Official BBR Tier List v7

[Delta-cod]

I think having a super extensive knowledge of frame data is overrated.

 

[Luco]

I think having a super extensive knowledge of frame data is overrated.

It also allows you to theorycraft much better.

Well I agree it's probably over-rated, for certainly there are match-ups that seem to be hideous on paper but in reality are actually pretty ok (ness-MK match-up as an example).

But it's useful, no doubt.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I think I once read "my jump is frame 8 and MK's F´tilt is frame 4, therefore, MK ***** my character", it was all levels of dumb.
So yeah, frame data is mostly for awareness/safety/buffering purposes and nothing ore.

 

[bubbaking]

It also gives you a way to compare things between characters, like the speed of jabs and such.

It also allows you to theorycraft much better.

Because theorycrafting is all that matters.

I think having a super extensive knowledge of frame data is overrated.

Tell that to M2K...

 

[Luco]

I must say though, I find myself very much respecting those that have knowledge of frame data. =)

 

[Delta-cod]

It also gives you a way to compare things between characters, like the speed of jabs and such.

In most cases, the relative speeds of characters' movesets is pretty obvious.

I think once you get down to really small frame differences, that it really stops mattering because it comes down to whoever acts first really.

For example, Yoshi's jab is 1 frame slower than Falco's (IIRC). This doesn't really make too much of a difference because a direct confrontation of our jab is unlikely to happen. It's not like both characters just sit at neutral and then decide to jab each other at exactly the same frame.

 

[infiniteV115]

I feel frame data is mostly useful for what you can/can't punish with in certain situations (certain moves on shield/on hit/grab release stuff, etc)

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Tell that to M2K...

M2K isn't some frame-perfect robot like everyone makes him out to be (even jokingly). His true defining characteristic is that he is familiar with almost every situation and knows the perfect thing to do, which is why his punishes are so good.

I think having a super extensive knowledge of frame data is overrated.

It would be, but everyone who matters realizes it's unimportance from what I've seen

EDIT: Man, I am so negative. I'm not even in a bad mood, sorry fellas.

 

[Delta-cod]

It would be, but everyone who matters realizes it's unimportance from what I've seen

I guess so. Maybe my perception is kinda messed up because I see people throw around frame data so much around here.

Also Socks I see you lurking.

 

[Luco]

It would be, but everyone who matters realizes it's unimportance from what I've seen

EDIT: Man, I am so negative. I'm not even in a bad mood, sorry fellas.

Oh nono I know what you mean, don't worry about being negative! I think it's important to a point... and then it becomes far less useful, because it's about how the top players do in each match-up, how some work better on paper than in reality, like I said, etc... =)

 

[ぱみゅ]

For example, Yoshi's jab is 1 frame slower than Falco's (IIRC). This doesn't really make too much of a difference because a direct confrontation of our jab is unlikely to happen. It's not like both characters just sit at neutral and then decide to jab each other at exactly the same frame.

I remember the early days of Brawl, where I mained peach and my firend mained Falco, and when we jabbed at neutral position and the jabs clashed, we would clash them over and over until the simultaneous clashes would put us too far from each other....
Then, I couldn't do that with Toon Link when I switched and he would beat me if I do that, so I pretty much never tried it again.
Funny thing is, when I looked for videos here and there, I saw other players doing the exact same multi-clash thing.

Oh, the nostalgia....

 

[da K.I.D.]

Frame data is not supposed to be used mid match.

People learn the frame data of their characters so that they can relate it to situations that they come across before they have to play and then they can translate into knowledge of what moves to do in what situations.

for example (I dont know ZSS, but sonic will be accurate) if ZSSs down smash is minus 9 frames on shield. and I know that unshielding is 7 frames and my fastest attack is jab at 3 frames, i can use that information to come to the conclusion that I cant punish ZSSs down smash and that my best option is roll away from her because any counter attack I attempt can get stuffed by her frame 1 jab. Now when Im actually playing the game, Im not thinking about the frame data, im just working under the knowledge that I can punish ZSSs down smash if I shield it.

 

[Luco]

Frame data is not supposed to be used mid match.

People learn the frame data of their characters so that they can relate it to situations that they come across before they have to play and then they can translate into knowledge of what moves to do in what situations.

for example (I dont know ZSS, but sonic will be accurate) if ZSSs down smash is minus 9 frames on shield. and I know that unshielding is 7 frames and my fastest attack is jab at 3 frames, i can use that information to come to the conclusion that I cant punish ZSSs down smash and that my best option is roll away from her because any counter attack I attempt can get stuffed by her frame 1 jab. Now when Im actually playing the game, Im not thinking about the frame data, im just working under the knowledge that I can punish ZSSs down smash if I shield it.

Bubbaking has it. I don't think in frame data in a real match. What I do is learn something with frame data, practice it and use the muscle memory from that to help me in a match. That's how I learnt the ICs CG, rather than using when they hit the ground or whatever indicator they give you. It takes time but it works. =)

Exactly. =)

 

[-LzR-]

Frame data is not supposed to be used mid match.

People learn the frame data of their characters so that they can relate it to situations that they come across before they have to play and then they can translate into knowledge of what moves to do in what situations.

for example (I dont know ZSS, but sonic will be accurate) if ZSSs down smash is minus 9 frames on shield. and I know that unshielding is 7 frames and my fastest attack is jab at 3 frames, i can use that information to come to the conclusion that I cant punish ZSSs down smash and that my best option is roll away from her because any counter attack I attempt can get stuffed by her frame 1 jab. Now when Im actually playing the game, Im not thinking about the frame data, im just working under the knowledge that I can punish ZSSs down smash if I shield it.

This. I consider learning framedata to be a really easy way to figure out your options without trying out things a million times. The frames don't lie, there are only human mistakes which you can also use the framedata for. Not that it's going to make you a great player, but I guess it can't hurt you either?

 

[Orion*]

In short

frame data increases awareness, and enhances your perspective. This can be achieved many ways, most importantly experience. But essentially the more aware you are about whats happening, the more you can do about it. If you only rely on experience, you don't have hard facts that what you're doing is actually going to work in the long term, or is actually safe (or not gimmicky), likewise only knowing frame data is limiting as well.

 

[ShadowLink84]

*some stuff about frame data here*

 

[DMG]

Did you know MK's Uair is gay?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It's easier to experiment with what works and what doesn't when you know if something is even possible by looking at the frame data. It's a nice point of reference for a lot of things.

 

[Juushichi]

Wh... What is this thread?

People agreeing and being... reasonable.

No... It's impossible!

 

[da K.I.D.]

IMPOSSIBRU!!

lol

 

[RaptorTEC]

I think having a super extensive knowledge of frame data is overrated.

This.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Did you know MK's Uair is gay?

Best move in the game.

 

[bubbaking]

Don't give us that, man...

 

[infiniteV115]

ZSS' dsmash is -4 on shield, 0 when charged
I know goggles was just throwing it out as an example, I just think it's good to know the actual numbers cause if you do, you know that
-Nobody can shieldgrab it (at least, not a guaranteed one)
-I don't think anybody has a grounded upB with a hitbox comes out in 3 frames or less...so you can't upB OoS
-You can't shield drop-->anything cause shield drop is 7 frames

Best hope is to predict what she does AFTERWARDS and punish. eg Dsmash --> jab1 cause jab1 comes out on frame 1, so it'll beat out a frame 6 shieldgrab by 1 frame. If you shield the jab1 however, ZSS is at a disadvantage.
That or you can attempt PS --> move that comes out in 6 frames or less, but that's risky.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Does anybody know what the powershield window is in this game? I feel like its 3 frames to melees 1. but I wasnt never told for sure.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

The best way to deal with dsmash is to not shield it, but jump over and hit her, but that requires a hard read, otherwise you're in a pretty bad position.

 

[bubbaking]

In most cases, the relative speeds of characters' movesets is pretty obvious.

I think once you get down to really small frame differences, that it really stops mattering because it comes down to whoever acts first really.

For example, Yoshi's jab is 1 frame slower than Falco's (IIRC). This doesn't really make too much of a difference because a direct confrontation of our jab is unlikely to happen. It's not like both characters just sit at neutral and then decide to jab each other at exactly the same frame.

Well, until you end up in situations that reset both characters to a near 0-frame advantage right next to each other, like a pummel release or a clash.

M2K isn't some frame-perfect robot like everyone makes him out to be (even jokingly). His true defining characteristic is that he is familiar with almost every situation and knows the perfect thing to do, which is why his punishes are so good.

True, but he wrote the book on frame data and hitbox research. You've seen his Journal/Encyclopedia of studies for Melee, right? The man's work is pretty much what most of us base a lot of our knowledge on. For instance, I still can't find a better rankings list of grab ranges than what M2K initially wrote when testing them. I know he isn't frame perfect, but he definitely has a "super extensive knowledge of frame data" and in his case, it probably isn't "overrated". I mean, how else do you think it was discovered that 'perfect MK planking' is, well, perfect?

I guess so. Maybe my perception is kinda messed up because I see people throw around frame data so much around here.

What else do you want us to do when theorycrafting on SWF?

for example (I dont know ZSS, but sonic will be accurate) if ZSSs down smash is minus 9 frames on shield. and I know that unshielding is 7 frames and my fastest attack is jab at 3 frames, i can use that information to come to the conclusion that I cant punish ZSSs down smash and that my best option is roll away from her because any counter attack I attempt can get stuffed by her frame 1 jab. Now when Im actually playing the game, Im not thinking about the frame data, im just working under the knowledge that I can punish ZSSs down smash if I shield it.

I know you said that you don't know ZSS' data, but I believe her dsmash is 0 on block or something. It's why she can punish any dumb action OoS with another dsmash, IIRC. Maybe I'm remembering wrong...

Edit: Ninja'd

 

[infiniteV115]

An OoS option shouldn't be getting punished by another dsmash, cause the dsmash hitbox comes out on frame 21...
I don't know why anyone would choose an OoS option that takes more than 21 frames lmao

 

[Vinnie]

-I don't think anybody has a grounded upB with a hitbox comes out in 3 frames or less...so you can't upB OoS

I was going to say Marth's up B, but his invincibility starts on frame 1 and hitbox frame 5 iirc so it doesn't work v.v

**** zss' dsmash! Her hurtbox is smaller in the beginning frames of it too (since she pulls her arm & stun gun backwards), so it's not that good to try to beat it out before it comes out, either.

MK's uair is still better though ^^

 

[infiniteV115]

I didn't know that about her hurtboxes, but if that's the case it probably doesn't make a difference because she steps forward when doing her dsmash

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ZSS dsmash is good at what it does because it doesn't have much competition but it isn't anywhere near being a candidate for "best move in the game."

I wouldn't even put it in top 10.

 

[bubbaking]

ZSS' dsmash is -4 on shield, 0 when charged
I know goggles was just throwing it out as an example, I just think it's good to know the actual numbers cause if you do, you know that
-Nobody can shieldgrab it (at least, not a guaranteed one)
-I don't think anybody has a grounded upB with a hitbox comes out in 3 frames or less...so you can't upB OoS
-You can't shield drop-->anything cause shield drop is 7 frames

What about those upB's with invincibility that transfers seamlessly into the move's hitboxes? Off the top of my head, a few chars who come to mind are Samus, Bowser, Pit, Mario, and Marth. All of those chars get extremely early invincibility on their upB's that either lasts until or overlaps with the moves' hitboxes (windbox in Pit's case).

Edit: Partially ninja'd by Vinnie...

Edit 2: Actually, not really.

Does anybody know what the powershield window is in this game? I feel like its 3 frames to melees 1. but I wasnt never told for sure.

It feels easier than that, tbh. Also, I'm fairly certain that Melee has a larger-than-1-frame window. Not only that, I believe Melee actually has two kinds of PS's, each with its own specific window of execution.

 

[Luigi player]

Doesnt marios upb have a hitbox on frame 3?

Mario for zss counter!

 

[bubbaking]

Mario's SJP hits on frame 3 and is also invincible from frames 3-6. See? Frame data knowledge being put to good use to see exactly which UpB's can punish ZSS' dsmash OoS.

I was going to say Marth's up B, but his invincibility starts on frame 1 and hitbox frame 5 iirc so it doesn't work v.v

Marth's upB does work because the invincibility lasts through frame 5, which is exactly when the hitbox comes out. It's why Marth can do janky things, like upBing straight out of the middle of Ike's Aether.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

Doesnt marios upb have a hitbox on frame 3?

Mario for zss counter!

Yes and is also invincible on frames 3-6.

edit: **** ninja'd. owell

 

[da K.I.D.]

Marth's upB does work because the invincibility lasts through frame 5, which is exactly when the hitbox comes out. It's why Marth can do janky things, like upBing straight out of the middle of Ike's Aether.

In the case of punishing paralyser down smash out of shield, it doesnt matter when he is invincible, since the move is minus 4 and the hitbox comes out on frame 5. it means she can jsut shield and punish it afterwards.

 

[infiniteV115]

Also since you can't upB directly OoS, you have to either shield drop (7 frames, and nobody should ever do this lawl) --> upB or do a JC upB OoS (so you have to add at LEAST 1 frame of jumpsquat)

So Mario's JCupB OoS would work against ZSS' uncharged dsmash on shield...I think it's the only move though XD

 

[Z'zgashi]

Mario for ZSS hard counter.

 

[bubbaking]

Umm, you can upB directly OoS. It's a JC upB. You can jump OoS without dropping it, so you can upB OoS too. For the record, this is easiest if you have tap jump ON (I always have it set to that) but you can do it with it OFF, too; it's just harder that way.

Edit: Oh, you said that. Didn't read the whole post...

 

[Z'zgashi]

I have Tap Jump off and its still super easy, dont know why everyone thinks its so hard lol. You just press jump then, while holding up, roll your thumb from the jump button to special (I have my specials set to X, so I just go Y > X).