Official BBR Tier List v7

[infiniteV115]

If you're going to quote me next time I would advise include my entire post instead of just writing "stuff," some people might take that offensively.

o.o
I do that to make my posts smaller XD

 

[Seagull Joe]

vs matchup in a nutshell: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRN11kiei_g

 

[RaptorTEC]

Free money either way.



1) Who is this Yoshi who has given you plenty of experience?

2) Is that Yoshi doing it right?

LOL @ DDD beating a character fifty times more mobile than him, that camps him, has the tools to avoid the grab easily, juggles/combos the **** out of him, harasses his recovery, and doesn't get gimped himself.

Like, if DDD didn't live till 160%+ reliably Yoshi would win the MU for sure.

I used to absolutely hate this mu but Delta is right about everything he said here. The only scary thing about the mu for Yoshi is when D3 gets him in the air and even then it isn't THAT bad. The cg can be avoided easily thanks to Yoshis speed in general. Egg lay and dtilt are godly in this mu. The only problem is killing D3 which imo keeps this mu even or barely a -1. I'm mostly siding with even though.

Also, please don't tell me this really good Yoshi you're talking about is John12346 x_x No offense to you or him.

 

[Sinister Slush]

John#'s plays Yoshi?
Thought he played Lucario.

 

[bubbaking]

If by even we mean combo punching bag for fox, then ok.

Lolz, we don't even need combos. Throw offstage, gimp, next stock please?

LOL @ DDD beating a character fifty times more mobile than him, that camps him, has the tools to avoid the grab easily, juggles/combos the **** out of him, harasses his recovery, and doesn't get gimped himself.

Like, if DDD didn't live till 160%+ reliably Yoshi would win the MU for sure.

What? Yoshi camps as well (or as badly, however you wanna look at it) as DDD does. Doesn't get gimped? Dude, DDD can just grab you out of your DJ and GR you. The only chars DDD doesn't get a good shot at gimping are MK, Kirby, and Jiggs, G&W, and Samus. Even if you manage to DJ SA through my gimp attempt, it's free damage.

I looked through this. it seems they can both give each other hell. I looked at this match up at high level play, I learned and read all the options they have. How they can abuse weaknesses and the difficulty of it.

From everything that I have learned. I'm gonna have to give it to snake. DDD Can make life hell for snake. But thats only if he gets in. Snake makes it hella hard for DDD to get in. Smart use of grenades and traps, he can reduce the damage of a chain grab and break it early. Or force you to let him go.

if snake needs to close the game, he can. If he needs to force an approach he can. Snake has control of the match most of the time. To do what you have to do to beat snake, you have to get in, and that is hard. that was the tie breaker to me. chances are he will be abusing you more then you will be abusing him.

So with that said, I think snake wins.

If you got as far as the third page, you would have seen that I have had a discussion with Fatal (at that Boston tournament) about the DDD:Snake MU. He personally believes it is even with maybe a very slight advantage to DDD. Most of the top DDD's think it's around even as well. Also, I forgot to talk about two key parts of this MU (but you may have seen them mentioned in that MU analysis thread): Stages and Lead Advantages.

I don't think there are many stages that give large advantages to Snake without also providing DDD with some very nice benefits, but there are plenty that give DDD the tools he needs (walls, walk-offs, upward slopes, water, ice, treadmills, passable floors for sharking, etc.) to do even more dirty things to Snake.

If Snake gets a lead, it's obvious that it will be hard to take it back, but the whole MU is based around DDD trying to get in and then reaping huge rewards anyway, so it's not hard to believe that DDD could completely eliminate a lead that Snake is holding from just one successful approach. If DDD gets a lead, he can camp Snake back for the remainder of the match. He can Waddle camp, he can air camp, and he can platform camp. If Snake tries to approach, there is a good chance that he will be grabbed and greatly punished for it. DDD's ftilt also ***** most of Snake's good approaching methods. Shieldgrab does the rest.

 

[NickRiddle]

Yoshi doesn't die from GR off stage.

Also, Seibrik thinks DDD ****s on Snake right now.

 

[Vinnie]

Jesus christ it's hard to do though, it's like trying to kill a fish underwater with a fly swatter.

I enjoyed this.

Also +1 for Dedede beating Snake solidly & going even with Fox.

My exp for D3 vs Snake:

I beat ANTi's Snake with D3
I 2 stocked Bizkit in tourney
I went 1-1 with Fatal in tourney in that MU (before I got better at the MU)
My d3 ****s on Ramin's snake @Ramin Delshad

 

[bubbaking]

Yoshi doesn't die from GR off stage.

How so?

 

[da K.I.D.]

Bubba, you are highly over estimating your character.

This is Brawl son, gimps are not as prevalent as you like to believe

Also, if seagull could stop posting in one line generalities as if it is the word of god or something, that would be wonderful

 

[Sinister Slush]

Yoshi doesn't die from GR off stage.

This and what Yoshi is stupid enough to waste Doublejump first when trying to get back to stage? Unless you play with tap jump on like Raptor and some others.
Either they throw two eggs, which is enough to come back to the stage if they get hit off it. Or only other time they'd use DJ is after they used Uair to prevent themselves from dying. And after doing that, we'd basically be at the top of the level.

 

[bubbaking]

1) Who is this Yoshi who has given you plenty of experience?

2) Is that Yoshi doing it right?

Also, please don't tell me this really good Yoshi you're talking about is John12346 x_x No offense to you or him.

Lolz! Raptor, I played YOU quite a few times at all the Impacts I attended (all of them except IV) and also at that free fest you had at the same venue once. My friend (Ness main) has also played you a few times and he told me he went about even with you in all your friendlies. Also, when did I ever say "really good Yoshi"? Sorry buddy, but we're both scrubs so if you've lost to us, one of us maining a bad character while at it, then I don't think you qualify.

I've actually never done this MU against John's Yoshi. He usually goes Lucario against my DDD, especially after I proved to him that I can actually beat him during a serious set.

John#'s plays Yoshi?
Thought he played Lucario.

Well actuallyyyyy, for a time he was seriously trying to pick up Yoshi as a secondary for "MU coverage" (don't know how that applies in this case). He's also done the same for Pit and Marth. He is a Lucario main, though.

o.o
I do that to make my posts smaller XD

Tbh, so do I. I don't think anyone would want my walls of text to be even bigger.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Bubba, you are highly over estimating your character.

This is Brawl son, gimps are not as prevalent as you like to believe

Also, if seagull could stop posting in one line generalities as if it is the word of god or something, that would be wonderful

No thanks feeble one :master:.

 

[-LzR-]

Jesus christ it's hard to do though, it's like trying to kill a fish underwater with a fly swatter.

This is the best thing I've heard for a while.

 

[Delta-cod]

What? Yoshi camps as well (or as badly, however you wanna look at it) as DDD does.

Camping does not necessitate the throwing of projectiles. If we get a lead you have to approach regardless, and we beat DDD's approaches better than the other way around.

Not to mention our projectile covers us better at close range if we happen to mess up, and can actually be used for a frame trap.

Doesn't get gimped? Dude, DDD can just grab you out of your DJ and GR you. The only chars DDD doesn't get a good shot at gimping are MK, Kirby, and Jiggs, G&W, and Samus. Even if you manage to DJ SA through my gimp attempt, it's free damage.

See, you might have had credibility. Until the bolded. That's like, 2008 thinking. The fact that you think that works already means all experience you have is irrelevant. Yoshi's haven't gotten gimped by GR in forever. Unless you consider blatant **** ups by the player to be a flaw of Yoshi the character.

In order to Grab us out of our DJ and even ATTEMPT a gimp with it, you need to be at the ledge, meaning air dodging through you is a valid way to recover, because you've given up ledge traps and stage control for an attempt at a completely irrelevant gimmick.

DDD is too slow in the air to effectively pressure us by jumping off the stage and trying to Bair us to death as well. So, sorry, you're not gimping us. You're better off sitting at the ledge and trying to trap us there. Except we can still threaten you with eggs from the ledge, which are effective at diminishing your shield and harassing you well enough that it becomes difficult to focus on keeping an effective trap. Every egg you get hit by is +9% for us, as well.

DDD is too slow to reliably have a chance at gimping/pressuring Yoshi, lol.

 

[Dark.Pch]

If you got as far as the third page, you would have seen that I have had a discussion with Fatal (at that Boston tournament) about the DDD:Snake MU. He personally believes it is even with maybe a very slight advantage to DDD. Most of the top DDD's think it's around even as well. Also, I forgot to talk about two key parts of this MU (but you may have seen them mentioned in that MU analysis thread): Stages and Lead Advantages.

I don't think there are many stages that give large advantages to Snake without also providing DDD with some very nice benefits, but there are plenty that give DDD the tools he needs (walls, walk-offs, upward slopes, water, ice, treadmills, passable floors for sharking, etc.) to do even more dirty things to Snake.

If Snake gets a lead, it's obvious that it will be hard to take it back, but the whole MU is based around DDD trying to get in and then reaping huge rewards anyway, so it's not hard to believe that DDD could completely eliminate a lead that Snake is holding from just one successful approach. If DDD gets a lead, he can camp Snake back for the remainder of the match. He can Waddle camp, he can air camp, and he can platform camp. If Snake tries to approach, there is a good chance that he will be grabbed and greatly punished for it. DDD's ftilt also ***** most of Snake's good approaching methods. Shieldgrab does the rest.

I just feel approaching is what makes things a pain, thats why I gave it to snake. That broke the even situation. I don't see DDD having solid approaches to get in. I will say good use of ftilt does give snake problems and can help you get in.

The use of tilts on DDD reminds me of how I get in on snake as peach. So maybe there is something there that can help deliver the **** on him. Im willing to chance my mind. it's just getting in on a good snake that has my mind set. if DDD can reduce the difficulty on getting in, then I would agree it is even.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Along with the fact that when it comes to the D3 and Yoshi MU, it consists of 3... maybe 4 moves at most for Yoshi.
Egg toss, Bair, and egglay for juggling and racking up damage. 4th move is literally just throwing out Uair whenever we get him in the air and trying to land that.

USmash and Fsmash ends almost 40 frames on both moves before we're able to do anything, so we most likely would not be trying to use either move against D3 since it'd just get Powershielded or spotdodged then result in us just getting grabbed across the stage or backthrown for 16%.

While DownB is also a fast start up and one of our main kill moves, it doesn't end for almost 70 frames prior to using it. So out of our main 4 kill moves our safest one against D3 is Uair. Which again, we'd be using most of the time since we'll be busy using egglay while we're landing to get D3 in the air along with maybe attempting Egglay chains to keep you off the stage more and in the air much longer for juggling.

Oh, and if we don't even want to risk taking Dair damage from D3, we can just stay on the ground and chuck eggs till you land as we either Pivot grab or egglay you just to toss you back where penguins don't belong. I sure as hell would hope there isn't a single person out there that would chase D3 offstage too...

 

[| Big D |]

Yoshi is a pain for Dedede and this MU requires a lot of patience on both ends.

Played this MU tons yesterday with Firefly and here's my input.

How this MU usually goes down is Yoshi will be sitting near the ledge throwing eggs.

Dedede wants to approach by walking and PSing everything. Where things get interesting is when Dedede gets within a dash length of Yoshi. There are so many RPS options and mixups involved it's nuts. Mainly what Yoshi is going to mix up is egg toss, dash grabs, shorthhop bairs and egg lays. In this distance, we almost want to react to what they do keeping their options in mind. A short hop approach from Yoshi can be beaten out by a bair, but keep in mind if they see that bair out they might just not approach and retreat to the ledge. However on the ledge we can beat out their eggs with ftilts, meaning we can stay close to the ledge and apply pressure without having to wear down our shield or retreat. But back to the shorthop, if we throw out a bair and they just keep throwing eggs out on the ground, we just ate damage and are in the air where Yoshi can cover many landing options with his mobility, however we also have a lot of mix ups with out landing options, an entire other RPS game. Any grounded approach gets beaten by ftilt, but if we ftilt and they shorthop before that happens, then we get egg layed or bair'd. Egg tosses at a dash lengths distance are hard to punish but we can run and shield grab, although it can be tough given the height of egg toss. We can also roll into them as a mix up but that isn't reliable, but the threat is there for Yoshi to consider.

Dedede can chose when he goes in and by rolling backwards as a means of applying pressure and baiting a dash grab or egg lay, but for the most part Yoshi is just going to keep throwing out eggs until you get in range. You can try and throw waddles to combat this but a smart Yoshi will know he out camps you.

Yoshi is a mobile character and that is why we have to react to them. We have the means keep them out and avoid eggs. The MU becomes easier if you keep these options in mind, instead of trying to read what option the Yoshi is going to select. We can react because we do out range Yoshi on our aerials/grounded moves. However we can't pivot grab egg lay/dash grab so it will either take a read to land it but in most case our punishes will not be that large in percent. If either side loses patience they are going to eat a lot of damage. Yoshi can style on Dedede if you aren't patient with egg lays, bairs, egg toss, upsmash, while obvious approaches from Yoshi can be spotdodged/pivot grabbed. It may not look as nice as Yoshi but our chaingrab does exist and can be combo'd into dtilt at high percent.

As far as killing goes, they both have to get each other off stage or cover the other's landing. Yoshi's quick moves like jab/dtilt/nair will put Dedede in a bad position off stage in a position to get killed by fsmash or upair if they read how we will recover. Dedede has his chain grab and and moves like bair/dtilt to get them to the ledge. In some cases if the spacing happens to be right you can combo into dtilt. Also dthrowing Yoshi off stage opens them up to a ledge drop fair, however assuming both players know the MU Yoshi won't get hit by this but it will force him to use his double jump, giving the Dedede player a similar read and react game to Yoshi in terms how he punishes his recovery.

I'd say if both players know the MU it's even or +1 Dedede, only due to the fact that Dedede will live longer and he has the tools to deal with approaches, but Yoshi will control the pace of the match in this regard. The MU requires a lot of focus on both ends and if played right it will be mentally exhausting if both players know the MU. Both players can use their projectiles as a means to force the other to lose patience but where most interactions will happen will be near the ledge within a dash length.

However if the Dedede does not know the MU, it's +3 Yoshi.

Edit: So many grammar mistakes : (

 

[RaptorTEC]

This and what Yoshi is stupid enough to waste Doublejump first when trying to get back to stage? Unless you play with tap jump on like Raptor and some others.
Either they throw two eggs, which is enough to come back to the stage if they get hit off it. Or only other time they'd use DJ is after they used Uair to prevent themselves from dying. And after doing that, we'd basically be at the top of the level.

I made the switch to tap jump off, Slush so I no longer have to worry about things like these.

Edit: Dont judge off of friendlies Bubba I dont care for them at all. :0 Heck ill go really low for fair spikes when people are at like 200% just for fun. Also sorry, I didnt even remember we played. xD

Edit again: Really good job explaining the mu Big D :0

 

[infiniteV115]

The only chars DDD doesn't get a good shot at gimping are MK, Kirby, and Jiggs, G&W, and Samus.

You'd better have top level experience against every character that isn't one of the 5 mentioned here, cause idk how DDD is supposed to have a 'good shot' at gimping
Snake, Falco, Pikachu, Wario, ZSS, Peach, Pit, ROB, Sonic, DK, Ike, Yoshi, Luigi

And if you really think he has a 'good shot' at gimping these guys you're either hardcore theorycrafting alongside a terrible understanding of how these characters work, or you're just really scraping the bottom of the barrel and labelling it a 'good shot'

 

[Delta-cod]

@ Slush: Down B is pretty reliable because even if it doesn't connect, it will usually stab his shield and at least not get punished.

Also, chasing DDD off stage isn't terrible. Use Egg Toss to set stuff up.

Yoshi's quick moves like jab/dtilt/nair will put Dedede in a bad position off stage in a position to get killed by fsmash or uptilt

Utilt kills?

Good writeup. I approve.

 

[bubbaking]

Infinite, I already said quite a few times that I've played against Fatal. I've also played against Trouble.

Edit: Problem, not Trouble. Rotfl!

 

[RaptorTEC]

Firefly must be a god if hes consistently killing you with utilt, Big D.
Lol at mixing up the words Problem and Trouble xD

 

[| Big D |]

I meant upair >: O

Edit: Fixed it

 

[Delta-cod]

I thought you mighta meant Usmash.

ANYWAYS

I think the MU lends itself to being more even because, as you said, Yoshi controls the pacing for the most part, and I think that's a huge advantage to have in a MU.

 

[Iota]

Wario is pretty easy to gimp as D3 when he's forced to recover low, especially if we're close to the stage, because our recovery becomes A LOT more linear or easier to punish.

 

[Delta-cod]

But why would Wario be forced to recover low consistently?

 

[Iota]

Bad DI. If Wario's hit with like d-tilt or bair and he DIs it awkwardly there's a good chance it could mean a free stock for D3 if he follows up properly. He shouldn't be forced to recover low otherwise though.

 

[Delta-cod]

That's what I figured. And if your ability to gimp a character relies on them having poor DI, then I don't think you actually have a good gimp game against said character.

 

[infiniteV115]

Infinite, I already said quite a few times that I've played against Fatal. I've also played against Trouble.

Edit: Problem, not Trouble. Rotfl!

Yeah, but how many times?
I played Zinoto and MJG once, that doesn't make me an expert on the ZSS:Diddy/TL MU.

And who the **** is Problem

 

[RaptorTEC]

Rally good Snake main from NY/NJ. He's stopped playing again though :/

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

This is Brawl son, gimps are not as prevalent as you like to believe

+1, gimps are pretty rare even on characters with bad recovery.

 

[Sinister Slush]

@ Slush: Down B is pretty reliable because even if it doesn't connect, it will usually stab his shield and at least not get punished.

Also, chasing DDD off stage isn't terrible. Use Egg Toss to set stuff up.

Depends, even if we stab his shield, will they continue shielding to not get hit by the stars or stay shielded and dash grab us?
Not saying it's horrible beyond belief, but still terrible if they run off the stage and try to fair instead of just egg tossing or even using egglay.

Firefly must be a god if hes consistently killing you with utilt, Big D.

I meant upair >: O

Edit: Fixed it

Okay now it makes more sense. Was getting confused when I kept reading Utilt.

 

[Delta-cod]

Depends, even if we stab his shield, will they continue shielding to not get hit by the stars or stay shielded and dash grab us?
Not saying it's horrible beyond belief, but still terrible if they run off the stage and try to fair instead of just egg tossing or even using egglay.

Not really sure what you mean here, both regarding the Down B or the chasing DDD. Do you mean getting chased or us chasing him?

Avoiding Fair while chasing him isn't a big deal. =/

 

[Sinister Slush]

When we downB, we're of course gonna try and hit D3 with it. Either we hit him, or he shields it and he's right next to us. Outcomes are either shieldpoked or shielded still and can grab/dash grab us for not hitting him.

Chasing him. For offstage, most Yoshi's want to try and spike them. For D3 he has neutral B to swallowcide, which is mostly what I was referring too.

 

[Delta-cod]

When we downB, we're of course gonna try and hit D3 with it. Either we hit him, or he shields it and he's right next to us. Outcomes are either shieldpoked or shielded still and can grab/dash grab us for not hitting him.

Chasing him. For offstage, most Yoshi's want to try and spike them. For D3 he has neutral B to swallowcide, which is mostly what I was referring too.

Ah, that's better.

Down B shieldpokes more often than not, but yeah, I get the point. I think it's a healthy risk/reward, though.

While swallowcide is a valid threat, I think it's adequately dealt with as long as we use Egg Toss to force him to do something that isn't Swallowcide, lol. I typically never chase DDD without throwing eggs at him first.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Depends on the player of course. Some tend to forget about swallowcide and chase D3 kirby etc. offstage.
Also yeah, DownB in this MU is high risk High Reward. 19% in exchange for possibly 16% or a few dthrows.

 

[Delta-cod]

Well, naturally bringing the players into it makes things less concrete. I still hold that chasing DDD with proper safeguards isn't a bad idea.

And DownB can be 19% + positioning/follow ups depending on what percent we hit DDD with it. Or a kill.

 

[Scatz]

There's a difference in a character's flaw and a person's heroic failure Bubba.

 

[Orion*]

+1, gimps are pretty rare even on characters with bad recovery.

the genuine reason for that is that we are bad. it shouldnt be some melee **** but people suck at edge guarding and ledge trapping in brawl

 

[da K.I.D.]

I disagree with that.

I main sonic, who is known to be a character with a fair amount of offstage prowess. I get a lot of hits on people offstage. But I very rarely get gimps at low percents because lots of people are actually rather GOOD at the game and everyone for the most part understands how to DI things properly, in order to gimp people, its not about how much you hit them offstage or even how hard you hit them offstage. Its more important WHERE you hit them offstage. the only way to get consistent gimps is with moves that have very low knockback angles. and very few moves have that. the only ones i can think of at the moment are MKs dair and shuttle loop, zeldas down smash and sheiks fair. And while Im sure that there are others, they arent so common so as to make low percent gimps a regular part of the game. If that happens to you it usually means you made a REALLY poor play or got read/mindgamed into something stupid like me baiting dodges into wolfs down air.

However, Its very easy to rack damage and get additional hits on people when they are offstage. And DDD is great at that. but people are so adept at sending themselves exactly into the corner, that things like that very rarely kill before percents that kill moves on stage would kill anyway.