Dakpo
Smash Lord
getting squirtle in the infinite and switching to ivysaur both mean free stock 
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Official BBR Tier List v7
- Thread starter Marc
- Start date
- Status
With request after a long time: I'm going to write this somewhat informally so people can read it
In my opinion of two of the true low tiers of brawl i feel overall, Mario is a better character than Lucas. Let's ignore tournament results which honestly are quite flawed, i mean come on if UK made a tier list Luigi and Fox woud be top 3, i know in large continents like america and Europe overall they get more accurate. Well that and Lucas out performs Mario by lets be honest a long way lol, but if anything it more shows player prefference not the particular potential of the character. Heck lets take Wolf for example for 4 tier lists Luigi was above him Luigi, a complete and utterly abysmal character was put above one that was vastly better in every matchup. We can also take an example from the current tier list, such as Olimar for instance, he is a great character but he is not 2nd in the game. Ice climbers arguably have no bad matchups whatsoever and take any character from 0 to death. Though even if we use different variations of deciding tier placement through tourney results, success to popularity has it's issues as well according to that Marth is practically mid tier and Pokemon Trainer is 7th in the game.
The reason that I feel fighting game communities use tourney results for tier lists is more the fact that everyone disagrees with eachother on at least one thing, heck take me i know most people don't feel wolf is the 7th best character or that Snake should be 10th but it's an example of how we all have different opinions, it can be what makes fighting game communities so interesting and fun to socialise in not just brawl but scenes in general. I'm sure most of you disagree that Lucas is worse than Mario. But in the factors of overall ground game, OOS options, air game and recovery as well as character specific issues, Mario is and should be considered an overall better character than Lucas.
To start off with lets look at ground game, both sides I feel are actually quit similair both have jabs that start on frame 2. Mario i personally feels has better combo ability with Up tilts and his down throw. But Lucas F-smash is a decent reliable kill move, though it is relatively easy to avoid, both characters will end up trying to land the last hit, Lucas has a slightly easier time but Mario will get to those percents faster. They both have good GTFO attacks, Mario has Down smash, Jab and to some extent F-tilt whereas lucas has his Jab and F-tilt. In terms of movesets both i feel are equally weighed in the ground game department. That is however until you look at both characters grabs Mario's is a pretty standard grab, it's range is ok and it's kind of the norm. Lucas grab however, sucks his standing grab takes longer to come out and is vastly lagier his dash grab has more frames, it's Like Yoshi's if it was vastly inferior, even Lucas Pivot grab which is somwwhat fast lags by even more frames than Yoshi's. now don't get me wrong yoshi has a solid pivot grab, but the standing grab and dash grab are both dangerous. Lucas grab is basically that but worse, it's lower to the ground so Lucas can't pivot grab ariels easily or get air releases. Mario however can get air releases out of pivot grabs in some situations, which gives mario a decent Wario matchup, theres also the fact mario's grab is far less situational than lucases, he can shield grab, Lucas can't, he can dash grab and it carry alot less frame though dash grabbing isn't a good idea for most characters in the game. Though one strength of Lucas is the fact he's got something of an Olimar complex in that some matchups he can throw PK fires and read with pivot grabs to force aproaches and get a slight edge in few but certain matchups. i'm not going to beat around the bush PK fire is a vastly better projectile than mario's fireballs but, it's so much more punishable and honestly I think it sucks as a move. it's only good vs characters that had problems with projectiles to begin with and even alot of them. Like Donkey Kong, completely and utterly cripple Lucas by turtling his attacks. Mario has a similair issue especially when you look at his King Dedede matchup.
Lucas has a vastly rougher time with turtling than Mario does in general heck he looses to Bowser that alone should say something. This is mainly down to the fact PK fire has so many frames but also down to the fact Lucas has alot more cool down and start up on his ariels in comprison to Mario are out right laughable. People talk about Lucas having better options but his air game is diabolically bad. His F-air has almost no range, his N-air is long lasting and is diable, his D-air is diable and techable. Mario's ariels come out alot faster, have vastly less cool down, aren't diable other than D-air which is more of a side step punisher and shield pressuring tool anyway. Lucas does have moves that are semi safe on shield, like Mario does but he is so much more punishable, F-air and B-air are 9 and 15 frames, granted the rest of his ariels come out much closer to Mario's ok granted Lucas has a better F-air but who doesn't? and Mario's N-air does the same job as a forward ariels only difference is that doesn't hit on Frame 39 and is diable. It is conclusive to say Mario has a much better air game than Lucas. I mean Wolf can OOS Up smash Lucas' ariels, thats... quite pathetic to be honest.
We now look at the characters options, This is the section i get the most anoyed writing. in recent times people have been expressing that Lucas has more options than other low tier. That is complete and utter bull **** Mario has better options. This is the part where I just come out and say it, Lucas is not mid tier at all, I mean come on Mario is a bad character, but Mario has: an Up B out of shield, and a better ability to shield grab, a faster recovery, which albeit still sucks and Lucas has a better recovery but on stage mario has much better options, his grab isn't too low to the ground so he can pivot grab certain ariels, his Up B is situational butvery useful when you learn to use it, heck ground game like i said both characters are pretty much equal other than Lucas being able to kill a bit easier especiall when you take into account his Down throw can kill reliably. Though Lucas recovery isn't that good, it's pretty easy to punish at times and alot of his gimmicks like PK fire jump and magnet pull are pretty obsolete nowadays and tether recoveries all suck. On the shield grab note i'm aware Lucas can shield grab; however it is much less consistant than Mario's is being at frame 13 he can't exactly punish most fast ariels with it.
We now go onto character specific weaknesses, to my knowledge neither side has blind spots or anything of that manner but both characters are small and in general possess low range, but fast attacks, Both are succeptible to the same chain throws bar Mario who get's infinited by King D3. It's roughly similair, Until you pummel and let Lucas ground release. Bare in mind so far I feel i've argued both characters to be somewhat equal to eachother with different strengths and weaknesses well other than Air game which Mario completely trumps Lucas at. Theres Also Lucas's grab release issue, which gives him 4 -3 matchups to Marth, Snake, Donkey Kong and Shiek. Mario has two -3 matchups Meta knight and King Dedede granted Lucas has a better meta Knight and Falco matchup than Mario does but compared to the rest of high tier and mid tier mario performs much better overall, as a result of the fact he basically has the same if not better tools than Lucas in alot of cases. Though Lucas can force aproaches in some matchups, the ones he can tend to obliterate him regardless by turtling, Mario can at least D-air to wear down shields and if used correctly can be safe, Lucas N-air can be safely used but it's lagier and more easily punished and isn't as good for pressuring shields, meaning Mario isn't beaten by turtling as hard as Lucas. Then factor in Lucas's grab release issue and it's pretty obvious that he's worse than Mario, what does this character have other than better killing? and overall worse high tier matchups I mean Lucas is alright against Falco but Mario V Wario is only -1. Diddy and Oli can be argued even so other than being -2ed by Meta knight and getting wrecked nearly as badly as Mario anyway what does this character have that makes him better? The pure and simple answer is pretty much nothing. I didn't even mention Mario has a solid gimp game and i've already successfully argued Mario is the better character regardless. Overall matchups theres no contest Mario regardless of loosing to Lucas does better in the scheme of the game anyway.
Lucas has
a better killing game
a better recovery even though it has issues of it's own
solid pivot grab
Mario has:
no ground release issue
a better OOS game
more counter attack options
a better shield wear down option making turtling him harder than Lucas
a better air game
better matchups
better shield grab
better combo ability
nuff said
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
I read that you think Wolf is seventh best.
Stopped reading.
Stopped reading.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Everyone has different opinions, but some opinions are more different than others
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
sucks, but sucks more!
I lost so hard. I loved that book and everything.Everyone has different opinions, but some opinions are more different than others
@PMC: I will get to reading that huge post shortly. However there are some fundamental flaws at the moment.
Claire Diviner
President
Well, perhaps characters in low tiers, in the case of Mario/Lucas, are ranked so because not many people use said characters in tourneys, or if they do, their matches aren't really subject to attention for people to care and evaluate their performance in specific MUs. I don't know how often low tiers make it out of pools in tourneys, but I'm willing to bet their matches aren't really given much hype as - say - a top professional using Falco or Marth. We can try low tier-only tournaments, but that really wouldn't give us a good measurement of their potential of how they'd do in nationals, like Apex or MLG.
What I'm trying to say is that perhaps the reason Mario is ranked 1 placement lower than Lucas is because no one really cared to reevaluate the characters' performance in tourneys or measure their MUs. I mean, their tier placement didn't budge from the last tier list, if that's anything to go by. As for Wolf, who isn't even at that bad a tier placement in my opinion, he ranks where he is because he dies to some key commonly seen high tiers, and his -3 to Dedede and Pikachu doesn't exactly do him favors, though I admit I don't know how often those two are seen in tourneys.
What I'm trying to say is that perhaps the reason Mario is ranked 1 placement lower than Lucas is because no one really cared to reevaluate the characters' performance in tourneys or measure their MUs. I mean, their tier placement didn't budge from the last tier list, if that's anything to go by. As for Wolf, who isn't even at that bad a tier placement in my opinion, he ranks where he is because he dies to some key commonly seen high tiers, and his -3 to Dedede and Pikachu doesn't exactly do him favors, though I admit I don't know how often those two are seen in tourneys.
Claire Diviner
President
I meant playing against Wolf. Besides his CG MU's (lol), you actually have to know how to deal with his Bair spacing with his ground game etc. You can't sit there and Snake Ftilt to win, or molest him like G&W/Marth do to low tiers.
lol @ GW / Marth 'molesting' other characters.
And well, most people who play the match-up will vouch for the fact that a pocket DDD isn't enough to take down a competent Wolf, which is why the match-up was mistaken for +2 DDD for the longest time. Coney / Seagull namesearch & confirm this plz
And well, most people who play the match-up will vouch for the fact that a pocket DDD isn't enough to take down a competent Wolf, which is why the match-up was mistaken for +2 DDD for the longest time. Coney / Seagull namesearch & confirm this plz
I just want to say Pika isn't as bad as -3 pikachu boards are just fan boys.
D3 shouldn't be high tier he's bodied too hard by characters above him two -3 matchups again the two most overpowered characters in the game a horrible Olimar, Falco and Pikachu matchup if anything he's mid because he's good against the odd high tier but not good vs high tier in general.he's rarely used and anyone who uses him nowadays bar one Japanese player that placed well at SRT who mained him there are no D3 mainers. Atomsk relies quite heavily on other characters to get him through sets at times and Coney switched to Ness.
In honesty I think D3 is a linear slow *** character with not that much going for him other than a circus trick chain grab and being such an attack sponge. To quote my friend D3 himselfas a character sucks but down throw is an amazing character. Same with Game and watch really
I think mid tier should look like this imo
:Toon Link:
each: :Yoshi:: MR.Game and Watch: :King Dedede:
:Kirby: :Ike: :Shielda: :Shiek:
other than D3 V Ike being -2 it's still somewhat winable and the other matchups vs other characters are even or -1 no theoretically unviable characters like Luigi, or Ness that only really do well when people don't know the matchups vs those characters.
On a sub note I feel low tier is viable every character is viable to some degree sure we get some wacky low tier pro that does stupidly well with a garbage character. like Il's Ganon or that Bowser main in Europe that got to grand finals with him, does that mean they should all be higher because they've done well?
D3 shouldn't be high tier he's bodied too hard by characters above him two -3 matchups again the two most overpowered characters in the game a horrible Olimar, Falco and Pikachu matchup if anything he's mid because he's good against the odd high tier but not good vs high tier in general.he's rarely used and anyone who uses him nowadays bar one Japanese player that placed well at SRT who mained him there are no D3 mainers. Atomsk relies quite heavily on other characters to get him through sets at times and Coney switched to Ness.
In honesty I think D3 is a linear slow *** character with not that much going for him other than a circus trick chain grab and being such an attack sponge. To quote my friend D3 himselfas a character sucks but down throw is an amazing character. Same with Game and watch really
I think mid tier should look like this imo
:Toon Link:
each: :Yoshi:: MR.Game and Watch: :King Dedede::Kirby: :Ike: :Shielda: :Shiek:
other than D3 V Ike being -2 it's still somewhat winable and the other matchups vs other characters are even or -1 no theoretically unviable characters like Luigi, or Ness that only really do well when people don't know the matchups vs those characters.
On a sub note I feel low tier is viable every character is viable to some degree sure we get some wacky low tier pro that does stupidly well with a garbage character. like Il's Ganon or that Bowser main in Europe that got to grand finals with him, does that mean they should all be higher because they've done well?
Both of them do! Marth more so than G&W. Lot of low and mid tiers have trouble with them, and those MU's tend to be "Oh Marth has Fair Dtilt and Dancing Blade" not a ton of thought or knowledge of the other character required. You can't do that to Wolf though.lol @ GW / Marth 'molesting' other characters.
And well, most people who play the match-up will vouch for the fact that a pocket DDD isn't enough to take down a competent Wolf, which is why the match-up was mistaken for +2 DDD for the longest time. Coney / Seagull namesearch & confirm this plz
and
Claire Diviner
President
Raziek
Charging Limit All Day
I wouldn't exactly qualify this as an educated opinion, given my complete lack of Mario or Lucas experience, but simply the fact that Lucas at least has the "gimmick factor" makes him a better character than Mario, in my opnion.
Claire Diviner
President
Well, you don't really need to prove it, seeing as he's already low tier.
Claire Diviner
President
I wouldn't know since I know next to nothing about what Lucas can do.
You aren't the only person. ;P
BSP has it right there is more evidence for Lucas>Mario in the tier list.
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
lol @ GW / Marth 'molesting' other characters.
And well, most people who play the match-up will vouch for the fact that a pocket DDD isn't enough to take down a competent Wolf, which is why the match-up was mistaken for +2 DDD for the longest time. Coney / Seagull namesearch & confirm this plz
will never beat a that knows the matchup.
What if it's a pocket Dedede that knows the matchup...?
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
Claire Diviner
President
Unless said player has a pocket Dedede solely for the Wolf MU that their primary main otherwise couldn't handle, or does that not count?
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
Main- Character you go often in tourney and familiarize yourself with the most.
Secondary- A character you don't use as often in tourney, but do use in specific scenarios (Like cp matchups that you have learned).
Pocket- A character you whip out just for a Cp even if you have never picked the character and don't know a matchup entirely.
That's just arguing semantics. No character should be losing to any character if the opponent has never picked the character.
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
The point is, a person would need to learn a matchup to at least qualify as a secondary. If they use
in friendlies, but never in tourney and whip him out without knowing matchups I'd classify that as a pocket.
Claire Diviner
President
I always though "pocket" meant a character a player knows, but no one knew said player knows said character. That didn't sound confusing, did it?
Sure, but, by your definition of "pocket character," that character wouldn't beat a competent anyone who knows the matchup. That's hardly exclusive to Wolf.The point is, a person would need to learn a matchup to at least qualify as a secondary. If they use
Luigi player
Smash Master
Not confusing, but it doesn't really make too much sense imo...
I'd call a pocket a char the person almost never uses in tourney / to CP certain stuff. (so it's likely many people haven't heard of it, but it's not a necessity)
Claire Diviner
President
That was my initial thought, but what about knowing how to use the character? Is there really that fine a line between pocket and secondary?
Luigi player
Smash Master
welp, dunno, but I guess to me it is just that close
while finishing my previous post I also thought that could be said for a secondary too....
while finishing my previous post I also thought that could be said for a secondary too....
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