Official BBR Tier List v7

[Nidtendofreak]

I've more or less stopped caring about getting the exact frame data for most things. I call things how I see them like I did for various tier list placements. Funny enough, I got most of those tier list placements correct. I've been in depth before, I've been general before: I ended up with the same results, except one is a whole lot quicker. I'd rather not go back to spending an hour digging up info for a post, studying videos for minor things when I can get the same general result by just speaking my mind. At the same time, you'll notice I rarely argue against things heavily based in frame data anymore.

MK has more range, more practical methods of damage, more practical maneuverability between jump speed, multiple jumps, and nado/other specials, more practical quick moves. I don't care if Mario technically does 2% (random number to prove my point) more damage overall in his moveset: in top level MK vs top level Mario, Mario is going to be constantly behind in damage. He'll tack on some decent damage early on when MK's % is low and Mario lands a jab or a throw, but he's going to be struggling the whole time. I don't care if Mario moves faster in the air: his range issue is going to cut too heavily into that advantage. Yes I'm aware Mario's Usmash is fairly decent, and I know he's not terrible at landing Fsmashes, MK is still going to have an easier time killing when the time comes. Etc, etc.

I'll stick to mostly general arguing, thank you very much. Keeps my blood pressure lower that way. You should see me on sites where I care to the point that I'm still arguing like I used to around here years ago.

 

[Orion*]

I've more or less stopped caring about getting the exact frame data for most things. I call things how I see them like I did for various tier list placements.

How you "see" something, and what it is is two completely different things. Seeing is subjective, hard facts aren't. A result matters, and you can make a post like Grims where he just states his opinion. But don't try to laugh off the fact that you where acting like a *** and stating facts that aren't facts.

Funny enough, I got most of those tier list placements correct.

Do you want to cookie?

I've been in depth before, I've been general before: I ended up with the same results, except one is a whole lot quicker.

Ironically you argue against being general in terms of MU numbers, despite the result being quicker, and the generally the same. If you are going to argue it's not generally the same, then you are ****ting on what you posted above because some things may produce generally similar results, but details will prove that this isn't always the case.

I'd rather not go back to spending an hour digging up info for a post, studying videos for minor things when I can get the same general result by just speaking my mind. At the same time, you'll notice I rarely argue against things heavily based in frame data anymore.

You didn't just speak your mind, you just spewed garbage that is half right.

I'll stick to mostly general arguing, thank you very much. Keeps my blood pressure lower that way. You should see me on sites where I care to the point that I'm still arguing like I used to around here years ago.

Your arguments while in practice may have been in a broad/general topic, where very specific, but not detailed. They where also wrong.

What you care and don't care about essentially doesn't matter in terms of the discussion. For example I care about eating oreos and milk. It doesn't really provide you, or this board with any sort of value in any way though, unless shaya, ish or marc want to buy me some.

 

[DMG]

It provides me with a lot of value.

Cause I bet you don't even dunk your oreos in the milk.

 

[DEHF]

It provides me with a lot of value.

Cause I bet you don't even dunk your oreos in the milk.

I does that **** literally and figuratively.

Finally, someone who speaks the truth. I'm so ****ing hype right now, I feel like breaking everything in sight and slam ****ing dunking some oreos in a gallon of milk.

 

[Judo777]

Judo would you venture to say if Sheiks' dash attack had just a centimeter of extra range she'd be a lot better? I can't help but notice that Sheik has a bit of trouble punishing horizontally unless dacus will come out fast enough to punish the lag (not usually unless it was a very laggy landing).

It's a shame because a move like Sheik's dash attack was basically made to punish stuff, it just has that deceptively poor range that makes it tough to use against great characters,

I actually dont feel this way at all lol. I feel like Sheiks DA has very good range and actually is one of the best moves in the entire game at punishing things horizontally. Like maybe I just am more comfortable with Sheik and so I know how to work around things but I feel like any move that can reliably punish anything but a perfectly spaced completely retreated marth fair (maybe it doesnt have to be that perfect but I do punish it quite a bit) is pretty great lol. Like not trying to say ur wrong but I actually feel quite the opposite is all

@ Luigi Player Hoping ur opponent doesnt read it isn't a big deal lol. I have to hope my opponent doesnt read it everytime i do anything and everything. And Falcos you have to read pretty hard. It does have some startup but not enough to reliably react to much less move ur character in range to stuff it early.

@Laem sheik IS one of the best characters at punishing it I'll agree, she is IMO one of the best chars in the game at punishing everything. And the fact that I'm saying its not very reliable is a decent illustration of how broke phantasm is. Like for real Sheik shouldn't be punishing that stuff and if she is doing it often you are either being really REALLY predictable or doing it wrong.

 

[Ishiey]

I does that **** literally and figuratively.

Finally, someone who speaks the truth. I'm so ****ing hype right now, I feel like breaking everything in sight and slam ****ing dunking some oreos in a gallon of milk.

Well then. Looks like there's no other choice. brb buying oreos and milk for a BBR party to boost morale and productivity.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I've more or less stopped caring about getting the exact frame data for most things.

I'll stick to mostly general arguing, thank you very much. Keeps my blood pressure lower that way. You should see me on sites where I care to the point that I'm still arguing like I used to around here years ago.

Frame data is useful for one thing, and one thing only as I have seen it. And, that purpose is to help you see what is possible, and what is not possible in this game. Or, you apply some logic and reason to what you found out and see how reliable something might be.

In example, Judo gives me a statement that phantasm seems near impossible to beat. Whether he truly believed that I do not know. But, I did the frame data spiel and now we both know that Falco could be punished for using phantasm if you can react to it by shielding. You go from uncertain to certain and you now have a target goal: always be able to punish phantasm if I shield it.

@Mario Discussion: Is Mario's SH fireball reliably safe if done while moving backwards?

In the few matches I had with a mario, walk/dash into powershield and finishing with something like a jab or a fast tilt pretty much overpowers Mario's attempts to push forward in a short hop and use his fire balls. Although, retreating fireballs were a bit more annoying to deal with since I have to stop to powershield, but I am no where near mario to hit him. So, it sort of seems to evolve into a prediction game. if I advanced with dash attack, he might keep shielding or spot dodge. If I stood in shield, he might be planning on walking up to grab, or Fsmash to pull away and then push forward. All sorts of mix-ups if either side tried predicting or reading after a powershield or fireball.

Well then. Looks like there's no other choice. brb buying oreos and milk for a BBR party to boost morale and productivity.

This will boost your morale so much in anything if you eat one.

 

[GOofyGV]

bowser gets camped way to easy and his moves in general are kinda slow as well.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Bowser just takes up a disproportionate amount of space compared to what he covers with his attacks. That, and hes really linear and obvious

 

[-LzR-]

And to add the fact that he is really weak for a super heavy weight. His moves really aren't that powerful, especially the ones that actually hit.

 

[GOofyGV]

he just can't land mover properly he is way to big and slow because of it even if his mobility is not that bad and he gets camped by almost everyone.
I honestly think he should drop 1 spot more

 

[Judo777]

Frame data is useful for one thing, and one thing only as I have seen it. And, that purpose is to help you see what is possible, and what is not possible in this game. Or, you apply some logic and reason to what you found out and see how reliable something might be.

In example, Judo gives me a statement that phantasm seems near impossible to beat. Whether he truly believed that I do not know. But, I did the frame data spiel and now we both know that Falco could be punished for using phantasm if you can react to it by shielding. You go from uncertain to certain and you now have a target goal: always be able to punish phantasm if I shield it.

@Mario Discussion: Is Mario's SH fireball reliably safe if done while moving backwards?

In the few matches I had with a mario, walk/dash into powershield and finishing with something like a jab or a fast tilt pretty much overpowers Mario's attempts to push forward in a short hop and use his fire balls. Although, retreating fireballs were a bit more annoying to deal with since I have to stop to powershield, but I am no where near mario to hit him. So, it sort of seems to evolve into a prediction game. if I advanced with dash attack, he might keep shielding or spot dodge. If I stood in shield, he might be planning on walking up to grab, or Fsmash to pull away and then push forward. All sorts of mix-ups if either side tried predicting or reading after a powershield or fireball.

This will boost your morale so much in anything if you eat one.

Wait. I thought we concluded you couldn't??? You said you have 5 frames of leeway if everything is buffered. And then I pointed out that you cannot buffer everything because DA won't reach..... You have to take about a step for the dash which is WAY more than 5 frames.

This is obv at the range where you cant hit him (first 1/3)

 

[GOofyGV]

is ther going to come a new list soon because I think that the current one is outdated allready.
the metagame is devoloping so fast last few months O_o

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

This keeps being discussed when I think its finished lol Anyway, distance is the only problem which is not that big of a deal when I think about a match. Look at "this". From this video, if you were standing at about center stage, this is the distance I would imagine a Falco would want to phantasm. If too close, he could get hit in start-up lag. So, he wants to put distance between you and Sheik before starting, and this puts him closer to sheik in his ending lag. Being about mid way in the phantasm when shielding is close enough to get a dash attack off. Even if not at the right spacing, DACUS is still an option to consider for surprise as a punish depending upon what Falco does after a phantasm.

I am not even worried about execution time really. This to me seems like something you could practice and eventually get put down as muscle memory. There is 1/3 of a second in start-up lag from his jump into sideB. This is enough reaction time on your part to get ready to perform the punish with dash attack. There is even a buffer period when you include that small segment where you are locked in shield. Even if you do something a bit long, 5 frames of leeway is a huge chuck of time with practice.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

How long is a Frame?

 

[da K.I.D.]

It depends on the game.

Most fighting games (smash included) run at 60 frames per second. Which means that a frame in this game is 1/60th of a second

 

[Ayce God]

Esam thought Pikachu Falco was +3 for Pikachu. After we played our mm at SKTAR he changed his opinion to +2.

so you loss 3-1 ?

 

[Lukingordex]

so you loss 3-1 ?

 

[PMysterious]

Can I please say that Jigglypuff can be a little higher than what it is now?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Some People told me they think jiggs is worse than Ganon.

 

[Lukingordex]

Ganon > MK > Jigglypuff > Captain Falcon

 

[#HBC | J]

I think Jiggs is perfect where she is. Her and Link could switch and it wouldn't be that big of a deal. I definitely feel Falcon is better than her but she isn't the worst character.

 

[Lukingordex]

Jiggly should never switch with Link,she's better,better MUs in general and stuff.

 

[#HBC | J]

Look I love Jiggs to death and want her to do better but as it stands in the MU chart for now, Link has better MUs than Jiggs. I don't know whether they hold stock but yeah.

-4:
-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:


(ordered)
-4:
-3: |
-2: | |
-1: |
0: |
2:

Generally Link has better MUs, but in terms of character wise they both are not that good. Jiggs and Link are pretty even in terms of their tier placement.

 

[Lukingordex]

You believe 100% in the MU chart?

 

[BJN39]

You believe 100% in the MU chart?

This made me lol
I think no one believes 100% in the MU chart.

 

[#HBC | J]

You believe 100% in the MU chart?

Haha no, not at all. That's actually really funny you ask me that...

But what do you feel is wrong about Link vs. Jiggs. I mean, as an in-depth opinion/reason as to why you feel Jiggs>Link? I was just quoting the MU chart because you mentioned it. But I am intrigued to your opinion.

 

[Lukingordex]

Link is ugly,Jiggly is cute,that's why.

 

[| Big D |]

Jigglypuff looks like a space alien from outer space.

 

[Lukingordex]

Jigglypuff looks like a space alien from outer space.

Space Aliens have not been discovered yet,the news you readed is fake.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Puff doesn't lose -3 to all those characters, half are -2.
Likewise for the -2s, most are -1s or even. That is the really key thing.

Marth, Zero Suit Samus, Diddy Kong, Lucas, Peach, Bowser, Dedede and Ice Climbers have no business being that bad for her.

Anyone who thinks Puff is worse than the character who are currently below her are delusional, and no-doubt caught up in 08 Puff metagame were you just spam fair deep into people's shields and hope the opponent ****s up.

Her position is fine for now, considering results, but I can see her rising above Falcon and Bowser at some point.

 

[Lukingordex]

Puff doesn't lose -3 to all those characters, half are -2.
Likewise for the -2s, most are -1s or even. That is the really key thing.

Marth, Zero Suit Samus, Diddy Kong, Lucas, Peach, Bowser, Dedede and Ice Climbers have no business being that bad for her.

Anyone who thinks Puff is worse than the character who are currently below her are delusional, and no-doubt caught up in 08 Puff metagame were you just spam fair deep into people's shields and hope the opponent ****s up.

Her position is fine for now, considering results, but I can see her rising above Falcon and Bowser at some point.

Maybe above Captain Falcon,but not above Bowser.

Only Bowser is really -1 on your List.

ZSS,Diddy,Lucas,Peach and ICs are all -2.

Marth and D3 are -3.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If I explain why that's wrong, it's theory-craft.
If I post videos to back me up, "my opponents are bad".
If I just say you're wrong and leave it at that, my opinion is worthless.

So you can believe whatever you'd like to believe.

 

[Shaya]

Hence you should stop posting grim :X

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Hence why I said "So you can believe whatever you'd like to believe."

If only you'd take the same message on board and trust ESAM on the Pika/Marth MU, instead of flaunting flawed Aussie logic.

 

[Shaya]

Sounds like salt considering how I've done against dem Merican pikas.

I was only stating the conclusion to your points

 

[Lukingordex]

If I explain why that's wrong, it's theory-craft.
If I post videos to back me up, "my opponents are bad".
If I just say you're wrong and leave it at that, my opinion is worthless.

So you can believe whatever you'd like to believe.

lulz

You should say it to Doc King,not to me.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'd have more luck talking to a potato.

 

[Pitzer]

fool you look like pitzer in real life, and thats not a complement.

anyways, its too tedious to go back and find something to call you out on, so Ill just wait until the next time it happens and do it then.

wtf bro lol

 

[da K.I.D.]

Lol from deep.

You do look like a goofball tho =P