Official BBR Tier List v7

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

There's a lot of DP in this thread.

My people need me.

 

[C.J.]

Dragon punches just mean invincible on startup AFAIK

Not sure if SL counts since it isn't invincible frame 1



Edit: ninja'd

 

[bubbaking]

I guess they're brawl double-I mean-dragon punches...

Edit: Btw, if Shuttle Loop doesn't count, then SJP shouldn't count either. It doesn't get invincibility until frame 3, IIRC.

 

[da K.I.D.]

have you seen how many moves get stuffed out by grounded shuttle loop?

 

[bubbaking]

Frame 5 invincibility is still pretty good.

Edit: It's frame 5, right?

 

[Myollnir]

5-8, that's right.

 

[Dark.Pch]

have you seen how many moves get stuffed out by grounded shuttle loop?

Thats because most attacks can not catch meta within that 4 frame window he is open. really on block. So if an attack hits meta knight, it will most likely hit him when he is invincible.

On shield you need to have at least -1 on block and have alteast a 3 frame jab.

- attack on shield is -1 on block. Meaning your opponent can move one frame before you.

- Meta knight is invincible on frame 5. But since you can't move for 1 frame, its would be invincible in 4 frames before you can do anything.

- Jab meta and you will hit him out of his up-B. You caught that 4 frame window he was open with a 3 frame jab.

If you bair meta knight on shield. Your attack needs to be atleast 0 on block. Which means you can both move at the same time. after a bair on shield you need to buffer a turn around jab. to turn around and cancel the animation to do w/e you want next takes 1 frame.

turn around= 1 frame

jab= 3 frames.

Total frames of jab after bair on shield= 4.

meta won't be invincible till frame 5. And you closed that window with your jab that would hit on frame 4.


Sadly, Meta knight can get away with this crap on alot of characters cause not many characters have those numbers on block. I think ZSS can space a bair on meta knight shield and turn around jab him to snuff him out of his up-B. I don't know much of her frame data to say for sure.

Peach can do it though Her fair and bair can be made to 0 on block. And I snuff up-B happy metas all the time with this. If he blocks a fair/bair, meta knight can not up-B me. if he does, its cause I messed up the timing with fair/bair. And he was just mashing buttons hoping the up-B would hit.

 

[bubbaking]

Well, this would require you to guess/predict that MK is going to upB OoS, since you can't really react to anything. You don't even have a frame to do that. If MK reads this, he could just wait for the jab and shieldgrab (or upB OoS ).

 

[Seagull Joe]

If Mk is sitting in shield and approached with a Bair then is about to get punished from GSL. Not the other way around.

GSL is godlike.

 

[infiniteV115]

GSL's invincibility comes out on frame 5, but since it's done OoS you have to add 1 frame of jumpsquat so the invincibility comes out in 6 frames total.

I'm not sure whether ZSS' bair (when autocancelled perfectly) is -5 or -6 on shield (I've been told -6 multiple times but DeLux told me he was testing it and it was -5) but it doesn't matter because even if we assume it's -5, it would take 6 frames for the jab to come out.

So yeah MK can just GSL a bair on shield and if he's frame perfect (not hard since I'm pretty sure you can just buffer it out of shield hitlag/hitstun) he has nothing to worry about.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Well, this would require you to guess/predict that MK is going to upB OoS, since you can't really react to anything. You don't even have a frame to do that. If MK reads this, he could just wait for the jab and shieldgrab (or upB OoS ).

That can be said about anything in this game. Any situation. This this really holds no point. Cause I could Fair, jab, shield, then wait for up-B then upair him. see? how that works, and this can go on and on and on. So again, not the point.

If Mk is sitting in shield and approached with a Bair then is about to get punished from GSL. Not the other way around.

GSL is godlike.

I rather see what her frame data is like before I take your word for it.

 

[Zankoku]

Usually the Meta Knights who are familiar with the Peach matchup Shuttle Loop to cut through the fair, not wait until it connects with their shield. Meta Knights who shield Peach's aerials are infinitely easier to open up and I don't really count them because they're doing it way wrong.

 

[Dark.Pch]

GSL's invincibility comes out on frame 5, but since it's done OoS you have to add 1 frame of jumpsquat so the invincibility comes out in 6 frames total.

I'm not sure whether ZSS' bair (when autocancelled perfectly) is -5 or -6 on shield (I've been told -6 multiple times but DeLux told me he was testing it and it was -5) but it doesn't matter because even if we assume it's -5, it would take 6 frames for the jab to come out.

So yeah MK can just GSL a bair on shield and if he's frame perfect (not hard since I'm pretty sure you can just buffer it out of shield hitlag/hitstun) he has nothing to worry about.

The squat is counted towards his up-B?

Usually the Meta Knights who are familiar with the Peach matchup Shuttle Loop to cut through the fair, not wait until it connects with their shield. Meta Knights who shield Peach's aerials are infinitely easier to open up and I don't really count them because they're doing it way wrong.

I don't fair meta as an approach. I fair him within block strings, when I am forcing him to block and make educated reads/guesses.

 

[Seagull Joe]

have you seen how many moves get stuffed out by grounded shuttle loop?

Every move in the game at one point or another.

Usually the Meta Knights who are familiar with the Peach matchup Shuttle Loop to cut through the fair, not wait until it connects with their shield. Meta Knights who shield Peach's aerials are infinitely easier to open up and I don't really count them because they're doing it way wrong.

That's more or less what I mean except with attempting to Sh Bair a grounded shielding . would more then likely GSL when Sh towards because as far as I know he is too short for her to hit if she did a Sh Bair instead of having to jump first and fast fall Sh Bair/falling Bair to reach him. I see the same thing happen a lot as a person who uses a character with a quick aerial Bair.

Frames isn't important if you can't reach quick enough to use the move since GSL's range is far greater then most moves and he's sometimes too short to hit if you don't fastfall a move.

 

[infiniteV115]

The squat is counted towards his up-B?

Yes. For every JC usmash/JC upB, you have to add at least 1 frame of jumpsquat.
It's a jump cancel, therefore the jump was GOING to occur but instead it was cancelled during jumpsquat with an usmash/upB.

Wouldn't really be a JC usmash/upB if the jumpsquat never started in the first place, now would it? XD

I mean it's not like you can usmash/upB directly OoS, you have to either drop shield (and suffer through 7 frames of shield drop lag, or 17 if you're Yoshi) or do a JC one (which is faster)

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Dark.Pch has a Yugi avatar and Seagull has a Joey avatar

 

[infiniteV115]

And then we have weird pokemon avatars.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

My Pokemon avatar isn't weird, it's fairly normal.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Yes. For every JC usmash/JC upB, you have to add at least 1 frame of jumpsquat.
It's a jump cancel, therefore the jump was GOING to occur but instead it was cancelled during jumpsquat with an usmash/upB.

Wouldn't really be a JC usmash/upB if the jumpsquat never started in the first place, now would it? XD

I mean it's not like you can usmash/upB directly OoS, you have to either drop shield (and suffer through 7 frames of shield drop lag, or 17 if you're Yoshi) or do a JC one (which is faster)

Good to know, thanks.

Dark.Pch has a Yugi avatar and Seagull has a Joey avatar

He is either stating we are good friends or I am better/smarter then him at this game. I'm pretty sure it is not the first choice.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

He is either stating we are good friends or I am better/smarter then him at this game. I'm pretty sure it is not the first choice.

*than .

 

[infiniteV115]

My Pokemon avatar isn't weird, it's fairly normal.

I meant that it's an avatar of a weird pokemon (green Mewtwo, fat Pikachu)

 

[bubbaking]

And then there's the MIGHTY Bison!

#BecauseWeAllKnowItWasJustATuesday

 

[Pikabunz]

Yes. For every JC usmash/JC upB, you have to add at least 1 frame of jumpsquat.
It's a jump cancel, therefore the jump was GOING to occur but instead it was cancelled during jumpsquat with an usmash/upB.

Wouldn't really be a JC usmash/upB if the jumpsquat never started in the first place, now would it? XD

I mean it's not like you can usmash/upB directly OoS, you have to either drop shield (and suffer through 7 frames of shield drop lag, or 17 if you're Yoshi) or do a JC one (which is faster)

You can UpB/UpSmash OoS without jumpsquat frames.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I meant that it's an avatar of a weird pokemon (green Mewtwo, fat Pikachu)

SHINY Mewtwo tyvm.

 

[Life]

Your avatars do not contain enough fruit. (Are pumpkins fruit? I would think so but I'm not certain.)

 

[Zankoku]

I don't fair meta as an approach. I fair him within block strings, when I am forcing him to block and make educated reads/guesses.

I've very rarely seen situations where any character is necessarily forced to block against anyone... after all, this isn't a normal 2D fighter, where you can block, jump, or try an attack. This is Smash, where you can block, jump, try an attack, roll forward, roll away, or spotdodge. Additionally, this is Brawl, where you can usually pick an option other than "keep blocking" right after blocking one attack.

With all that in mind, I don't really see this "within block strings" situation you're producing involving an attack that roughly has the startup of a 2D fighter character's standing overhead, in Brawl.

 

[Dark.Pch]

When I pressure someone WELL on block I expect an evasion tactic. Wether rolling or side stepping. Now based on how I see they would try to evade I make educated guess of how to pressure, when to end my pressure strings and punish their evasions. Now if they are respecting me and I see them on block, I'll end pressure early and grab (all this falls in the line of adapting and being observant BTW)

Now going on about punishing and evasion tactic:

Rolling foward: chase roll and dash attack/shory hop dair/F-B ( I dont do this alot cause I can send enemy flying too fair and give up pressure that can lead to more damage before I send them flying) Ground fairs work as well if you are fast enough. Even if They Block or side step it, its a frame trap. You get free pressure from your jab follow up and go for a jab mixup.

Rolling back: Jump back to short hop dair. Float back to Bair, run behind and grab. Reversal F-B. Jump back to a Zdrop and follow up with a footstool dair combo. or turnip footstool lock from this.

Side step: Jab cancel to snipe out of it and go for jab mixup/pressure. Short hop dair in place. Ground float nair in place. (not one character in this game can air dodge or spot dodge Peach nair) if you react fast enough, grab. Zdrop and follow up from there.

Now look at all this. These are ways to get damage. And also best thing of all, I dont have to burn my kill options. I know when I do solid pressure, I am for a fact gonna force an evasion. Really when the shield gets small in fear of shield poking. I have control of the match right now. Now based of what I see, its up to me to make the best judgements and educated guesses to bait once of these three evasions and punish how I see fit. Then when the time comes, finish them off.

** -options to evade are limited when in a corner. Can't roll back.


Mix ups within tight pressure Peach has.

 

[Zankoku]

Where are you STARTING the pressure, though? These are all ways to respond once you're already in the other guy's face, somehow forcing him to block.... what?

 

[Dark.Pch]

For one thing. If I am approaching someone, I can force a block/evasion.

 

[infiniteV115]

You can UpB/UpSmash OoS without jumpsquat frames.

Wait what? Really?
How can the game measure it as a JC usmash if the jump hasn't started (ie the jumpsquat frames haven't started)? By inputting jump + usmash/upB on the same frame?

 

[Zankoku]

For one thing. If I am approaching someone, I can force a block/evasion.

I think you're forgetting an important option that your opponent has against approaching.

 

[DeLux]

Wait what? Really?
How can the game measure it as a JC usmash if the jump hasn't started (ie the jumpsquat frames haven't started)? By inputting jump + usmash/upB on the same frame?

My exact reaction when I too was informed of this lol

 

[Dark.Pch]

I think you're forgetting an important option that your opponent has against approaching.

You forget those option(s) lead to pressure. Realize how being pressured even begins.

 

[fkacyan]

This entire conversation is made even more humorous by how stupid it is to hit somebody's shield in Brawl.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I enjoyed this last page sooooo much.

My Pokemon avatar isn't weird, it's fairly normal.

mewtwo isnt green, shut up.

He is either stating we are good friends or I am better/smarter then him at this game. I'm pretty sure it is not the first choice.

love this.

And then there's the MIGHTY Bison!

#BecauseWeAllKnowItWasJustATuesday

GOD Raul Julia was sooooo good.

This entire conversation is made even more humorous by how stupid it is to hit somebody's shield in Brawl.

rofl. its funny because its true.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

mewtwo isnt green, shut up.

Shiny Mewtwo is.

 

[infiniteV115]

Well if we look at the normal distribution of Mewtwo colours and use a p-value of 0.05 (standard), then that means we should conclude that any green Mewtwo is not actually a Mewtwo (because the chance of it being green is 1/8192 < 0.05) but a different pokemon.

And since I don't know what this pokemon is, that makes it a weird avatar.

Completely illogical application of inferential statistics ftw.

 

[bassem6]

I've also beaten Jnig, Bassem, whatever Warios are out there that I have faced in money matches or bracket. I honestly don't remember them all.

Namesearched myself today and came across this. Sorry that this is 50+ pages later but I felt the need to correct this slanderous statement about myself. We have only ever played two sets against each other. They were at a HOBO and you money matched me two times in a row and I beat you both times.

I remember this because, you said that I was the only wario to ever beat you. My opinion is that the MU is 55-45 peach's favor. Only reason I think it's not worse than that is because wario can easily run away from peach and air camp for farts.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Good to know, thanks.

He is either stating we are good friends or I am better/smarter then him at this game. I'm pretty sure it is not the first choice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HM9tyNkUAg

 

[Sinister Slush]

One makes money, one doesn't.
Try to figure out which is which between Joe and Dark.Pch.