Psychoace
Smash Champion
By your powers combined, then there's captain falcon!
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Official BBR Tier List v7
- Thread starter Marc
- Start date
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Lukingordex
No Custom Titles Allowed
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2012
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+2 Squirtle imo.water beats fire
+4s
Lucas is -2 against PT due to that and Charizard's GR things.
Lucas vs Ivysaur is even.
I'm not entirely sure zard's grab release works properly on lucas. Its been a while but I remember it not working the way it does on ness. You either can't always regrab while standing (and zard has the slowest walk in the game so it might not help) or get the dtilt at the end. Ness however gets it hard if he gets grabbed. A walk to the ledge and dtilt kills at 90 or so.
btw if a character goes even with ivysaur, thats just pure trash. no way lucas goes even with ivy.
btw if a character goes even with ivysaur, thats just pure trash. no way lucas goes even with ivy.
Grab-release -> running grab is always a thing on Lucas for Charizard, as far as I'm aware--So is grab-release -> D-Tilt.
Yeah, I can confirm that. So many parts of Ivysaur's design just seem tailor-made to beat DK. The way he drops his shield, the way he recovers, his mediocre shield, his tilts getting caught by Bullet Seed on reaction...Doesn't dk lose to ivy?
Reflex
Also, I don't namesearch.
Grizzlpaw
Rawr~ ♪
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
I'm finding it really funny that both the MBR and BBR Tier List discussion threads are talking about elements.
Mekos
Smash Master
lol that DDD one was pretty good
Steam
Smash Hero
I don't think Lucario really -3's anyone other than ganon. He just can't carry you nearly that hard unless you're against sonic or yoshi maybe. People just especially lose to Lucario when they don't know the matchup. But don't worry, like even M2K still hasn't learned it.
like since the dawn of forever I thought the consensus on Lucas- Lucario was even or +1 Lucario lol.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Doesn't Lucario like... destroy Sonic
I was under the impression that Lucario was -really- hard for Yoshi.
Delta-cod
Smash Hero
Lucario used to be our worst match up.
Then we got better and learned how to not suck. Then he became not so bad, but still bad.
Lucario really only sucks because we can't kill the guy. >_>
Then we got better and learned how to not suck. Then he became not so bad, but still bad.
Lucario really only sucks because we can't kill the guy. >_>
Life
Smash Hero
need to be on last page when posting
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
Lucario is the only character that ALL the sonics can agree that is one of our worst matchups. Personally i think tink and ics are really bad too. But espy doesnt think they are that bad and as i recall, thinks that olimar is up there. Some of them dont even think MK is that bad (those people are stupid though)
So the general consensus is that lucario is a -3 while mk fluctuates between -2 and -3 depending on how optimistic we are that day. And everyone else is - 2 or better.
So the general consensus is that lucario is a -3 while mk fluctuates between -2 and -3 depending on how optimistic we are that day. And everyone else is - 2 or better.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
When did you get a name change Espy?
Life
Smash Hero
I always had more trouble with Oli than MK. Not that I play on a level where that's relevant though.
Not sure where you're getting TL and IC's, but that's probably a question more suited for the Sonic boards.
Not sure where you're getting TL and IC's, but that's probably a question more suited for the Sonic boards.
Luigi player
Smash Master
And then again all DK needs to do is get a grab on Ivy while it has a bit % and is near to the ledge so he can cargo dtoss it offstage...Yeah, I can confirm that. So many parts of Ivysaur's design just seem tailor-made to beat DK. The way he drops his shield, the way he recovers, his mediocre shield, his tilts getting caught by Bullet Seed on reaction...
Also, I don't namesearch.
No reason for Ivysaur to bother--She has a projectile, while DK doesn't. Also, her pokes work really well in the neutral position. Why would she even be there? Also, that's hardly a free stock (though it is threatening for Ivysaur).
I mean, ask Will if you want. He'll probably vouch for me to some degree.
Luigi player
Smash Master
A very slow projectile which shouldn't really hit much considering DK doesn't spam anything himself to be open for it unless he's pretty near on Ivy and get's read on his approach or something. So I wouldn't really say it's a any true bother to him. I can see it's pokes doing some damage, but most of it's stuff does little damage the only real threat is bullet seed which can also be DIed to not take too much % from it...
Yeah it's not a free stock, but Ivy has to like dj airdodge or double jump fair, both could lose to bair and if it's going low then... DK can go for the ledge to upB in place. Seems really treatening for Ivy. DK just needs to get the right read. If Ivy turns around with RL to bair it puts itself really open too and bair doesn't threaten DK and is more like a "I hope it'll hit"-move in that situation.
Other than that DKs spaced downB/ftilt, (shield-)grab should be pretty good, and bair of course. (It can't bullet seed spaced ftilt, right..?)
I could never see this MU as anything better than -1 for Ivy.
Yeah it's not a free stock, but Ivy has to like dj airdodge or double jump fair, both could lose to bair and if it's going low then... DK can go for the ledge to upB in place. Seems really treatening for Ivy. DK just needs to get the right read. If Ivy turns around with RL to bair it puts itself really open too and bair doesn't threaten DK and is more like a "I hope it'll hit"-move in that situation.
Other than that DKs spaced downB/ftilt, (shield-)grab should be pretty good, and bair of course. (It can't bullet seed spaced ftilt, right..?)
I could never see this MU as anything better than -1 for Ivy.
This is true. I don't know why Mekos thinks Lucario is so bad. ">.>
Lucas is -1 against PT as well. And we definitely beat Ivysaur. Fire+Ice vs. Grass and all that jazz.
B-Air and Razor Leaf's purpose is to get DK's shield weak enough to start poking with tilts, B-Air, and Bullet Seed. They do a fine job with that.
DK has to roll away from Bullet Seed, because when he put his shield down, he flops his arms outward, which gets him caught in about 30%'s worth of Bullet Seed. Also, any of DK's tilts can be shielded and Bullet Seeded out-of-shield on reaction. Even spaced F-Tilt isn't safe. DK has to use a lot of Down-B and camping to manage, but, it's still really bad for him.
I'd say it's +2 Ivysaur. Not a "strong" +2, but, I'd definitely call it a soft counter.
Luigi player
Smash Master
Welp, everyone set in their opinion.
What do you think about Squritle vs DK? Is it worse than Ivy?
What do you think about Squritle vs DK? Is it worse than Ivy?
Maharba the Mystic
Smash Master
SO WAT YOU'RE SAYING ISThis is true. I don't know why Mekos thinks Lucario is so bad. ">.>
Lucas is -1 against PT as well. And we definitely beat Ivysaur. Fire+Ice vs. Grass and all that jazz.
MEKOS IS BAD
which means
GLUTTONY IS BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD.
Case Closed
Except for the DK players I go against.Welp, everyone set in their opinion.
What do you think about Squritle vs DK? Is it worse than Ivy?
Hard to say exactly how it goes. I don't spotdodge enough--A personal weakness. It's either +1 Squirtle or even, I feel. Squirtle juggles DK pretty nastily and edgeguard well with D-Air, but it can be hard to get in.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Hi Reflex. I hate Squirtle. I fear the day I have to play you. That is all.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
Everytime zss people talk about pt, i remember that match of magik vs snakeee and i just laugh and laugh and laugh
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
in defense of snakeee, squirtle is terrifying for zss, especially if you have zero matchup experience like he did.
When quik played some PT main recently in europe he would like, get owned by squirtle for two minutes and then destroy the other two and then get tossed around by squirtle again >_>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWUBQvrTboE
this one
When quik played some PT main recently in europe he would like, get owned by squirtle for two minutes and then destroy the other two and then get tossed around by squirtle again >_>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWUBQvrTboE
this one
Myollnir
Smash Ace
No johns, but I played really bad this set (I wasn't in the mood for brawl, especially after getting destroyed by Leon). Pretty sure I could have defeated him if I played at my best level.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
We weren't even judging your PT, Myollnir, SFP was just demonstrating how Squirtle vs. ZSS works
Don't be so worried about how good people think you are
Don't be so worried about how good people think you are
SoulPech
Smash Master
I fixed it.We weren't even judging your PT, Myollnir, SFP was just demonstrating how Squirtle vs. ZSS works
Always be concerned about what people think about you because forum impressions greatly matter
Myollnir
Smash Ace
True.
But I said this because I lost and I'm ok with that, I'm not saying that I should've won. The thing is, I wasn't playing at my best so it's not really a good vid to speak about the MU.
I said I could've won because I feel like this MU is quite good for PT, even though I haven't got as much experience in this MU as I'd like to.
Oh, I just wanted people to know that the MU is not THAT bad with Ivy/Zard (I didn't chose the best options, I spammed airdodges [with Squirtle too, but he has more mobility so it's less punishable] without knowing why, when I was playing, I felt that I pressed unintentionnally R ; I guess I had too much pressure).Grim Tuesday said:We weren't even judging your PT, Myollnir, SFP was just demonstrating how Squirtle vs. ZSS works
Don't be so worried about how good people think you are
And I know I suck (and no, I'm not saying this because I want you to say that I don't suck
. I do plenty of mistakes and I'm aware of this), but hopefully I'll improve so I don't suck anymore. 
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
So...why is Squirtle 'terrifying' for ZSS?
Wario isn't even 'terrifying' for ZSS and this may be my lack of Squirtle knowledge speaking, but Wario just seems like a Squirtle that hits harder but isn't as good at juggling
Wario isn't even 'terrifying' for ZSS and this may be my lack of Squirtle knowledge speaking, but Wario just seems like a Squirtle that hits harder but isn't as good at juggling
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Wario doesn't have a frame-one jab, that could have something to do with it.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Wario is also a lot larger which helps.
Also squirtle's ftilt is probably better than wario's entire moveset outside of bite.
Wario isn't that similar to ZSS in this matchup. Squirtle beats ZSS at her own game, which is why he's annoying.
Also squirtle's ftilt is probably better than wario's entire moveset outside of bite.
Wario isn't that similar to ZSS in this matchup. Squirtle beats ZSS at her own game, which is why he's annoying.
Iota
Smash Lord
Squirtle also has overall faster aerials.
AllyKnight
Banned via Administration
Gluttony was free with MK, that is no longer viable.LOL at people actually taking xonars posts seriously wow.
And yeah @ tesh nobody said eu>na. But how can you say that we pose no thread after beating Dehf,ally, vinnie and dabuz ?
Also liked how you completely ignored what I said about mikeneko getting 2/3rd in the hardest region in the world lmao
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