Official BBR Tier List v7

[RaptorTEC]

Im not seeing these interesting mixups, just cape stalling, which is like, a day 1 think to do with Mario lol.

This. I was looking for it and only saw simple cape stalling

 

[GOofyGV]

Yeah bowsers fsmash does the most % from all smashes in the game !

yep but landing that against good players is freaking hard.


Bowser has an airgrab and superior OOS options over mario He also lives longer and he has much mopre range. He also lives longer.
However he is much easier to chaingrab and much easier to combo.
He has worse matchups and he is so fat

 

[Player-1]

bowser is a bottom 5 char in the game, mario is bottom mid tier

 

[Claire Diviner]

bowser is a bottom 5 char in the game, mario is bottom mid tier

Bowser, I can understand, but I don't see how Mario would be in the mid tier, let alone at the bottom of said tier.

 

[Lukingordex]

You DO know that Mario has been above Lucas in multiple BBR Tier Lists before right?

Giving outdated BBR Tier Lists as a example is useless.
But if you like to do it,let's argue for Yoshi being below characters like PT,Mario and Bowser again.

Also,the only BBR Tier List that Mario is above Lucas is v2.

 

[Claire Diviner]

You DO know that Mario has been above Lucas in multiple BBR Tier Lists before right?

Just like R.O.B. was above all but five characters in v1, and look where he is now.

Also,the only BBR Tier List that Mario is above Lucas is v2 imo.

More of a fact than an opinion, but I'm just being OCD-ish.

 

[Lukingordex]

Yeah that's a fact,I checked it now,I was not sure about that before.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Bowser vs. Mario? I'd say Bowser has the upper hand mostly because his attacks can out-range just about anything Mario throws at him. That's not saying too much though, since once Mario is able to get in, he can rack up some fairly good damage. Sadly, Mario's most effective way of killing is by gimping, at least in the Bowser MU (among others), and we all know how mediocre his gimping game is, even with the cape.

This is the tier list thread, not the matchup thread. The matchup between the 2 doesnt really matter.

That being said, bowser is fkng awful. Id go so far as to say his strengths are OVERrated in this thread. His ONLY threatening move is klaw. As long as you can avoid that and pressure him in a way that doesnt get you up bd oos, you win. Doesnt matter how heavy he is because he will lose nearly every encounter, his grab stuff is over stated because his grab range is worse than the ics, with more lag and he only gets slightly more reward for landing it than normal characters grabs.

Every other move he has is either too awkward to use outside of (bad) mixups or painfully linear.
Marios recovery is better too. This is brawl so everyone has a good recovery mostly so the difference between the two is moot.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Well then MU for MU, Mario is better than Bowser. He has more better MUs, including an even MU with Bowser and several mid-tiers, and Bowser has, like, a couple of -4 MUs. Bowser has many things going against him. While yes, Mario does too, it isn't as bad. I'd like to think their sizes have something to do with it.

 

[Lukingordex]

If I recall correctly,Bowser has a -4 against D3 and MK and a couple of -3 MUs,not sure.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Does yoshi have a +4 on bowser with some grab stuff?

 

[Claire Diviner]

Does yoshi have a +4 on bowser with some grab stuff?

It's apparently +3, which is still really bad for Bowser. I don't know if Bowser has the grab-release issue that - say - Ganon has vs. Yoshi.

 

[Luigi player]

Bowser vs Yoshi isn't worse than -1.

 

[Lukingordex]

Yoshi has a +3 against Bowser because Yoshi just force his approach with eggs,then punish it with a Pivot/Dash or whatever,CG him to hell and it ends. :I

 

[Claire Diviner]

Not to mention Bowser has a hard time hitting a good Yoshi, what with Yoshi's mobility, especially in the air. I really don't see a lot of options Bowser has vs. Yoshi, be it on or off stage.

 

[Matador]

Whether or not Mario is bad enough to be bottom 5 is splitting hairs at this point. He's somewhere between bottom 7-5, so it doesn't really matter, lol.

Most of the Mario mains I'm sure still play him because they don't feel like picking anyone else up (at least Xero and I do it, steep is still optimistic somehow). Can we go back to talking about Falco/Marth/Snake/mid tier flavor of the week?

This.

Good lord, this.

 

[Delta-cod]

Bowser vs Yoshi isn't worse than -1.

MM me Yoshi-Bowser for large sums of cash please.

 

[Flayl]

How to avoid getting gimped by Mario in Brawl: DI up

 

[GOofyGV]

Bowser has a -4 against D3 and IC's
He has a -3 against MK,(Diddy?),Falco,Wario,Olimar,Yoshi and I think he has more -3's

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Bowser as -3 vs Diddy and Falco sounds really, really hard to believe and I'm not quite sure about Olimar either. I can see those match-ups as -2 easily and Falco might be even only -1.

 

[Luigi player]

lol @ theoriecrafting....

Bowser might not be able to catch Yoshi in the air often, but Yoshi can't fight back at all so it's definitely a situation Yoshi doesn't want to be in and one that Bowser likes.

Yoshis aerials can't do **** there and Bowser threatens with uair/fair/bair.

Although this goes the other way around too (Bowser in the air can't do much and Yoshis nair/uair threaten).

Lol at Yoshi throwing eggs and then pivot grabbing the approach. Please get the award of best theoriecrafting 2012.

I have actually played the MU too and know a least a little of what I'm talking about.

Bowser has upB and jab. Those are like his best moves and he'll build most of his damage with those + fair.

Yoshi has problems KO Bowser since his KO options aren't that great (Bowser can recover from far away so he'll try to move away from the stage so Yoshi won't uair him too easily.

Bowser has problems getting back on the stage (but Yoshi too) at high %, but it's not like it's impossible to get back.

I really don't see what would make the MU that tremendously bad. Yoshis neutral B is probably worse for Bowser than Yoshis normal grab...

MM me Yoshi-Bowser for large sums of cash please.

Come to europe and we can for like 1-2€. I don't do large amount MMs since imo that's something I don't want to risk (anything can happen). I'd also feel bad for the other guy if I'd win.

Bowser has a -4 against D3 and IC's
He has a -3 against MK,(Diddy?),Falco,Wario,Olimar,Yoshi and I think he has more -3's

No...
Bowser is like -3 against Dedede (side B works really well and D3 doesn't infinite Bowser), maybe even only -2. -4 vs ICs (maybe -3, probably not though).
ICs are by far his worst MU.
I could see MK being a hard -2 MU too. It's obviously in MKs favor and by a bit, but it's not really bad like some people think. Diddy is bad too (-2, maybe -3), Falco is like -1 or -2.
Olimar is bad I guess, but sideB should work decent vs him. Didn't Dabuz also say he thinks it's only -2 after playing Zigster? Yoshi is like -1.

Bowser is underrated. He sucks and isn't a viable choice in high competitive play by any means, but he's like low mid tier material. It's just that nobody plays him and tries to even get good with him. There's only like 5 Bowser mains too and they'd still need someone good to really do work with him (I know he can't do that much work, but still show that he isn't as bad as many people seem to believe).

Vex was good with Bowser, but he dropped him. It's understandable, but kinda sad for Bowser since now there isn't anyone great playing him. I know a few Bowsers place(d) okay sometimes, but most have (almost) quit...


Kinda sad that people will forever underrate him unless someone steps it up again.

 

[Z'zgashi]

As a Bowser main, -3 against Diddy is definitely right, that match up is balls and Diddys naners just pressure us way too hard. Falco is probably a -2, although the MU goes really slowly cuz Falco camping is gay. Olimar definitely isnt a -3, and is more in the -1/-2 range. Otherwise I agree, D3 and IC's are -4, MK, Diddy, Wario, and Yoshi are -3, Falco is -2, and Oli is somewhere around -1/-2, honestly on the fence on that one.

 

[infiniteV115]

I don't see how Bowser vs Wario would be -3 for Bowser. I mean, I know pretty much nothing about Bowser, but...air releases yo.

Bowser's grab release game is one of the biggest things he has going for him, and the fact that he can Klaw for 18ish% every time he lands a grab on Wario, then kill early with usmash (dunno if he gets uair)...?

Does Wario CG him from 0-99999999 easily or something? XD

 

[Luigi player]

Does Wario CG him from 0-99999999 easily or something? XD

Kinda... it's pretty bad. Without Warios CG I could see it being -1/-2. But with the chaingrab it's very likely a -3.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Wario's aerial mobility makes it almost impossible to safely try to land anything on wario aside from klaw and jab, which even then are difficult to connect with, and the CG works on Bowser until around 120-130%ish where basically one fresh clap from Wario can finish us. Sure, we have the GR CG on him, but grabbing Wario with Bowser is FAR harder than Wario grabbing Bowser. Also Chomp is dumb cuz were so big lol.

 

[Luigi player]

Grabbing with Bowsers normal grab is difficult in general. His grabrange/lag is really bad...

 

[Claire Diviner]

Grabbing with Bowsers normal grab is difficult in general. His grabrange/lag is really bad...

Could the same be said for his pivot? I don't know how good or bad his pivot grab range is.

 

[| Big D |]

D3 doesn't infinite Bowser

He does at the ledge and it has to be pummeled.

 

[PMC66]

Bowser vs Yoshi isn't worse than -1.

Watch Delta vs King Kong and say that.

to quote pierce

'I don't care what figure people say it is i'm just going to go ahead and say that matchup is 80:20'

 

[Z'zgashi]

Lol Luigi Player, Yoshi ***** Bowser, and this is coming from a Bowser main who used to main Yoshi, so I understand both the characters more than any other characters in the game.

And as for Bowser's grab ranges:
Standing: http://www.ssbwiki.com/images/d/dc/BowserSSBBGrab(standing).png
Running: http://www.ssbwiki.com/images/f/fb/BowserSSBBGrab(running).png
Pivot: http://www.ssbwiki.com/images/1/19/BowserSSBBGrab(pivot).png

His Standing and Pivot grabs have slightly more lag afterwards than normal, but not too much more. Honestly his grabs arent terrible, although you would think hed have more range than he does, and his grabs definitely arent the best.

 

[Lukingordex]

lol @ theoriecrafting....

Bowser might not be able to catch Yoshi in the air often, but Yoshi can't fight back at all so it's definitely a situation Yoshi doesn't want to be in and one that Bowser likes.

Yoshis aerials can't do **** there and Bowser threatens with uair/fair/bair.

Although this goes the other way around too (Bowser in the air can't do much and Yoshis nair/uair threaten).

Lol at Yoshi throwing eggs and then pivot grabbing the approach. Please get the award of best theoriecrafting 2012.

I have actually played the MU too and know a least a little of what I'm talking about.

Bowser has upB and jab. Those are like his best moves and he'll build most of his damage with those + fair.

Yoshi has problems KO Bowser since his KO options aren't that great (Bowser can recover from far away so he'll try to move away from the stage so Yoshi won't uair him too easily.

Bowser has problems getting back on the stage (but Yoshi too) at high %, but it's not like it's impossible to get back.

I really don't see what would make the MU that tremendously bad. Yoshis neutral B is probably worse for Bowser than Yoshis normal grab...


Come to europe and we can for like 1-2€. I don't do large amount MMs since imo that's something I don't want to risk (anything can happen). I'd also feel bad for the other guy if I'd win.

Didn't Dabuz also say he thinks it's only -2 after playing Zigster? Yoshi is like -1.

Just play the MM with Delta and see.

 

[Z'zgashi]

lmaoooo, LP, youre so wrong im actually crying.

 

[PMC66]

well nobody knows everything but my god i've never seen a top level player be so wrong about a matchup Yoshi V Bowser is pretty miuch unwinable for Bowser, choke chain grab and the fact he has such bad problems aproaching, Yoshi can throw eggs near Bowser and not get punished for them it's practically a game breaking MU rofl.

 

[Luigi player]

You do know you're judging that from one match, right?

Kingkong got outplayed and that's all there is to it. He lost the rock paper scissors game too often, it happens.

Wait MK Snake is also -3 for Snake right? I think I've seen M2K 3 stock Ally before... WAIT WAIT I think I saw someone 2-3 stock someone in MK dittos too. That MU is TERRIBLE.

 

[Claire Diviner]

You do know you're judging that from one match, right?

Kingkong got outplayed and that's all there is to it. He lost the rock paper scissors game too often, it happens.

Wait MK Snake is also -3 vs Snake right? I think I've seen M2K 3 stock Ally before... WAIT WAIT I think I saw someone 2-3 stock someone in MK dittos too. That MU is TERRIBLE.

You mentioned you played the MU before. Which character were you playing, and was your opponent a competent player?

 

[Espy Rose]

LP, Bowser gets ravaged by Yoshi.

 

[Delta-cod]

Bowser is combo-fodder for Yoshi. He gets juggled easily, is forced to approach at neutral, has approaches that are easily enough stuffed by a combination of pivot grab and Usmash (this isn't even counting more offensive mixups like dash grab and Bair rush). Yoshi gets super easy chains on Bowser (FF Bair > Utilt > juggles/Usmash). When Yoshi lands a grab it's a free CG for the entire stage positioning. When Bowser is on the ledge, his options are easily covered with light Egg Toss and then jab/grab punishes assuming you airdodge through.

If Yoshi ever gets into a bad spot, he has incredibly easy escapes. His air speed prevents Bowser from chasing him through the air. Yoshi doesn't struggle on the ledge at all. A combination of ECE and Ledge Drop > Rising Dair/AD will beat most any pressure Bowser is exerting.

Bowser sucks at racking damage on Yoshi. Yoshi should never be in a position to get hit by Bowser's stronger moves. His Jab/fortress require us to be right on top of him, basically, and the only time that should be the case is when we have momentum (such as we Bair'd into you to start a combo). It doesn't matter that Bowser lives forever when we have an easy time racking damage and keeping momentum going on.

If Bowser's recovering from way offstage and we grab the ledge, we get a free Ledge Drop > Uair.

Alternatively, Bowser has no effective way of edge guarding us because our recovery is too flexible.

Bowser can't really kill us either. Smashes are obviously out of the question, which leaves like, dtilt and some aerials, all of which require us to be unable to escape bad positions. Bowser's Uair traps don't work well on Yoshi because we move too fast, so again, he'll be struggling.

Bowser's just too fat and too slow to deal with Yoshi.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Who loses to bowser?

 

[Espy Rose]

Lesser Bowsers.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Lots of Utah, thats why were considered bad :<