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Official BBR Tier List v7

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#HBC | Ryker

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I'm trying to re-locate that Statiatic as we speak.

:006:
Interestingly enough, according to the Character success thread, Pika earned less than PT as of recent.

:phone:
That's because Reflex played constantly for at least $100 pay-out for the past year or so in ASL Seasons 1 and 2 in addition to anything he won in Georgia or traveling farther. Your money earned from PT is going to be an outlier.


Note: Wario and Pokemon Trainer are very likely outliers, because TheReflexWonder has literally been the only source of significant income for these two characters.
I picked PT in a HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION to make it clear that I was speaking about a HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION because of how INCREDIBLY UNREALISTIC the statement was.

 

Seagull Joe

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:popo: beats :wolf: +1 in theory, but results indicate the matchup is even. I'd think the stages allowed make the matchup either +1 or even. Japan stages make it +1. Apex rules make it even. My opinions are solely based on an Apex stage ruleset. I don't care for the japanese only stages.

:018:

:phone:
 

T-block

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Wow people blew things way out of proportion in response to what is Gheb simply saying "I don't think Pikachu is top tier."

Xiroey's comparison of Pikachu and PT was funny and illustrates well that the dollar sign next to a character shouldn't be given much weight when trying to rank the characters.
 

ぱみゅ

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Wow people blew things way out of proportion in response to what is Gheb simply saying "I don't think Pikachu is top tier."

Xiroey's comparison of Pikachu and PT was funny and illustrates well that the dollar sign next to a character shouldn't be given much weight when trying to rank the characters.
Silly americans and their ideas of making money important for everything.
 
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What the tier list threat taught me

1. results don't matter as much as what you feel inside
2. wolf doesn't lose to anyone, and even beats most characters that can infinite him
3. when looking for an accurate view of a character's capabilities, always consult japan's on-the-fly tier list, unless it's pikachu, then then we should select the mean number between gheb's opinion and japan
4. lucas is mid tier when mekos releases his true power and goes super-saiyan
5. people still think sheik is good for some reason
 

da K.I.D.

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What the tier list threat taught me

1. results don't matter as much as what you feel inside
2. wolf doesn't lose to anyone, and even beats most characters that can infinite him
3. when looking for an accurate view of a character's capabilities, always consult japan's on-the-fly tier list, unless it's pikachu, then then we should select the mean number between gheb's opinion and japan
4. lucas is mid tier when mekos releases his true power and goes super-saiyan
5. people still think sheik is good for some reason
Everything i ever needed to know about brawl, i learned about from the tier list.

:phone:
 

TheReflexWonder

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What the tier list threat taught me

1. results don't matter as much as what you feel inside
2. wolf doesn't lose to anyone, and even beats most characters that can infinite him
3. when looking for an accurate view of a character's capabilities, always consult japan's on-the-fly tier list, unless it's pikachu, then then we should select the mean number between gheb's opinion and japan
4. lucas is mid tier when mekos releases his true power and goes super-saiyan
5. people still think sheik is good for some reason
I laughed.

Also, Sheik is good!

SCARYLINEBACKERFIFTYNIIIIIIIINE

I legitimately enjoy saying that tag out loud, just like that.
 

da K.I.D.

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Yo is that what the lb stands for, cus real talk, ed looks like a straight up linebacker. Like Brian Urlacher or something. Lol

:phone:
 

Judo777

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Ok to explain the hard read thing. You cant just hit falco out of phantasm lol the first like 1/3 of it is invincible. So you have this annoying game where if you are outside his 1/3 range you cant reliably make it to him to punish a laser, and if you are close enough to punish a laser ur probably within the 1/3 distance where his phantasm is completely safe (you have to block and then cannot punish, or spotdodge and then not punish). This is like ideal playing ofc but the only real way to punish is to like limbo the distance (which isn't like a small distance either its a relatively large middle ground) then call him like way in advance on when he phantasms or like sneak in a hit when he underestimates ur punish range. Like if the falco has great reaction time and knows the spacing like you have to trick him hard to catch him. This applys to most characters (not all obv). Thats all i meant.

Btw because Lasers have no lag its nigh impossible to trap him with needles and you have to throw them early enough to catch him before he lands but good reaction time can actually avoid this. And after we use 1 full charge we wont get another for a while and trading a needle for a laser works out better for him (we have alot of lag).

As far as the MU goes or the tilt in general. Like for real some people think its impossible to tilt lock Falco to death. The order of tilt difficulty is Fox, Wolf, Falco.

Fox is easy and nothing special we will consider him the default. Wolf is actually about the same as Fox with 2 major bonuses. One he has a REALLY good escape option if we mess up (his shine is pretty insane and big most importantly) this means not only do we have to never let him leave hitstun during the tilt lock but we cant even end as soon as we might want because he has to be at the top of sheiks fingers for the usmash or his shine will come out before our usmash does (essentially he has to get hit with the earliest hitbox of usmash). The second and more obvious bonus is hes heavier. Meaning we have to do the lock longer giving us more chance to mess up. With good DI (Kain will be my example) every time I ftilt locked Kain he forced me to turn around (you have to turn around the tilt lock to maintain or they will fall behind cause they DI behind you) and average of 12 times everytime. These are buffered turn around tilts which can be hard to do 12 times in a row. Outside of that Wolf is pretty standard.

Falco is another thing entirely. Falco doesn't have wolfs weight or his shine which is good for us. But for reasons i will never understand he doesnt FF the same way. Once you reach the 70%ish mark Falco begins to go very high above sheik in the ftilt. So much so that if we continue he will cease getting hit by the ftilts at all. So we have to compensate for this and intentionally delay our ftilts. Well this becomes very hard. Because now instead of just doing the ftilts as fast as possible (not sure if they are actually buffered or not but we have the IASA frames down) we have to actually time them. And ftilt already doesnt have but a few frames of advantage leeway for the lock but now we are diminshing that number even more. So instead of having like 4-6 frames advantage with the startup factored in we are now hitting like 2 or 3 (not exact numbers i dont remember) frames of leeway for our lock.

Falco is still heavier than fox so we need to keep him in it til like 105ish and if the falco is DIing properly we may still have to turn it around 8 times or so. So while we are tilting him we have several things going through our mind. We are watching the percents, watching his DI, watching his height, focusing on buffering the turn arounds (or NOT buffering them if hes too high), and adjusting our timing for his height. Like its really hard to kill him in 1 ftilt.

As far as the MU like i dont have a ton of experience in the MU but I have played it quite a bit. Played against Shugo (got wrecked), played against some other Falcos (gimr, ryker, clowsui just to name a few) I just dont feel like its quite on an even playing field. Like its really close and I could be wrong but it feels like he has an edge.

We have lots of cool things we can do, crouch under lasers to relieve pressure, needles to give him something to watch out for, real solid gimp game, comparable frame data, and a scary punish for a hard read SHL, and then the possible 30-death ftilt. But his camp game is better, his close game is (IMO) just as good (his frame data is like just as good as ours), his kill power better, his offstage game not much worse (if at all), his 0-60 (sometimes) throw combos/setups (comparable to our 30-death considering i drop it like 70% of the time if they are DIing right).

Like for real Falco is just really good.

Goodness I didn't mean to write an essay, sorry guys.
 
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Ok to explain the hard read thing. You cant just hit falco out of phantasm lol the first like 1/3 of it is invincible. So you have this annoying game where if you are outside his 1/3 range you cant reliably make it to him to punish a laser, and if you are close enough to punish a laser ur probably within the 1/3 distance where his phantasm is completely safe (you have to block and then cannot punish, or spotdodge and then not punish). This is like ideal playing ofc but the only real way to punish is to like limbo the distance (which isn't like a small distance either its a relatively large middle ground) then call him like way in advance on when he phantasms or like sneak in a hit when he underestimates ur punish range. Like if the falco has great reaction time and knows the spacing like you have to trick him hard to catch him. This applys to most characters (not all obv). Thats all i meant.
Well, to be more exact, its not invincible like when you comeback from being killed. And its not invincible like some character's start-up in their UpB. There is no invincibility or intangibility at all. Falco's hurtbox just transports a huge *** distance in one frame from start-up lag, to the next frame. Its the next 2 frames after this that his teleporting distance is severely shortened making it easier to aim at him because his hurtbox's start to over lap a bit in those few ending frames when he is moving. So, its a series of disappears and reappears in different locations. But, for all purposes, if spaced correctly, it is difficult to punish if falco can space that phantasm distance for the first movement he goes through.

Also, there is plenty of time to punish after you shield. Its only harder to punish if you let Falco's phantasm put distance between you. The whole move of phantasm including jump squat lag on the ground is about 60 frames. The hitboxes end about half way through. So, you get about half a second to punish Falco. Out of 7 frames shield drop and one frame to dash. Most characters can reliably dash attack, dacus, or dash grab Falco on reaction. Only, I would say its hard on reaction because you have to worry about a lot of stuff when falco is upclose.

Which brings me to a main point about falco himself. Yes, he has many things which are difficult to punish and when all combined together, he is a great character because he has so many good options from a single point such as standing, short hop, after a laser, or after a jab.
 

Luco

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Well I don't remember to many things about this MU,but didn't Bowser have a GR on Lucas for some attack?
I've found that certain button-mashing combinations increase my chances of an air-wise release. He still has things on us there but I think it's a bit better, not least because he can't grab us again. Still, Z'zgashi had the right of it pretty much.

(Sorry to bring this up again, it's been ages since I was last on the boards).

Oh, by the by, I seem to recall that even with the first 1/3 of Falco's sideB being invincible, some characters can reflect him, like Pit and Mario. Well, not entirely sure about pit but i've done it with mario (and won the game because of it: He did it next to the walk-off on the second stage of castle siege and it killed him lol).
 

Judo777

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Well, to be more exact, its not invincible like when you comeback from being killed. And its not invincible like some character's start-up in their UpB. There is no invincibility or intangibility at all. Falco's hurtbox just transports a huge *** distance in one frame from start-up lag, to the next frame. Its the next 2 frames after this that his teleporting distance is severely shortened making it easier to aim at him because his hurtbox's start to over lap a bit in those few ending frames when he is moving. So, its a series of disappears and reappears in different locations. But, for all purposes, if spaced correctly, it is difficult to punish if falco can space that phantasm distance for the first movement he goes through.

Also, there is plenty of time to punish after you shield. Its only harder to punish if you let Falco's phantasm put distance between you. The whole move of phantasm including jump squat lag on the ground is about 60 frames. The hitboxes end about half way through. So, you get about half a second to punish Falco. Out of 7 frames shield drop and one frame to dash. Most characters can reliably dash attack, dacus, or dash grab Falco on reaction. Only, I would say its hard on reaction because you have to worry about a lot of stuff when falco is upclose.

Which brings me to a main point about falco himself. Yes, he has many things which are difficult to punish and when all combined together, he is a great character because he has so many good options from a single point such as standing, short hop, after a laser, or after a jab.
Jump squat when he lives the ground? Because he doesn't phantasm until after that. So you cant start punishing until he does the phantasm. So he does the phantasm, no clue how many frames after (ill take 60 or 56 if you were counting jump squat, tho that seems like a whole lot). You block, but dont get hit til at least frame 17. Thats 39 frames left. Shield drop assuming there is no shield push, 32 frames. Buffer a dash for 1 frame. Sheiks DA comes out frame 7 i believe. That gives 25 frames. 10 frames for reaction that give 15 frames. Now comes the last problem. Falcos phantasm is way longer than just Sheiks DA (Sheiks DA is one of the longer DA's in the game for how fast it is). You cant just buffer a turn around DA you will wind up farther than Falcos max jab length away. You have to run a bit first. And one setp of a dash is around 15 frames as is. And its probably a step and a half away before we can DA. Like legit if hes in the first 1/3 its not very reasonable to punish.

Btw shield push probably add like 5 frames or so. Idk man it doesnt seem very reliable. Like in smash it takes SOOOO many frames to run. Distance is the safest thing in the game. Marth fair is unsafe on block, but no one can get that far that fast. Also when you get ur DA blocked you eat fsmashes.
 

Grizzlpaw

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That's because Reflex played constantly for at least $100 pay-out for the past year or so in ASL Seasons 1 and 2 in addition to anything he won in Georgia or traveling farther. Your money earned from PT is going to be an outlier.



tumblr_lwg5nqw2ta1qzjix8.gif[/img]


Even if Relfex did play constantly, consider that there are few other serious PT mains out there (Though I admit Zeta has quite a solid Charizard).

Imagine if Diddy were believed bottom tier, and had only ADHD as his primary source of winnings. Would the winnings compare?

The point i'm trying to make is PT is underreped. As a result, we don't have enough skilled players around to help develop tge charachter and rethink his MU's.

Whose to say Charizard is bad vs GaW. We believe it so becausd thr top PT mains out there have troublr with the MU.

We need people who think differently, act differently, and react differently to help contribute to the character.

Reflex is very skilled, I'll admit, but he has a habit of relying too strongly on squirtle. Sqyirtle is believed to have the best MU's becausr Reflex proved squirt's usefullness.

You see where I'm going with this?

Sorry for the long post... I just feel very strongly this.



:phone:
 

DMG

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I mean, Squirtle kinda IS the only great pokemon on that squad lol. Heck he'd be better off going solo, stripping away fatigue.
 

Grizzlpaw

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Thats the best observation we can make based on the data we have to work with.

But who's to say the data is perfect?

The metagame will never progress if people are afraid too challenge popular opinion.

:phone:
 

#HBC | Scary

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Real Talk, just how it is.

That's a whole lot of info to take in about phantasm and punishing it.

I think my only contribution to the Falco/Sheik thingy is Falco's Jab >>>> Sheik as a whole. Judo, have you explored possibilities with the Chain on Falco's recovery options or against phantasm in general. Just a thought I had spontaneously.
 

T-block

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SFP's 4885 was a quality post lol

Xiroey, we've been there. I know there was a time when I thought "man, everyone underrates ivysaur and charizard - i'm gonna unlock their true power", but the reality is that there are concretely identifiable strengths and weaknesses for each pokemon that make things the way they are. It's not that we only have a few good players and they all happen to favour Squirtle so the other two don't get a chance - it's that they favour Squirtle because he is simply a stronger character than the other two.

That's not to say that Squirtle is better in all situations, or that he doesn't have his own weaknesses, but you're being incredibly naive.
 

TheReflexWonder

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My Squirtle isn't very good compared to his "potential" because I have bad tech skill. I get by with great fundamentals, being really smart, and people not knowing the matchup.

My Ivysaur is probably most developed of the three, but, it's still Ivysaur.

My Charizard is my worst, mostly because I feel he's a very boring, linear character and he's really abusable in the air.

If there's any potential in PT, it's in the unused Squirtle ATs. He hasn't been abused nearly enough with shellshift/shellstalling nuances and True Hydroplaning. If someone ever mastered those things, he'd be a better character overall, and certainly a better Squirtle than I am.
 

#HBC | Joker

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It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize Squirtle is the best one. When Brawl first came out, and I tried out PT, I could immediately tell that Squirtle was far superior. Believe me, I wanted it to be Charizard (because charmander was my favorite starter in Red/Blue), but that just isn't the case. Any time I would pick PT, I would just switch back to squirtle every time I died, because I didn't know anything about fatigue. Even without giving him any time to recover, he was still better, and it isn't because my playstyle caters to Squirtle, either. My best character was Ike back then. Nothing like Squirtle, obviously.

I hadn't looked up MU stuff or PT guides to figure it out, so it isn't some popular opinion that had been ingrained in my brain. It's just... obvious that Squirtle is best.
 

Luigi player

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Wow people blew things way out of proportion in response to what is Gheb simply saying "I don't think Pikachu is top tier."

Xiroey's comparison of Pikachu and PT was funny and illustrates well that the dollar sign next to a character shouldn't be given much weight when trying to rank the characters.
Well we all know Esam is only placing that well because of ICs. :smirk:

But this thread is about the tier list in the first post.... saying Pikachu is top tier is true in this thread, because this thread operates under that list.

You can disagree and think Pikachu should be moved elsewhere.

But.

Pikachu is still for all intents and purposes top tier.

That's how discussion actually happens. You can't just expect people to know everyone else's personal tier list. That's ****ing dumb.

/justsayin'.
He didn't say it but it was obvious what he's talking about anyway. This thread is for tierlist discussion, yes. Partially about the tierlist in the first post. But of course you can talk about what can/could/should be changed etc.

What?

Dude, they don't just throw darts at a dartboard to determine what is and what isn't top tier. They come to that conclusion threw results and experience. Pikachu mains of the US have put in enough work to make pikachu what he is today. Sure his hitbox's and mobility don't change, but the way players utilize them do.

My main lucario's pretty far down in the japanese tier list in comparison to ours. Not because he's a bad character, but because they didn't put in as much work as the US did with this character, ya know? But I understand that. Like damn, look at where Fox and Pit are there!

Hell, i'm sure if more people put work into ganondorf even he'd rise a bit. Sonic was considered super garbage before Espy and the other sonic mains aspired to raise him up the tierlist. We decide how far we want to take these characters. Of course I ain't saying we can make ganon top tier, but ey, we do have some effect on how good a character is.
Tiers are set in stone theoretically once the game is finished and put on the market. They don't gain stuff or anything. Everything is already in the game. It's just people might not know about stuff etc so it changes around.


The tierlist from the BBR is a list that will always change over time since we gather more information from tourney results/MUs/theorie/differencesfromnewrulesets/maybenewthingsarediscoveredlol...

The MU chart still has a long way to go too...
 

Grizzlpaw

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So many old fashioned thinkers here.
It's sad.

it's been said that "the nail that sticks up gets hammered down."

Fine, hammer away. But just know that whats truly naive is believing that ant aspect of the metagame has progressed as far as it will go. While some things will probably never change (squirtle isn't going to sprout wings any time soon) who's to say that Charizard or Ivysaur won't someday break at least low mid status.

It's unlikely now since brawl is old and dying. And veteran brawlerd are becoming like old men and women, firm in set in their beliefs.

But I can't help but wonder how much different the tier list would look if more brawlers were willing to take a chance.

:006:
But, I suppose it' as just a game. Here I am trying to apply my life philosophy to a piece of programming.

Its silly really.

:phone:
 

#HBC | Joker

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I don't think it's unthinkable that we'll someday discover that Charizard and Ivysaur are better than we currently think they are, I just think it's highly unlikely that we'll find out that they're somehow better than Squirtle. There are matchups where they are better than squirtle, certainly, but overall as characters, squirtle is a pretty clear frontrunner.
 
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Agreed with Reflex... the day.. like, Salem takes up PT... ugh I don't even want to think about it. Squirtle already does awful things to my blood pressure.
 

T-block

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So many old fashioned thinkers here.
It's sad.

it's been said that "the nail that sticks up gets hammered down."

Fine, hammer away. But just know that whats truly naive is believing that ant aspect of the metagame has progressed as far as it will go. While some things will probably never change (squirtle isn't going to sprout wings any time soon) who's to say that Charizard or Ivysaur won't someday break at least low mid status.

It's unlikely now since brawl is old and dying. And veteran brawlerd are becoming like old men and women, firm in set in their beliefs.

But I can't help but wonder how much different the tier list would look if more brawlers were willing to take a chance.

:006:
But, I suppose it' as just a game. Here I am trying to apply my life philosophy to a piece of programming.

Its silly really.

:phone:
lol quit playing the victim. Why are you making things so dramatic?

Nobody's saying that Ivysaur or Charizard have reached the peak of their metagame. Hell, it's not even accurate to say that PT players aren't giving Ivysaur and Charizard a chance - where are you even getting that from? You think we actually approach the character with the mindset "screw the other two, i'll just work on squirtle"? Nobody who seriously plays the character actually thinks that way -_-
 

Ishiey

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Reflex, there are some awesome Charizard players out there. If you had Mata's Charizard, I don't even want to think about the destruction that would occur lol. Agreed that Squirtle's underused/underdeveloped ATs have the most potential to help PT as a whole though.

When is BBR v8 coming out
like seriously? Kirby, Luigi, Yoshi, Pit are too low imo.
We won't start working on the next tier list until the next MU chart is done. We typically run on a ~9 month schedule with tier lists, but it'll probably be a longer wait this time around, unfortunately.

When the hecks the next MU chart coming out is what I wanna know.
Man, we need to get the boards together and discuss MU's again. That things outdated beyond belief.
It all depends on how effective the panels end up being... late March is a decent bet imo (for when the actual chart will be released, which means work will start in December or something lol)

So many people have issues with the MU chart, but that thing is freakin' impossible to run properly :/ like, words can't even describe the pain. It's a miracle v2 came out as well as it did overall in the first place X_x

EDIT: too lazy to go back and comment much on Sheik/Wolf stuff, but ty to people who elaborated :p idk, it's hard to judge such a MU where one factor can completely turn the tide, but is far from guaranteed to occur.

:059:
 

Myollnir

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I master every technique with :squirtle: 's shellshifting and honestly, they're not THAT useful (I'm bad though so if someone like Reflex starts using them, maybe I'll realize that they're good options).

Hydrojab is okay if you want to go through your opponent. You can pick up items as well.

Hydrograb is really good : at low %, free U-tilt/anything. At high %, you're closer to the edge so you can kill with D-throw.

F-smash is really bad unless I have a read.

U-smash is... okay, I guess.

D-smash is really good. At low %, you have some nice follow ups ; at mid %, it's a good jab lock setup ; at high %, it kills quite early due to the horizontal trajectory (roughly the same as :popo: 's D-tilt ).
It lasts quite a long time so you can beat spotdodges.

When you crawl dash after a shellshift, you can slide backwards. This can be useful if you want to retreat.

You can also use hydrostalling to delay your attacks.

All these things are new options, but they're not extremely good. They're better on paper, unfortunately.

Oh and as for true hydroplanning, its usefulness depends of what you do after! :p
 

NickRiddle

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I remember Kith used to do everything, and at the time I thought his Squirtle was better than Reflex's.
He also nair spike killed me with Ivysaur, and bair spike killed me with Zard.
Kith for #1 PT.
 

T-block

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True hydroplane to f-tilt is pretty damn useful for spacing I find.

I really need to learn how to hydrostall effectively =x I think there's some untapped potential there.
 

T-block

B2B TST
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You can make Squirtle stay in place in his shell for about half a second. I believe you can then dash out of it as usual, or (more importantly) do a full hydrograb out of a stall.

Haven't explored it nearly as much as I would have liked, unfortunately.
 

Grizzlpaw

Rawr~ ♪
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lol quit playing the victim. Why are you making things so dramatic?

Nobody's saying that Ivysaur or Charizard have reached the peak of their metagame. Hell, it's not even accurate to say that PT players aren't giving Ivysaur and Charizard a chance - where are you even getting that from? You think we actually approach the character with the mindset "screw the other two, i'll just work on squirtle"? Nobody who seriously plays the character actually thinks that way -_-
Sigh... It's debate club all over again.

Proffesor would always say "don't use emotions in your argument. Don't use emotions in your argument"

You think it'd sink in by now.
My fault. Got carried away (again). That why I try to avoid passionate debates lol.

Well, my current embarrasment asside I've actually been wondering about hydro techs myself.

Personally, I really like hydro Dsmash as well.
Hydrograb sounds really useful, but c~stick is faulty with forward and back.

I've never really gotten seriously.punished by tossing out Hydro Dsmash, unless I get overly reckless.

Not sure to reserve it for a kill or to use as utility.

:phone:
 
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