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

honetly i don't see how tourney results realistically effect the tier list that much considering it's still at the end of the day just a secretive governing bodies opinions.

I could list countless examples of characters who should be in different places yet bias stops them from being ranked where tourney results would put them.

The tier list is not entirely what it used to be: for the first time ever it was created not just through voting, but a weighted integration of BBR votes, SWF matchup chart v2 (weighted based on tier list v6) and monetary success corrected for popularity

10 characters

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

.........

We're not like, a government.
The BBR is put together with people who know this game, in and out, and are working to create lists with the least amount of bias.

We're not random low leveled players who just throw a list up.

And Ike is a good character. He's one of the best characters in FL.

 

[Dark.Pch]

People say ikes recovery is gimpable. Sure it is, but if you mess up your attempt, you take 20% in aether damage. Thats a lot of damage for something thats very easy to mess up.

This would go back to saying that how good/smart the play is takes into affect as well. Look at what you just said:

"if you mess up your attempt"

Thats not a character problem. Thats a player problem. thus you can not let that change the out of what one can do on his recovery. If I dont mess up hitting ike with toad on his up-B, That can be ikes stock. Im not a robot nor an I perfect. I will mess up. People will get free should on me. But I practice to make sure my success rate if over 70%. While other players might have not practice much and when they have the time to edgeguard Ike on toad, he gets back on with no fear or problem.

People say you call wall ike out but his airdodge and spotdodge are the best in game, plus with his fair and dash attack, his effective range is better than every other character. Meaning he doesnt have to get as close to you as, say wario, to hit you.

If I am walling you I pretty much have control of the match. I'm zoning you out and making it really hard for you to touch me. You are making attempts to get throw this wall and get a hit on me. Also you can not spotdoge or air dodge a stream of projectiles coming at you Like samus missile Lined up well. Same with a good use of them from the twilight kids. You are gonna get hit out of your spot/airdodge.

People can wall you and be at a safe range where throwing out dash attacks will leave you open. And with projectiles character, I dont have to be near you to get damage. Which can force Ike to approach if I have the % or stock lead. And with what I said about Ike before, he does not have solid means of getting in. Reasons like this is why Ally usually comes out on top over San, even though they go for blood in their matches. Need to realize the difficulty of something to work. Ike has a shot to get it. But take into account of how hard it is to do so.

Its not about how many weaknesses a character has, its about how abusable they are, and how well they can be overcome.

I believe I pretty much explained this already.

The ICs have a number of well known weaknesses, but people still think thwy are between numbe 2 and 5 in the game. On the other hand, Ness only has 1 or 2 fundamental weaknesses, but hes arguably low tier.

Im gonna be real with you and I don't care how many IC players or in general wanna get butt hurt over this. half the time IC get away with stuff cause of fear. They know for a fact they get grabbed ones, thats the stock/game. it players a factor when placings/money is on the line. While you are playing a game, emotions will kick in

-confidence
- fear
- anger
- joy

Win or lose, emotion kicks in. We are not robots. They are the only character in this game that have a a death grab. They will use w/e gimmick they have to get a grab or put fear in one person to get a grab. They just end the stock with lil to no effort (now IC players, Im not saying thier chain grab is easy, so you if you gonna take offense to this, relax) There are a few characters that can shut them down well. People sometimes are afraid to do so in fear of messing up ONCE. Just one time, and that change the outcome of a match.

Now I have seen a few IC that are legit. But most of them rely on 2 things

- some gimmick to land a grab
- Opponents messed up or mispace a move to get a effortless stock.

Again we are not robots, we will screw up, and IC players know this. And would usually hope for this to get the game over with. This is why people think they way they do with that character. I would never agree to them being 2-5.

 

[Kuro~]

Ike is borderline imo.

 

[PMC66]

.........

We're not like, a government.
The BBR is put together with people who know this game, in and out, and are working to create lists with the least amount of bias.

We're not random low leveled players who just throw a list up.

And Ike is a good character. He's one of the best characters in FL.

It's still biast though *ROB *cough *cough D3 *cough cough *Marth who never manages barely jack **** regardless of being so badly overused and having such a low success rate *cough cough

 

[Delta-cod]

It's funny cuz you talk as though you aren't biased.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

^^^^^

lol

 

[Dark.Pch]

The BBR is put together with people who know this game, in and out,

I don't believe this. Cause some are there cause of what they know with said character. About half of them I have never heard do anything in tournaments or ever heard of in general. You can't just know something in and out without having full experience. Can't know something fully just by sitting behind a computer. or going by what you hear on the streets. Most stuff is learned by experience. Good experience at that. And I can assure you have of them don't know the fundementals of a fighting game in general that cam be used for this game that can change a few things.

If everyone is in there for some reason, then thats fine. But you saying they are in there cause they know the game in and out is a straight lie dude. You even know that.

 

[C.J.]

Yep, you got it, PMC. You, alone, know more than me, DEHF, Nick Riddle, etc etc combined. You're right, we're all wrong. Along with the MU chart, John#s data, etc.

Whatever you say.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

The opinions of the BBR are only a factor in the tier list anyway. This one used an otherwise reasonably scientific process (I presume).

 

[C.J.]

It was a combined our votes, John #'s data, and the MU chart.

 

[GOofyGV]

but mu chart was not 100 right according to most people and money popularity is not really agreat way to make this list imo.

So many mk's do go to tourney but don't get money making his money/popularity not the best even though mk is used the most and gets the most money. Like pokemon trainer is 6th or 7th accoding to that list? because like only reflex ever uses him and he wins cash.

 

[C.J.]

The MU chart isn't perfect, but it was largely accurate.

Money/usage was an overall relatively small influence.

Go read the first 10 pages of the thread since this was all talked about a lot when it was first released.

 

[Sinister Slush]

It's still biast though *ROB *cough *cough D3 *cough cough *Marth who never manages barely jack **** regardless of being so badly overused and having such a low success rate *cough cough

ROB is fine where he is, top of mid. D3 is also fine, hell with the main people who use him quitting or using other characters like MK. I'd almost put him beneath Toon Link.
Also, Marth does not have a low success rate. Please do your research on more than just NA before posting.

It's funny cuz you talk as though you aren't biased.

This and you straight up saying the BBR is biased being hilariously wrong.

I don't believe this. Cause some are there cause of what they know with said character. About half of them I have never heard do anything in tournaments or ever heard of in general. You can't just know something in and out without having full experience. Can't know something fully just by sitting behind a computer. or going by what you hear on the streets. Most stuff is learned by experience. Good experience at that.

You don't need to play smash 24/7 to be good at debating and knowing the ins and outs of about 10 or so characters.

 

[Vinnie]

(I don't feel like quoting)

I agree with dark.pch that you should have credentials upon being in the BBR, it would be taken more seriously if that happened. It's another reason why I'll never take part in a matchup chart, there are too many people that aren't good that are spewing really stupid garbage that ends up hurting the MU chart.

I completely disagree with dark.pch in the sense that ICs aren't less than top 2.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Can't please everyone. Different opinions on a Match up or so that you may not agree on.
No list will be 100% accurate anyways.

 

[DeLux]

(I don't feel like quoting)

I agree with dark.pch that you should have credentials upon being in the BBR, it would be taken more seriously if that happened. It's another reason why I'll never take part in a matchup chart, there are too many people that aren't good that are spewing really stupid garbage that ends up hurting the MU chart.

I completely disagree with dark.pch in the sense that ICs aren't less than top 2.

Top 12*

Aren't less than top 12

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I would listen to DeLux.

He knows things that would shake the foundation of the Ice Climbers' ivory tower.

 

[PMC66]

ROB is fine where he is, top of mid. D3 is also fine, hell with the main people who use him quitting or using other characters like MK. I'd almost put him beneath Toon Link.
Also, Marth does not have a low success rate. Please do your research on more than just NA before posting.


actually his correlated success/ popularity ratio is below a ton of characters if i remember, he's below half the roster. I'm pretty sure any characters as overused as Marth is would take some decent wins. Yet even with so many users his results are still lack luster, none of the Marth mains really put in the work alot of other characters did and he's above Pikachu in particular look at Esam's successes Marth doesn't deserve to be that high if the tier list truly is tournament results then why is Marth that high.

my point is nobody really earns their character higher places it's just a big concoction of bandwagon theories from a select few at the end of they day. My point is if people really did earn their character to get higher on the tier list don't you think it's odd that Marth is so high when he does barely anything of note? Or that D3 is where he is when to be honest he doesn't deserve to be there nowadays. 3-4 years ago i cut people slack with ROB, we all spammed side stepping and got hit with D-smash now the players and Meta game have evolved and gotten more advanced, ROB is not top of mid he is garbage. Go main the character for a year then tell me he's good i love using him but even today he's overhyped. Germany have the right idea with ROB putting him all the way in low tier.

@ CJ everyone is entitled to thier opinion but if ROB is that high on a list then yes i know more than all of you about that character heck anybody who thinks ROB is even remotely good or top of mid tier, doesn't know ROB in sufficient depth (or choose to be overly optimistic like MR.Eric) i'm sorry. Nuff said

 

[DeLux]

I would listen to DeLux.

He knows things that would shake the foundation of the Ice Climbers' ivory tower.

Nah man, Vinnie definitely knows more than me. If I knew enough, I'd win. But I don't so I'd defer to him.

In my hands they are top 12. In his they are top... 5ish

 

[Dark.Pch]

You don't need to play smash 24/7 to be good at debating and knowing the ins and outs of about 10 or so characters.

In and outs of 10 characters? You kinow how big this roster is? If you just to give a damm about that many, that not finishing your job. What about the rest. And you are right, You don't need to play this game 24/7 to know stuff. But your experience with this game shows how qualified you are with this game.

Experience>visual/voice.

If I was to same something about Peach that the BBR was wrong about along with the peach players that are in there, who you think People are gonna listen too? They are gonna go with what the BBR cause they are suppose to be the elite squad with info on this game. I am able to prove my point while the BBR can't. But because I am not with the smash goverment, My word won't be looked and what I know with Peach will not be used. which could help improve meta game and match ups.

This stuff happens all the time. Out of curiousity I have watched and even tested some members to see why they are in there. Most don't have experience, most can't produce. You have to break things down. You can't not get lazy. Having a purple name should now mean to feel like a top of the community and your words are final. Thats what I would call a corrupt goverment.

For the smash community, if you are in there, the members of the community are trusting you to be as legit as possible. We know that a tier list is never gonna be accurate. Because someone is always gonna have a problem with a position of a characters. ALWAYS. The least one can do is try to make it as legit as possible. And to do something like this, you can't get lazy.

Memembers of the BBR tend to get tired of how the community complains about stuff. The thing it, it becomes quite obvious at times how people get lazy in some cases. When it came to me asking questions about Peach from the BBR, people could not answer me if the BBR got any type of info on Peach, it was mostly from me and not the members. This info should be dished out from the members. So what that showed me is:

- People did not do their homework and explore peach fully
- People dont give a damm about Peach and just wanna keep saying she is a bad character
- People in there did not know much to nothing on Peach when question were asked.

Thats kinda said that I had to be the one to do a job of the BBR. And they have like....5-6 Peach mains at the time. like really? And this is not with just Peach. I have seen this thing happen with other characters questioned about. Thats not good. People can't produce and/or give correct info. How can members of this community trust a group like that and not wanna be bothered with questions you have been bothered for years? Members as a whole should be working hard and able to handle all areas. From what I seen, lots can't do that.

I understand one person in the BBR would know EVERYTHING. But you should have a mixture of that as a group to where one thing is asked or over looked, BBR has a member to produce.

(I don't feel like quoting)

I completely disagree with dark.pch in the sense that ICs aren't less than top 2.

I knew you would and for obvious reasons. So there really isn't a point of getting into a debate with you on why they are not. So have at your opinion, and I'll have at mines. I'm gonna leave it as it is.

 

[da K.I.D.]

In and outs of 10 characters? You kinow how big this roster is? If you just to give a damm about that many, that not finishing your job. What about the rest. And you are right, You don't need to play this game 24/7 to know stuff. But your experience with this game shows how qualified you are with this game.
.

Not that im disagreeing here, I fully agree with your point.

My only question is that, since you only talk about Peach, would you consider yourself knowledgable on the entire cast as a whole that you would be a viable candidate for the BBR?

Im not asking if you think they would bring you on. You seem to not have an interest in it anyway, but even if you wanted to, it wouldnt seem to me like you would have the complete game, and full cast knowledge that one would expect of someone in the Backroom, considering you only speak on matters revolving around your one character. Feel free to correct me if I've missed something.

 

[Sinister Slush]

If I was to same something about Peach that the BBR was wrong about along with the peach players that are in there, who you think People are gonna listen too? They are gonna go with what the BBR cause they are suppose to be the elite squad with info on this game. I am able to prove my point while the BBR can't. But because I am not with the smash goverment, My word won't be looked and what I know with Peach will not be used. which could help improve meta game and match ups.

They'll listen to the BBR members of course, but they also listen to outside sources. I mean, the MU chart wasn't consisted of 100% BBR members only for example.
Saying that your wall of text about Peach being thrown to the side while another Peach main with just a purple name with 2 lines of sentences gets accepted compared to yours is not really correct.

This stuff happens all the time. Out of curiousity I have watched and even tested some members to see why they are in there. Most don't have experience, most can't produce. You have to break things down. You can't not get lazy. Having a purple name should now mean to feel like a top of the community and your words are final. Thats what I would call a corrupt goverment.

I'd ask which members you asked, but that wouldn't be important as of right now.

- People did not do their homework and explore peach fully
- People dont give a damm about Peach and just wanna keep saying she is a bad character
- People in there did not know much to nothing on Peach when question were asked.

Saying people don't do their homework is both right and wrong. It just really depends on who you're referring too whenever you argued with someone about peach. You'll run into those members who know little to nothing about peach, and then those that have a good grasp of Peach's metagame and her match ups. Also Illmatic is back there now and despite quitting, I'm sure he posts still, along with Nicole.

Not everyone says she's bad, and I'm sure the people who do say that are most likely the bad members of the BBR you've dealt with in the past. Not all of them are brainless idiots that're completely biased and don't give a damn about data and results along with being stubborn and not listening to other peoples arguments.

Depends who was back there at the time when the tierlist was discussed. Nicole and Praxis only?

Thats kinda said that I had to be the one to do a job of the BBR. And they have like....5-6 Peach mains at the time. like really? And this is not with just Peach. I have seen this thing happen with other characters questioned about.

Not every character can have 5+ Members back there. Hell, Yoshi for example only has Yika back there as of now. Most we ever had was Polt Hades and Yika. And Yika is out of commission for now and unable to even help with some things.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Not that im disagreeing here, I fully agree with your point.

My only question is that, since you only talk about Peach, would you consider yourself knowledgable on the entire cast as a whole that you would be a viable candidate for the BBR?

Im not asking if you think they would bring you on. You seem to not have an interest in it anyway, but even if you wanted to, it wouldnt seem to me like you would have the complete game, and full cast knowledge that one would expect of someone in the Backroom, considering you only speak on matters revolving around your one character. Feel free to correct me if I've missed something.

Only characters I know well out of Peach is Zelda, Link, Marth and Mario. I would obviously know how the rest of the cast works since I fight them. But I would not be qualified speak about them in terms of match ups and stages with them. But if I wanted to be an elite player, I would have to brush up and play alot of characters. hence what NinjaLink did. he could use nearly the whole roster at top level. Cause he took the time to seriously study the game and break it down. And he used all his characters at high levels in tournament play.

But saying this I don't counterpick characters in tournaments. I'm all peach. If I actually gave a damm about money. I would increase my matches to place high By having a pocket marth to get some green (though I strongly believe I am capable of downing that without out no pocket characters).

I could share what I know on the others but I focus on peach more than anything cause Not much has changed. People still saying the same stuff since 2008. cry about the same stuff there are answers too already. And I truly feel Peach is bottom of B tier. I also do this cause newcomers going into the character or wish to learn more about here ten to hear the same BS I do. And I don't what that to hinder those players from working hard with this character. Peach takes hella work. You can not get lazy with her. I spit info that people did not know about here. and people usually come to me alot privatly and ask me questions. And since peach is the only character I use in tourny. it be best I focus all my time on her to get better find new things, play her past this current meta game and do justice.

I could have qualified for the BBR a while ago. Reason I was not in cause of how I would act on this site and the image I gave people with the emo BS and etc. So people always looked down on me. they might still to this day. And they would not want one like me in there. So at this point I don't really try to qualify for the BBR due to that image that I think people still hold on me. If I was offered the spot I be surpised as hell and maybe I would take it............maybe. if that answers your question.

They'll listen to the BBR members of course, but they also listen to outside sources. I mean, the MU chart wasn't consisted of 100% BBR members only for example.
Saying that your wall of text about Peach being thrown to the side while another Peach main with just a purple name with 2 lines of sentences gets accepted compared to yours is not really correct.

You don't get it. With the example I just gave, I am correct and the BBR is wrong. But because they have purple name, BBR is gonna win and be implying wrong info to the community that can screw **** up or make match ups harder then it should be. Thats is my point Though I never said They don't listen to the communitys words.

Also I never really said my info gets thrown to the side. I clearly said that most of the info the BBR knows on Peach did not come from their members. it mostly came from me.

Saying people don't do their homework is both right and wrong. It just really depends on who you're referring too whenever you argued with someone about peach. You'll run into those members who know little to nothing about peach, and then those that have a good grasp of Peach's metagame and her match ups. Also Illmatic is back there now and despite quitting, I'm sure he posts still, along with Nicole.

I'll but it this way. I feel half the people in the BBR don't do their homework. You say it is both right and wrong. In terms half are legit and the other half are not. The bad half is just being carried by the good half and not producing anything. So what is the point of them being there? See what I am saying?

Ok, Illmatic can know stuff, which is good. I will not say anything on him cause I have no clue how much info he can spit out And why he was put in there. Idk what goes on in there. if I was to go by past experience, I would say I can break Peach down better then any peach player ever has on this site. Some will give you 2 liners to a paragraph, while I give you a damm text book on a small part of her. And I have for years.

Not everyone says she's bad, and I'm sure the people who do say that are most likely the bad members of the BBR you've dealt with in the past. Not all of them are brainless idiots that're completely biased and don't give a damn about data and results along with being stubborn and not listening to other peoples arguments.

Depends who was back there at the time when the tierlist was discussed. Nicole and Praxis only?

No, still to this day, same stuff since 08. people going on how bad she is and how she can do/deal with this and that. I actually keep track of what Peach players do from the start till now. I also keep track of what I been hearing over the years. And from my eyes. Only reason Peach is this high on the tier list is cause of solo on tourny results. Not on her general standards as a character explored.

Not every character can have 5+ Members back there. Hell, Yoshi for example only has Yika back there as of now. Most we ever had was Polt Hades and Yika. And Yika is out of commission for now and unable to even help with some things.

never once said a character needed 5+ characters all a character. 1-2 is good enough. What matters is how these people (person), good at giving info or the correct info for that matter.

 

[Orion*]

\ there are too many people that aren't good that are spewing really stupid garbage that ends up hurting the MU chart.

to a large degree I agree with you

But to be fair, and you are not the only one so I'm not trying to single you out or mean you disrespect something, but I also think you acted like a baby back there during the project LMAO.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I could have qualified for the BBR a while ago. Reason I was not in cause of how I would act on this site and the image I gave people with the emo BS and etc. So people always looked down on me. they might still to this day. And they would not want one like me in there. So at this point I don't really try to qualify for the BBR due to that image that I think people still hold on me. If I was offered the spot I be surpised as hell and maybe I would take it............maybe. if that answers your question.

No one's going to offer you (or anyone else) a spot in the BBR. No one's so hot a commodity as to be able to completely ignore the application process and still get in. If you want to get in, put in an application the next time it's around and hope for the best. If not, then we'll assume you don't care to be a part of it.

If you're active and reasonably respectful, maybe you can play a role in the matchup chart (due to getting people from each character board to help specifically with that). That said, if you're worried about how other people think of you, that's a pretty good chance for growth as a person. Either don't concern yourself with how other people think of you or become what you perceive as a more likable individual. Your call.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Guys, Ike isn't a good character. He's a *bad* character - I think you got that mixed up a bit. Not as bad a character as others are but bad enough to deserve to be called bad, straight-up.

 

[ShadowLink84]

It's still biast though *ROB *cough *cough D3 *cough cough *Marth who never manages barely jack **** regardless of being so badly overused and having such a low success rate *cough cough

There may be bias within individual members of the SBR but the system used to create the tier list works to filter out the bias.
Furthermore, why shouldn't Marth remain in his current spot?
Before you go "LOL RESULTS", what other argument do you have?
Results can be used to add to your argument but should never be the basis of your argument since it can be twisted around quite easily.

 

[infiniteV115]

Mikeneko just got 1st at a tournament in Japan btw, beating Abadango, Shu, Brood and Otori twice.
ie, Otori twice, the rest of them once.

Um, I'm assuming he went full Marth?

 

[ShadowLink84]

Mikeneko just got 1st at a tournament in Japan btw, beating Abadango, Shu, Brood and Otori twice.
ie, Otori twice, the rest of them once.

Um, I'm assuming he went full Marth?

But Marth is bad for unknown reasons!

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

But Marth is bad for unknown reasons!

No one said Marth is bad, we said he's not top tier, and so far there has been next to no indication that he is.

 

[DMG]

That depends on what you define Top tier as. If you make the cut off like 3-4 characters, no he doesn't fit.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Implying Marth is anywhere near being top 5.

 

[PMC66]

There may be bias within individual members of the SBR but the system used to create the tier list works to filter out the bias.
Furthermore, why shouldn't Marth remain in his current spot?
Before you go "LOL RESULTS", what other argument do you have?
Results can be used to add to your argument but should never be the basis of your argument since it can be twisted around quite easily.

my point is mainers dont earn a higher character spot for who they rep its still opinion and community band wagon theories.

 

[infiniteV115]

imo Marth being top 5 is a possibility, I'd just feel more strongly about it if Marth had more rep
Erm...more good rep.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Marth had as much rep as he needs. If he was top tier, it would show by now

 

[Shaya]

Marth had as much rep as he needs. If he was top tier, it would show by now

Marth is actually harder to use than Ice Climbers, Olimar, Diddy Kong and obviously Lucario combined. Physically, mentally, technically and also human hands aren't designed to backwards reverse crab claw to be perfectly efficient with Marth's high tech super spacing.

Swords are just easy at low level but a few hundred thousand times harder at top level unless you have five jumps, tornado and transcended priority (i.e. "I can make less mistakes" qualities)

 

[GOofyGV]

Marth would be like 2nd if every move would get spaced right. But that will never be the case because Humans can't be perfect. Marth is fine where he is right now imo.

Also What do people refer under marth being overused?