Official BBR Tier List v7

[Ayce God]

aren't all warios free to mk

 

[DMG]

For a MU Wario doesn't win, sounds about right.

***s

Seriously if you're surprised that big quick sword beats Wario, idk what to tell ya.

 

[M@v]

wario is free to grabs. Totally pick that character every time i face a wario.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

So...why is Squirtle 'terrifying' for ZSS?

When Squirtle is crouching, all of ZSS's grab ranges are severely reduced (only the tip at the maximum range grabs), ZSS's Jab range is severely reduced, her F-Tilt range is reduced (only down-angled F-Tilt hits), her Dash Attack range is severely reduced (you pretty much have to hit with her butt), and she can't U-Tilt Squirtle. Squirtle's F-Tilt tends to largely outclass Zero Suit's non-D-Smash ground options, which allows Squirtle to sneak in Jabs and grabs.

Also, since Squirtle is short and mobile, Zero Suit Samus's aerial harassment isn't very threatening, while Squirtle isn't too worried about ZSS's retaliation after you hit her shield with generally safe moves.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

or yall could just ask dakpo how he handles squirtle and realize zss ****s on squirtle. i thought it was squirtles favor until he told me the secret. i **** you not ask dakpo.

edit: doesn't she infinite squirtle too?

 

[Espy Rose]

She probably gets an air release to regrab I'd imagine.

 

[DMG]

prob a running CG but not an infinite no

 

[Player-1]

she has a standing regrab which can seen as infininite.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Yeah, she has a standing regrab infinite.

 

[Myollnir]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Squirtle can switch to avoid the infinite.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Squirtle can switch to avoid the infinite.

Not that I'm aware of, but, I guess it's worth testing.

 

[DMG]

wat

wat

How can she stand there and regrab

 

[Player-1]

You press Z


and then when squirtle releases you press z again

 

[DMG]

Shake it like a salt shaker?

 

[Yodery]

GnW should be a little higher. Real talk trill swag 666.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

^This

GnW + Good Reads =

 

[ぱみゅ]

Not to be the party pooper here, but...

Ganon + Good Reads =


I just mean that GnW has other attributes, like mobility and range, that are far more important than his punish game....

 

[Sinister Slush]

Good reads or not, doesn't change how terrible he is.

 

[stingers]

ganons not that terrible. hes bot 3 but hes better than falcon and maybe zelda

 

[infiniteV115]

ZSS does have a standing regrab infinite on Squirtle, but it's impractical because it's hard.

From what I've been told, you can't buffer the regrab (if you do the grab comes out too early), you have to use it on your 3rd or 4th available frame.

I don't see how Squirtle's crouch avoiding ZSS' utilt contributes to anything, ZSS should never really be utilting in a neutral position (ie one where Squirtle has the chance to crouch). She should either be doing it OoS as a punish (ie she has a frame advantage, so Squirtle gets hit by utilt before he can crouch) or out of a dash attack.

What are Squirtle's safe-on-shield moves?

How bad do you (Reflex) feel the MU is? Cause honestly I don't consider any of ZSS' MUs terrifying (none are worse than -1 imo) and I have trouble believing that Squirtle gives her a harder time than Olimar does.

 

[Tesh]

Squirtle is pretty short during the landing lag from fair/bair. This probably causes alot of her stuff to miss when he hits her shield while landing too.

Ftilt just ends way too fast for ZSS to punish with grab and the range is alot better than her jab.

 

[infiniteV115]

Dtilt OoS the fair/bair?

Dtilt is usually our go-to-OoS punish (along with dash attack) when we're not sure that utilt will connect.

 

[Tesh]

Ftilt is one of those absurdly quick startup and endlag moves that you probably can't punish if shield drop is involved. Bair and Fair are similar. Each one probably ends too fast for you to dtilt (7 frame shield drop + 6 frame dtilt + whatever couple of shield stun frames you might get from it). Jab and instant dash attack should work if squirtle was actually that close to you.

Kinda like how Kirby can back air some people right in front of their faces and not get grabbed. I think her fastest options just don't reach low and far enough.

 

[infiniteV115]

I was able to consistently PS-->dtilt ChuDat's landing FF bairs so fair and bair would have to be abnormally safe on shield.

And I don't know how safe they are on shield cause I've never played a Squirtle lol.

I'm really just arguing against the use of the word 'terrifying'. I mean yeah I can see Squirtle beating ZSS, but people are making it sound like he hard counters her.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Dtilt OoS the fair/bair?

Dtilt is usually our go-to-OoS punish (along with dash attack) when we're not sure that utilt will connect.

I think landing B-Air is something like -9 on shield (assuming the hitbox comes out right before Squirtle lands). ZSS D-Tilt can't reliably punish it without making Squirtle second-guess a potential D-Smash/grab/something.

The important thing is that B-Air's usually going to be shellshifted into a retreating B-Air, which makes it a rising B-Air. Also, Frame 1 Jab can stuff a lot of ZSS's retaliation options.

If none of ZSS's matchups are worse than -1, maybe people are spoiled and see a -2 as a terrifying matchup? I dunno. I'm on the fence about the rating.

 

[Tesh]

Yea, but squirtles jab helps a ton with that because if ZSS tries to do anything except stay in shield/roll away, its going to interrupt her. Kirby's bair is the same or better on shield, but he has no ground game, so you probably just hit him trying to get back in the air or fsmash/grab you.

 

[Dakpo]

simply plank until squirtle is tired...simple as that. Also the infinite is not terribly difficult. In fact I have done the infinite until his fatigue kicked in

 

[Yikarur]

Squirtle can avoid the infinite by switching because downB can be used during landing lag and is invincible in frame 1.

 

[-LzR-]

Well switching to Ivysaur and getting hit by anything for free is not really a good thing at all. Probably better to just hope they mess up.

 

[infiniteV115]

Fairly certain Squirtle gets grabbed before he hits the ground.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Fairly certain Squirtle gets grabbed before he hits the ground.

I'm pretty sure that's the case, yeah.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Even if it wasn't the case, -LzR- made a point in saying it wouldn't be very beneficial in giving the opponent a free hit by switching to Ivysaur anyway, so regardless, it's still a headache for Squirtle if caught.

 

[infiniteV115]

Not to mention that if the ZSS isn't confident in her ability to do the standing infinite she can just do the air release chaingrab unless Squirtle is offstage, especially since he has to worry about dsmash footstool edgehog (guaranteed death if he doesn't have his DJ)

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Why wouldn't he have his jump?

Also, it's not guaranteed on some stages because of wall cling.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Why wouldn't he have his jump?

Maybe if the player's a noob and/or nervous and needlessly wastes their second jump? I dunno.

 

[infiniteV115]

Well at high percents an fthrow would probably force you to use your jump for recovery...or maybe we hit you with like nair/fair1 offstage or something lol

w/e, I shouldn't be talking about the MU. I'm just really surprised that it's even considered a potential -2 by the one good PT main (who also happens to have great ZSS exp)...

Oh well Ivysaur and Charizard suck :D

 

[Tesh]

^yea thats the important thing really. Those 2 are just so hopeless in this matchup especially.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Eh...It's really not terrible for either of them, especially Ivysaur. The real trouble comes from Zero Suit's ability to drag on the match and get fatigue involved.

 

[Espy Rose]

That sounds like trouble that any character can give PT, really.

 

[Tesh]

Its much more of a problem when the other character is fast and not easily gimped. Which is why Ivysaur and Charizard suck even more. Squirtle can really hunt you down and corner alot of characters, but Charizard and Ivysaur are very limited here, even if they can hit hard enough not to care about fatigue in rare situations.