Official BBR Tier List v7

[Dark.Pch]

Yeah, I misread. What? Don't give me that, man!

It seems I have created a new meme.

 

[bubbaking]

Dark.Pch, don't give us that, man!

 

[-LzR-]

@Bubbaking
Yeah that's what I mean, Dedede can just keep bairing so I guess it doesn't work. But when I play GW it seems more like hit or miss when I edgeguard Fox.

 

[bubbaking]

A lot of good stuff here.

Bubba, as far as ddd gimping many characters, fox in particular, I think the difference in ideas comes from the fact that we seem to disagree with the risk:reward ratio. you seem to think that every time ddd throws fox off stage than he gets a chance to end the foxs stock at no hazard or risk to his own. I dont know if you know Omega Tyrant (he's the ddd i played in winners finals this past weekend) but when I played him, he did a lot of the things you were saying, and utilizing most of the options you refer to to get me offstage and harass my stock. But the problem is that, if I got him to commit to a wrong option (since ddd is so slow in comparison to fox, the ddd is the one that has to commit to attempting to intercept one of foxs recovery options first) hes eating a 24% fair, and im now in the position where Im land camping him. or he mistimes a side b punish and eats 6% and now im land camping him because hes above me. Or even if I dont hit him with my recovery and he just guesses wrong and whiffs me, I get a free pass to the stage and now were back to neutral. And neutral game fox vs ddd is solidly in foxs favor due to lasers, mobility and speed of attacks. So the risk is a lot higher for the ddd than you give it credit for.

I think the risk:reward ratio is where we largely differ. Yeah, I can agree with pretty much everything you're saying here. Although, if I whiff and you miss with sideB, I'm pretty sure I can still grab you out of sideB lag... Also, I agree that the risk is very high, but I think the reward is quite high, too. As you said, at neutral, life is terrible for DDD. That's why, if I can possibly somehow kill Fox before he comes back, I'll go for that instead of letting Fox come back for free just to avoid a possible 6% punish (I know to avoid DJ fair mixups from Fox; also, SDI).

youre also putting too much stock in things that you dont really have all that much control over. Like, you really shouldnt be considering bad DI at all for this kind of thing because at the level that everyone is going to be determining matchups on, most people have near perfect DI. plus, unless youre hitting somebody with a wall of pain of bair airs ddd doesnt really have ANY moves that send at the knockback angle that you are refering to that would be required to get these low percent gimps.

Are you sure about this? I'm fairly certain that at low %'s, ftilt and dtilt end up with Fox at or below the ledge. Not saying that you'll get hit by those, especially at such low %'s, but it's worth noting 'cause of the position you'd be in afterwards.

and to answer youre question, moving from the bottom up in skill levels, the matchup starts far in foxs favor and gets closer and closer to even the better the two get. all things considered, its an even matchup because DDD does obnoxious amounts of damage at once, and then has a number of ways to kill fox with an up tilt at 90 (thats 6 back throws btw) and build damage by getting him offstage. Fox, in response wins a much higher number of small damage encounters, and can kill ddd at about 125 or so. they both have ways of killing each other very fast. But a lot of Foxs pressure and offense is really, for lack of a better word, scrubby. And you learn how to not take as much damage from him the better one gets at the game. (sdi does a number on that character.

Alright, thanks for the info! It's pretty much what I figured, except I didn't know that Fox actually killed DDD as low as at 125 (), and I thought Fox's offense was a bit better because he had legit true combos.

Edit: I mean, everyone has legit true combos (even DDD, lolz), but I thought Fox had ones that reeaaally racked up damage.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i mean, fox can do SH fair to Fh fair to double jump fair which is anywhere from 40 to 70 damage, and he can do dair (22%?) to 2-4 uptilts (9-10% per) but like i said, getting better at the game and learning to SDI really does a number on what he can feasibly get away with. Which is why I find a lot of the stuff I personally do to people, really scrubby.

But once you do that, foxs learn this and respond by just getting better at camping and keep away with free laser damage and spacing back airs. which isnt as good as dair, fair and up tilt combo damage. but it does make up for it a fair amount

 

[fox67890]

Fox doesn't die from at 90% vs D3's uptilt...even without Di or momentum cancel :\
He lives a bit longer than most other lightweights because his vertical momentum cancel ability is great due to his fast falling conditions.

The only reason D3 lives a bit longer is because of his heaviness. Fox upsmash has more knockback than Snake's and D3's uptilt. So while Fox's upsmash is stronger, D3 is more heavy; while D3's uptilt is weaker, Fox is more lighter. D3 doesn't really even outlive Fox by that much (he does outlive him, definitely, but compared to other D3 MUs, he dies A LOT earlier).

From my experience, D3 doesn't edge-guard Fox well either. He has to make a commitment like most other characters to guess what he does. If Fox throws him off even once with shine stalling, it's a free illusion to the stage or ledge. The only characters that really have a shot at edguaring Fox are characters with really good aerial mobility or characters that have reliable moves that are multihit offstage.

 

[-LzR-]

Fox really suffers from great SDI. Dair and fair lose a lot of their power

 

[DMG]

Dair is the saddest move due to SDI lol.

 

[Juushichi]

sometimes, you can even SDI out of utilt and punish him with it. As mario, I've gotten, dair/nair and occasionally uair out before being hit again.

also, though it has nothing to do with much of anything... you can (as mario) bair fox out of his uair if he tries to chase you up there. I kinda like playing vs Fox because it's almost really obvious RPS in a lot of situations. Like, more than any other character because both characters have short range and want to do much of the same thing. Mario still loses, of course.

 

[bubbaking]

@Bubbaking
Yeah that's what I mean, Dedede can just keep bairing so I guess it doesn't work. But when I play GW it seems more like hit or miss when I edgeguard Fox.

You know, this is mostly straight up theorycrafting right now, but I was thinking of potential edgeguards with G&W. I've completely screwed up certain recoveries (usually by accident) by upBing right next to them to fling them up with G&W. I've killed Nesses and a few other chars this way, but I think I can only recall one time when I actually did it on purpose. But assuming one can do this on demand, let's look at the scenario where Fox tries to fake out G&W's DJ bair/fair/nair by dropping back and then upBing like you suggested:

Instead of heading straight for the ledge or stage with upB because you missed up your DJ edgeguard attempt, drift over to Fox and upB next to him. It (probably) won't kill him, but you could very easily hit him while he was falling in helpless. I could see an almost identical situation happening with uair. All of this stuff would naturally apply to Falco as well, but there's a smaller chance that Falco would ever upB like that.

Along very similar lines, what happens when G&W uairs under Fox's sideB? Does Fox get flung up? If so, this would, again, open up an avenue for punishing Fox (and Falco) while he was falling in helpless.

Again, most of this is theorycrafting, but I definitely have killed people by upBing next to them before, especially Nesses who had to recover low.

Fox doesn't die from at 90% vs D3's uptilt...even without Di or momentum cancel :\
He lives a bit longer than most other lightweights because his vertical momentum cancel ability is great due to his fast falling conditions.

The only reason D3 lives a bit longer is because of his heaviness. Fox upsmash has more knockback than Snake's and D3's uptilt. So while Fox's upsmash is stronger, D3 is more heavy; while D3's uptilt is weaker, Fox is more lighter. D3 doesn't really even outlive Fox by that much (he does outlive him, definitely, but compared to other D3 MUs, he dies A LOT earlier).

From my experience, D3 doesn't edge-guard Fox well either. He has to make a commitment like most other characters to guess what he does. If Fox throws him off even once with shine stalling, it's a free illusion to the stage or ledge. The only characters that really have a shot at edguaring Fox are characters with really good aerial mobility or characters that have reliable moves that are multihit offstage.

Don't forget that DDD is also a fast faller in addition to being heavy. In fact, I believe he is the fastest faller while also being the 4th heaviest character, so even though Fox's usmash is stronger than DDD's utilt, DDD will still be living quite a bit longer than Fox. DDD is both heavier AND he falls faster. I could definitely believe DDD's utilt killing Fox somewhere around 90-105%

 

[-LzR-]

You know, this is mostly straight up theorycrafting right now, but I was thinking of potential edgeguards with G&W. I've completely screwed up certain recoveries (usually by accident) by upBing right next to them to fling them up with G&W. I've killed Nesses and a few other chars this way, but I think I can only recall one time when I actually did it on purpose. But assuming one can do this on demand, let's look at the scenario where Fox tries to fake out G&W's DJ bair/fair/nair by dropping back and then upBing like you suggested:

Instead of heading straight for the ledge or stage with upB because you missed up your DJ edgeguard attempt, drift over to Fox and upB next to him. It (probably) won't kill him, but you could very easily hit him while he was falling in helpless. I could see an almost identical situation happening with uair. All of this stuff would naturally apply to Falco as well, but there's a smaller chance that Falco would ever upB like that.

Along very similar lines, what happens when G&W uairs under Fox's sideB? Does Fox get flung up? If so, this would, again, open up an avenue for punishing Fox (and Falco) while he was falling in helpless.

Again, most of this is theorycrafting, but I definitely have killed people by upBing next to them before, especially Nesses who had to recover low.

Most of that is true. Though I doubt Fox is just gonna let me get next to him just like that. He could use his DJ fair or something or just aggressively challenge me. Though I think DJ fair could be Uair'd for the kill
Oh and spacies fall really really fast in helpless so it's hard to get any solid punishes like that. Maybe a fair or something, but definitely not a charged smash. If you uair under their sideB they will be sent up a bit, but not too much, they mostly recover safely because you can't reach them in time. And yes it's legit to upB a Ness or Lucas when they do their upB, if you are lucky they will hit themselves downward with their own thunder.

 

[bubbaking]

Well I was talking strictly in the sense of the situation you stated, that Fox had pulled back to avoid a DJ edgeguard from G&W and was now upBing. Can't G&W catch them falling with fsmash or dsmash? For the Nesses, they often end up falling to their death after their PKT's miss them entirely and hit something else. XD

 

[-LzR-]

If you upair their upB/sideB from offstage you shouldn't be able to do much. If you upB they are now below you. So I would say no.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Eh, Fox's dair loses some damage if you're good at SDi but it's still usually pretty safe.

 

[-LzR-]

And unless you SDI well he still has some combos off of it.

 

[Youngster Joey]

i usually predict his dair. shield then grab. never really have a solution for when i get hit by it tho.

 

[da K.I.D.]

san SDI out of it so I didnt get follow ups, and then when I tried something, I got jabbed out of shield for 30%.. =(

 

[ShadowLink84]

san SDI out of it so I didnt get follow ups, and then when I tried something, I got jabbed out of shield for 30%.. =(

Nair is a bit better actually.

 

[Ishiey]

On SDIing Fox's dair, which way do people SDI it? Away from Fox so you're out of dsmash/grab range if you're on the ground and up > jump if you're in the air?

 

[Dark.Pch]

I usually SDI away on Fox grounded and down/away if I get hit in the air. It leads to wiff attacks or powershields.

 

[da K.I.D.]

you DI it away from where the fox is drifting.

 

[bubbaking]

So if he's drifting right while dairing, you SDI it left?

 

[da K.I.D.]

yes .

 

[NickRiddle]

Wait, that isnt obvious?

 

[bubbaking]

yes .

I had to quote your post, just to see how you did that.

 

[Z'zgashi]

^ You just put a lot of spaces instead of one.

You can also just add a [B ] -lots of space- [/B] in the middle of at least 2 characters and it'll dodge the character limit.

So basically if you type:

N[B ] -press spacebar 8 or more times here- [/B]o

^ that counts as a whole post and will look like this:

N o

 

[bubbaking]

I know. I figured it out from quoting it. Also, you don't necessarily need or any other modifier. You just need a lot of spaces in between two characters.

Edit: Oh nvm, you said that.

 

[Ishiey]

you DI it away from where the fox is drifting.

Does it move you out of utilt range? Whenever I try it I still end up getting hit :/

 

[Z'zgashi]

I know. I figured it out from quoting it. Also, you don't necessarily need or any other modifier. You just need a lot of spaces in between two characters.

Edit: Oh nvm, you said that.

yu p

 

[Grim Tuesday]

coo l

 

[| Big D |]

nea t

 

[bubbaking]

wo w

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Spam is not cool.

 

[RaptorTEC]

Red Ryu, don't give them that man....

 

[Youngster Joey]

can i post a spam too?

 

[Sunnysunny]

N o

 

[Luco]

Well, I guess, until I remembered that being the best for a non-existent char simply meant that I made it out of pools at some random regional.

I think being the best for a non-existent char makes that char slightly more existent. Maybe. I hope.

But sure, getting out of pools at least means you were in the bracket somewhere hehe :D

What? Random spammy page.... >_>

 

[da K.I.D.]

It took me like 3 years to figure out lol

 

[bubbaking]

The short post thing?

 

[da K.I.D.]

yes.

but thats why you dont go around telling everyone. too easy to misuse...