Official BBR Tier List v7

[Seagull Joe]

Badflex? What is this 1st grader insults?

 

[Iota]

I thought that's all the smash community's creative ability was capable of for insults.

 

[NickRiddle]

Badflex? What is this 1st grader insults?

Maharba's education level?

 

[bubbaking]

I get a feeling this little mocking session could go sour reeaaal fast...

Yeah, but how many times?
I played Zinoto and MJG once, that doesn't make me an expert on the ZSS:Diddy/TL MU.

And who the **** is Problem

Fatal? It was a quarterfinals set, so I guess only once in bracket. We did a bunch of friendlies, so I understand if those don't count as much. Problem is a really good Snake in our region, but he had a little problem with consistency when I last saw him, so meh... Fought him once in bracket, too.

There's a difference in a character's flaw and a person's heroic failure Bubba.

Not sure what you mean by this.....

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

just ignore reflex. he's not good like you all think. we have a running joke out here about him being actually known as badflex. he camps with wario in ****ty region. props. he also masturbates to frame data. he left a booklet at our house with every frame and animation for everything ever in the game. ultimate theory crafter.

ultimate tryhard.

ultimate badflex.

fogo plz

You are a complete and total piece of ****.

 

[da K.I.D.]

his trolling isnt even funny or entertaining...

its just sad and wack.

 

[bubbaking]

the genuine reason for that is that we are bad. it shouldnt be some melee **** but people suck at edge guarding and ledge trapping in brawl

That's exactly what I mean! I know gimping isn't super dependable like it was in every other Smash iteration, but it's still something that should be a major part of a MU. It's like how people assume that DDD needs CG's and f/bthrow to use his grabs effectively and that if I don't have a CG, then I can't expect to consistently turn a grab into the opponent offstage. Listen, I've got TC's! They may not be 100% reliable or accurate, but with skill, practice, and a little bit of reading/prediction (or just noting your opponent's reaction patterns in certain situations and acting accordingly), they're an effective way of pushing the opponent around the stage. An MU can't just be based on what's guaranteed in a match; it also has to be based on what has a large chance of happening, especially if there's still a reliable way of setting up these things.

DDD's dthrow on a non-Wolf spacee might not lead into anything guaranteed, but it's a fact that he's still in a positional/situational advantage, and he can very well turn that dthrow into the opponent offstage with the right tech read. One more good read and it turns into a gimp or an even worse situation for the opponent offstage. This is why I say bold things like "grab on Fox often equals him offstage and now I have a decent shot at gimping him."

in order to gimp people, its not about how much you hit them offstage or even how hard you hit them offstage. Its more important WHERE you hit them offstage. the only way to get consistent gimps is with moves that have very low knockback angles. and very few moves have that. the only ones i can think of at the moment are MKs dair and shuttle loop, zeldas down smash and sheiks fair. And while Im sure that there are others, they arent so common so as to make low percent gimps a regular part of the game. If that happens to you it usually means you made a REALLY poor play or got read/mindgamed into something stupid like me baiting dodges into wolfs down air.

First off, I remember what you said about having experience in Top/High MUs and whatnot. I'm aware that you're a top Sonic and I'm not a Top DDD, but I still think I can see important things in these discussions.

"Its more important WHERE you hit them offstage." DDD has the ability to go really deep for his gimps, thanks to his multiple jumps, his incredible bair, and his decent recovery. Even if he screws up, he has a good shot at making it back onstage before or at the same time as his opponent. By going deep, he can constantly scare the opponent with the threat of his bair as they drift back. This is how I edgeguard John12346, and it works. I think it's how all DDD's should edgeguard Luke and a bunch of other MUs. If they hang really far back but can still recover around you, then bail, grab the ledge, and fair their onstage recovery.

"the only way to get consistent gimps is with moves that have very low knockback angles." I think DDD's bair qualifies for this, especially when staled a bit or at low/mid %'s. It's just weak enough that it can't really be DI'd to gain any effective height or ground.

"If that happens to you it usually means you made a REALLY poor play or got read/mindgamed into something stupid like me baiting dodges into wolfs down air." IMO, this is a bad mindset. I'm not insulting you, but I believe great players can have faulty mindsets. Everyone does; it's why we make mistakes when we play (well part of it, at least). Anyway, I think it is bad to underestimate the power of forcing preemptive defensive actions and performing reads/mindgames. When a DDD jumps out at you and then DJ turnarounds right in front of you, what are you going to do, especially if you don't have a move that handily beats out bair? Most people AD. This is where I catch 'em. It's a read/mindgame/bait, but it works. It works on Ike because he doesn't get much time offstage to defend himself. DDD could wait out the AD and bair, or, if I predict that they're anticipating the turnaround bair, I just keep facing the same way and fair. This is how I gimp John zipcode (lolz). It's the only way I can keep our games close, because I suck at dthrow > usmash.

It's still a guessing game on DDD's part, but by forcing the RPS process onto the opponent as many times as possible, he can eventually net himself a couple earlier kills through gimps than having to KO the opponent with an awkward utilt or a really stale dtilt/bair, and DDD still has the advantage in this guessing game, so it's profitable to play it out as many times as desired. Oh gosh, that entire paragraph was a run-on sentence.

However, Its very easy to rack damage and get additional hits on people when they are offstage. And DDD is great at that. but people are so adept at sending themselves exactly into the corner, that things like that very rarely kill before percents that kill moves on stage would kill anyway.

Agreed, and I could see how this would apply most of the time in the Snake MU, but in the MUs I was talking about, DDD can definitely secure a gimp. One bair almost always kills Ike offstage if it connects. Snake can be GR'd and Inhale released. Falco and Fox are much tougher, but if they can ever be forced into a position where they have to upB (ftilt at low %'s), then they can be baired into the stage for a stage spike.

 

[Seagull Joe]

In regards to vs , that is 's only unwinnable matchup. vs is -3...> though purely due to the fact that has more range and kill-power.

 

[bubbaking]

What? I thought Bowser's only unwinnable MU was DDD. Walking CG and then some kind of infinite at the ledge, right? I've never done the MU, but that's what I've heard...

 

[Seagull Joe]

vs is "winnable". It's just very bad (Maybe 10-90 or 1-99ish), but so are many of 's matchups. vs is literally 0-100.

 

[Scatz]

Not sure what you mean by this.....

Basically, you claiming that D3 has good gimping abilities on Yoshi cause he can grab us out of our DJ is preposterous. Just because a Yoshi believes that he's safe from being gimped by that scenario doesn't mean it's a character flaw (hence heroic failure). The only thing that's a character flaw to us in terms of recovery is when we've lost our DJ and forced to recover using upB.

 

[Delta-cod]

^ and even then, with proper DI we can always just recover high.

 

[Xubble]

Is Dedede'a bair strong enough to hit Yoshi out of his DJ? Cause I see the chaingrab putting Yoshi in a very bad position if it can.

 

[Z'zgashi]

vs is "winnable". It's just very bad (Maybe 10-90 or 1-99ish), but so are many of 's matchups. vs is literally 0-100.

No.... lol. ICs v Bowser and D3 v Bowser are both -4s, sitting around 90:10 and 95:5, but when you say 'but so are so many of Bowser's matchups' thats completely wrong. Sure, he has a few other -3s, but NO other MUs are anywhere NEAR as bad as ICs and D3 which are both practically unwinnable. Any other MU is definitely doable.

@Xubble: every move in the game is strong enough to break through Yoshis armor, it just depends on what percent Yoshi is at as moves break him out of armor depending on his current damage. The higher the base knockback, the earlier it hits Yoshi out, and Id guess it hits him out somewhere around 80-90, but could be wrong as thats literally just a guess lol.

 

[Seagull Joe]

No.... lol. ICs v Bowser and D3 v Bowser are both -4s, sitting around 90:10 and 95:5, but when you say 'but so are so many of Bowser's matchups' thats completely wrong. Sure, he has a few other -3s, but NO other MUs are anywhere NEAR as bad as ICs and D3 which are both practically unwinnable. Any other MU is definitely doable.

Are you nuts? -3/-2 are still hella bad. To say has many "good" matchups would mean you would need to re-define what a "good" matchup is. Losing 40-60 to a character being "good" does not make his matchups any better. It just makes one matchup less worse then the rest.

I'm agreeing with Vex the only whose opinion I even care for in that only is unwinnable. is winnable, but highly unlikely.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Hella bad, but doable.

And I dont consider -2s 'hella bad', just bad. And -1s are kinda/a little bad.

And I didnt once even use the word good, so why are you asking what I define good as lol

EDIT: and with your edit, why are you even arguing with me lol, I just agreed with everything you said except that D3 imo is unwinnable while in your opinion its 'winnable, but highly unlikely'.

 

[Seagull Joe]

In your response to when I said "It's just very bad, but so are many of 's matchups". I was just referring to 's matchups as a whole broad spectrum. Not trying to compare his worse 2 (Which are definitely /) with other bad ones. Sorry if my wording was confusing in my prior post.

Edit to your edit: I don't know what we're arguing now that you say that. I just think is more feasible to win, but that's still a piss poor matchup, which might as well be unwinnable. is just truely unwinnable.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Yeah, I read that as 'these 2 are very bad, and a lot of his other MUs are this bad too'. I definitely agree that Bowser still has tons of bad MUs, just those two are far and undeniably his worst.

EDIT to your edit on my edit: I misread you lol

 

[Seagull Joe]

Yeah, I read that as 'these 2 are very bad, and a lot of his other MUs are this bad too'. I definitely agree that Bowser still has tons of bad MUs, just those two are far and undeniably his worst.

Perfectly agreed .

Edit to your edit to my edit to your edit: Happens. I get wordy.

 

[bubbaking]

Get a room, you two... (-_-)

#BadJokes

 

[DeLux]

Just to clarify

Vinnie and I agree that Bowser vs. ICs is even
And I agree with Reflex in this case. Even my extreme case is something I look at in the context of it will only beat me if I let it. And since I'm competitive as all hell, I'm not going to let it win. End of story. Fear nothing, risk everything

 

[Dark.Pch]

What are you even talking about? -Your- example was a hand, which is why I used it in the first place. The point still stands that I feel it is a combination of various aspects that make a top player a top player, mind as well as body. There are plenty of people who are exceptionally good at giving advice, but are awful at playing. I wouldn't call that person a top player, because telling other people what the right thing to do is not a necessary skill for a top player. The only thing that matters is their ability to win when it counts.

That's what I said in the previous post, and you still draw the conclusion that I'm avoiding your post for the sake of looking good. I do not care what anyone in this thread thinks; I don't say things for the purpose of saving face. I am not in the community with the intention of making myself look good to a bunch of people I've never met.

I never suggested that you (or anyone else who has some roadblock, be it physical or mental) don't know what it takes to become a top player. Don't let anyone tell you that you can't improve yourself and reach previously-unachievable goals. I only said that having an issue that strongly interferes with one's ability to play means that they're not a top player, and that it takes some work to get around it in order to potentially become a top player, and until they manage to do that, it's in poor taste to say, "I have part of what it takes to be a top player," because we'll never know until they get there. If you have faith in yourself, that's great, but, outright saying that you have certain aspects of a top player sounds a lot like an excuse similar to, "If not for (insert excuse), I would be winning." Just play or don't play. Win or don't win. Winning is the hallmark of a top player, not quantifiable game knowledge.

Of course, I'm sure not everyone agrees with me, and that's fine. Still, you shouldn't pretend that I fit some weasel-y formula as if you're on some superior ground. For everyone's sake, get over yourself.

Again, you are dodging my point. Or you are seriously failing to realize the means of my example. And it's seriously easy to understand. The reason I responded to that false comment you made of me. I am not a top player but I have the mind of one. I used what I said to make that clear to you. But you going on another level with it. I'm sure others can get what I mean. The fact you keep dodging my point just tells me something else. And this is not the first time you done this ether. The point is not being a top player. It's the MIND,MIND,MIND,MIND!!!! OF ONE.

So there is nothing to get over.

 

[bubbaking]

Snake may be easy to hit offstage and build up tons of damage on, but I almost never see top level Snakes get gimped by any character that doesn't have a meteor smash. And even then it's fairly rare.

I already told you. I almost gimped Fatal in the first 15 seconds of our set. GR's count as gimps, as far as I know. If I had capitalized faster, I could have gimped him by footstooling as he C4'd himself, but I'm a bad player, so...

DDD can also Inhale release Snake (uh, I think that's called Happy Ending or something like that).

idk how you expect DDD to go far offstage and have a good shot at hitting anything that isn't a Smashville balloon. He's gonna take like 7 years to get there.

I told you this, too. In good edgeguarding situations, DDD has plenty of time to get into position. When Luigisama was giving me advice on the DDD:Luigi MU after our tourney set, he told me that DDD can just go out there and bair him 'cause his recovery's linear till he gets close enough to have options. Luigi becomes harder to gimp if you don't go far offstage after him. It's not like he can kill you if you miss either. You can probably use all your jumps offstage and then Super DDD Jump and still grab the ledge before Weegee. No need to go that extreme, though.

DDD definitely gets deep edgeguards against Lucario. There's very little he can do if he doesn't have a charged AS stored. Jump out and threaten/wall with bair. If he can still somehow recover, grab the ledge and fair his onstage landing or get up and bthrow him back off to reset the situation. The only times gimping Lucario becomes legitimately difficult is when he has more options due to walls and such.

I know I don't have top Ike experience, but I still don't see what Ike can do if DDD goes deep after him. QD is a guaranteed failure, so all DDD has to worry about are AD mixups below the stage line and Aether jank.

I mean, DDD IS slow in the air, but I don't understand why it's hard to believe that DDD can actually go deep for gimp attempts.....potentially successful gimp attempts, too.

Bubba, have you ever been aethered by ike? Cause you didnt bring that up at all... Thats why its easier for ike to gimp ddd. If you eat a single aether offstage, you die. You either get spiked on the follow up or you get charge up or forward smashed since you cant reach the ledge. Its really gross to watch.

It a big enough deal to alter the match up because it makes it so that ddd has to go obnoxiously high to avoid possibly dying everytime hes offstage.

Hmm, could you please expand upon this? Yes, I've been Aethered by him, but mostly only when I mess up while gimping/edgeguarding his recovery. Are you talking about another way of using Aether? Does Ike purposely Aether onstage/offstage and then grab the ledge when DDD's recovering? If that's the case, then I can see what you're saying, but it's still not that difficult for DDD to just recover high. IIRC, the only two moves that Ike has which can't really be DI'd very high are ftilt and bair. Everything else can just be DI'd high and then DDD can use his multiple jumps to go higher. Getting back down can be a problem, though...

To many people, I am not a top/high player. I have the mind of one. But with my mental problem I can't play in tournament matches. I freeze up hard. The only time i really play on point is in friendlies, when nothing is on the line. Tourny matches im nearly a free win. So dispite all that I know with Peach and her match ups, I rarely execute my brains of it in tournament matches.

So if people wanted to be real, no I am not a top/high level player. My results in tourny show it.

Well, the time when we played was a friendly and not a tourney match, so I got you there (no johns). But yeah, I see what you're saying. You still won anyway, even though your first lost stock was silly. That was some crazy shield pressure.

Edit: And boy did I hate the turnips...

 

[Z'zgashi]

lmao, bubba, Luigi is one of the slowest air speed characters in the game and has a very one dimensional recovery, OF COURSE YOU CAN GIMP HIM lmao. Saying you can gimp due to your experience gimping LUIGI of all characters is a TERRIBLE example of how to gimp an average character, ESPECIALLY Yoshi, a character with the fastest air speed in the game that recovers NOTHING like Luigi and has a recovery thats a million times safer loooool. And this is coming from someone who uses both Yoshi AND Luigi.

 

[da K.I.D.]

if the ike gets you offstage and you are within the height of aether, ike can go offstage and hit you with the aether (which is very easy due to your terrible air speed and large frame, combined with aether staying out forever) which will drag you down offstage, at which point you are below the stage, typically without enough jumps to get to the ledge. Ike cancels the aether by grabbing the stage and then prepares to destroy your up b with his move of choice.

its one of those really subtle things where you dont realize that ike has so much control over the situation until youre staring at his up or f smash knowing that theres no way to avoid it.

 

[bubbaking]

lmao, bubba, Luigi is one of the slowest air speed characters in the game and has a very one dimensional recovery, OF COURSE YOU CAN GIMP HIM lmao. Saying you can gimp due to your experience gimping LUIGI of all characters is a TERRIBLE example of how to gimp an average character, ESPECIALLY Yoshi, a character with the fastest air speed in the game that recovers NOTHING like Luigi and has a recovery thats a million times safer loooool. And this is coming from someone who uses both Yoshi AND Luigi.

Z'zgashi, do not jump to conclusions about what I am talking about. I wasn't referring to gimping Yoshi in the slightest. THIS is the post I was responding to:

You'd better have top level experience against every character that isn't one of the 5 mentioned here, cause idk how DDD is supposed to have a 'good shot' at gimping
Snake, Falco, Pikachu, Wario, ZSS, Peach, Pit, ROB, Sonic, DK, Ike, Yoshi, Luigi

And if you really think he has a 'good shot' at gimping these guys you're either hardcore theorycrafting alongside a terrible understanding of how these characters work, or you're just really scraping the bottom of the barrel and labelling it a 'good shot'

Notice the bolded portion. I was responding to his comments that DDD does not have a "good shot" at gimping Luigi and that I was "hardcore theorycrafting" for even suggesting it. I wasn't referring to Yoshi at all when I was explaining how DDD gimps Luigi.

Edit: And you just said now that DDD can definitely gimp Luigi (and you claim to main Luigi) when V115 said earlier that DDD can't. So clearly, one of you is wrong. The real question is who... :-|

 

[RaptorTEC]

Gashi, don't give him that man...

 

[infiniteV115]

I didn't say that he can't, I said that you would have to justify the claim "DDD has a good shot at gimping Luigi". Big difference.
idc about Luigisama's opinion, I don't even know who he is

 

[Delta-cod]

Luigisama's the man who told the story of the legendary Golden Yoshi King.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Again, you are dodging my point. Or you are seriously failing to realize the means of my example. And it's seriously easy to understand. The reason I responded to that false comment you made of me. I am not a top player but I have the mind of one. I used what I said to make that clear to you. But you going on another level with it. I'm sure others can get what I mean. The fact you keep dodging my point just tells me something else. And this is not the first time you done this ether. The point is not being a top player. It's the MIND,MIND,MIND,MIND!!!! OF ONE.

So there is nothing to get over.

I do not know what you're talking about in relation to my points, or why you feel the need to make multiple digs at me. Drop the passive-aggressive garbage if you want to be taken seriously or at least reasonably understood.

I explained how I disagreed with you. If you dislike it or disagree with it, that is your prerogative, but saying the equivalent of "there he goes again, doing that thing that he does" is awful for conversation. If you did not understand my point, then, trust me when I say that I addressed your point, and it is just going over your head. It isn't a big deal either way.

Actually, in the same spirit of dropping the conversation as I did when discussing the merits of Wario, Peach, and Marth, I'm not continuing this conversation. You can have your personal victory if you think I'm trying to hide from your bizarre sort-of-call-out. It's just not worth the trouble or the derailing of this thread.

...

Falco's still, like, the third best character in the game.

 

[RaptorTEC]

>Doesn't care about a good Luigi mains opinion on Luigi
>Is from Canada
>Would probably lose to LuigiSama

See we can both say stupid ****

 

[Luigisama]

>Doesn't care about a good Luigi mains opinion on Luigi
>Is from Canada
>Would probably lose to LuigiSama

See we can both say stupid ****

I like the probably because up b comes out of nowhere. But don't try to start. V115 is cool.

 

[Uncle]

I beat an ICs player as Bowser before.......................on Wi-Fi.

Matchup = Even

*co-signs with Delux and Vinnie*

 

[RaptorTEC]

@Sama Don't forget the random d taunt spike

 

[da K.I.D.]

lux and vinnie is trollin dumb hard.

 

[Xubble]

Where's ESAM? We need his input on ICies vs. Bowser.

/le namesearch

 

[KRDsonic]

I've beaten ICs as Bowser before offline. Even matchup IMO.

 

[Luigisama]

SGTW beat Raptor's ics with Bowser. it's a +2 in Bowser's favor because fsmash on nana and stay free

 

[Xubble]

boozers dare is super pwnz0rz on nana lolol stay free icies yolo


...Too much?

 

[RaptorTEC]

LOL. I also lose to Ganon as IC's so that must be a +4 for Ganon. If anyone loses to my IC's quit the game please.