Official BBR Tier List v7

[Judo777]

This keeps being discussed when I think its finished lol Anyway, distance is the only problem which is not that big of a deal when I think about a match. Look at "this". From this video, if you were standing at about center stage, this is the distance I would imagine a Falco would want to phantasm. If too close, he could get hit in start-up lag. So, he wants to put distance between you and Sheik before starting, and this puts him closer to sheik in his ending lag. Being about mid way in the phantasm when shielding is close enough to get a dash attack off. Even if not at the right spacing, DACUS is still an option to consider for surprise as a punish depending upon what Falco does after a phantasm.

I am not even worried about execution time really. This to me seems like something you could practice and eventually get put down as muscle memory. There is 1/3 of a second in start-up lag from his jump into sideB. This is enough reaction time on your part to get ready to perform the punish with dash attack. There is even a buffer period when you include that small segment where you are locked in shield. Even if you do something a bit long, 5 frames of leeway is a huge chuck of time with practice.

No i actually think center stage is barely to far away actually. He doesn't have to worry about getting hit in startup because he shoots a laser before he does it. Like he shoots the low laser of the SHDL then lands and does this. Like he is always covering his phantasm with a laser first. And you cant react to the jump squat frames because you cant be sure he is going to do it or just shoot another laser. Until the little "ping" happens you cant react to anything.

And no way on Earth can you DACUS this. DACUS is waaaayyyy too slow.

Lastly even if center stage is the correct distance for the clip you just showed. Where Falco ends up is way too far for an instant DA the other way. Like I said that would require and entire step while dashing to cover the distance. Like for real from what u are showing if 5 frames is all i get to make up the distance from where he ends and center stage (accounting for the range of DA) I'm gonna be like 10 or 12 frames too late.

 

[Orion*]

Puff doesn't lose -3 to all those characters, half are -2.
Likewise for the -2s, most are -1s or even. That is the really key thing.

Marth, Zero Suit Samus, Diddy Kong, Lucas, Peach, Bowser, Dedede and Ice Climbers have no business being that bad for her.

Anyone who thinks Puff is worse than the character who are currently below her are delusional, and no-doubt caught up in 08 Puff metagame were you just spam fair deep into people's shields and hope the opponent ****s up.

Her position is fine for now, considering results, but I can see her rising above Falcon and Bowser at some point.

It's kinda funny I honestly think Puffs MUs assuming a conservative stage list and a LGL are worse than where they are placed now.

There really aren't really any good puffs to be fair and the characters tools haven't really even been pushed to an extent that most others have. I could also see her going above falcon or bowser if there was someone willing to put in work, but I also think those characters including link, zelda and samus all have a similar problem in terms of proper representation, and just the fact that they are not good characters.

And no way on Earth can you DACUS this.

i see what you did there

 

[PMysterious]

I'm willing to. Jigglypuff is my main for a reason.

 

[Orion*]

Maining a character doesn't give you an objective ability to judge a characters viability

 

[Ove]

Jigglypuff is trash in Barwl. Die at too low % and doesn't have a good knock-out move. And why did they screw up Rest so badly? Anyway, a Jigglypuff without combos/viable mix-ups is weak and generally bad.

 

[Lukingordex]

She has a not bad knock-out move,but it's lagged as hell and rarely hits anyone.

 

[-LzR-]

It's ******** how it's actually weaker than several characters uncharged usmashes. Talk about a great risk reward ration, especially for such a light character. Gladly drillrest is an ok way to do and you'll pretty much never miss, but a good opponent won't fall for it. I miss the times I used to main Puff

 

[Orion*]

crossup dacus derp

 

[BJN39]

crossup dacus derp

Yeah! I was so surprised when I discovered Jiggz could DACUS.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It's kinda funny I honestly think Puffs MUs assuming a conservative stage list and a LGL are worse than where they are placed now.

There really aren't really any good puffs to be fair and the characters tools haven't really even been pushed to an extent that most others have. I could also see her going above falcon or bowser if there was someone willing to put in work, but I also think those characters including link, zelda and samus all have a similar problem in terms of proper representation, and just the fact that they are not good characters.

QFT

Jigglypuff is trash in Barwl. Die at too low % and doesn't have a good knock-out move. And why did they screw up Rest so badly? Anyway, a Jigglypuff without combos/viable mix-ups is weak and generally bad.

Puff is bad. Those are not really the reasons why, though.

crossup dacus derp

DACUS is balls imo - the hitbox doesn't come out very fast (so it requires extra prediction) and is small and she can be punished easily for missing.

 

[ViperGold42]

well I see the conversation hasn't changed.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Beat bad characters by constantly throwing out awesome hitboxes. You won't have to worry about spotdodges being read if you just use your superior weaponry.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

STOP

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JjxYGyfxBo

Power Rangers SNES OST for top tier

 

[Orion*]

DACUS is balls imo - the hitbox doesn't come out very fast (so it requires extra prediction) and is small and she can be punished easily for missing.

I wasn't being that serious, I don't think dacus is a move you can use without a hard read though lmao. It does have it's uses though, especially considering the fact that every tool jiggs can get she probably needs to use

 

[dettadeus]

The only time I've ever found a use for Jiggs' DACUS was punishing someone's landing when they recovered over the edge. And like once at low percent when my opponent did normal getup from the ledge and I think I got a shieldgrab off it or something dumb like that.

If someone doesn't know Jiggs has such a ridiculous DACUS then you can seriously catch someone off-guard with it... once. Then it basically stops working for surprises.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I like how everyone is saying Jiggs' dacus is terrible when puffster and mink land kills/mixups with it all the time. While its obv not the greatest move ever, you have to understand that, with Jiggs being the bad character she is, you dont have the greatest/safest options in general and you need to take advantage of whatever you can. Her dacus is the quickest gap closer she has (rollout, while it can move faster, takes much longer to come out so it can easily be seen coming) as well as being a ground based move, which people dont expect coming from an air based character, meaning it can catch people off guard quite frequently. While yes, its not safe and its not the best move damage or knockback wise, it can be a great mix up option for just straight up putting on damage, or picking up a kill at high percents.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Being an "okay" move for Puff = being terrible in general.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Puff = Terrible in general.

And her okay ground move is basically her best ground move.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Grab mother-****ing disagrees.

 

[PMC66]

Wolf for high tier

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Wolf for high tier

The issue is that the "borderline tier" Wolf is in right now is just all kinds of jank, it isn't a Wolf-specific issue though. Borderline tier is basically "high tier in japan or midwest+Peach."

How's this for top/high:

1. MK
2. Ice Climbers
3. Olimar, Snake, Diddy Kong, Falco

3. Marth/Zero Suit Samus, Wario
4. King Dedede, Toon Link/Pit
5. Lucario/Fox/Wolf/ROB

4 and 5 are really weird because they have such wildly varying success across regions depending on what characters are popular there... Fox and Pit have done OK in European and Japanese tournaments and Fox does well on the west coast but he usually needs a secondary. Wolf does well on Smashboards. Lucario is only in high tier anymore because I don't know.

Not really sure what to do with it. I'd probably move Lucario to mid tier.

 

[infiniteV115]

Lucario > DDD and Pit.

DDD and Pit suck.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Lucario > DDD and Pit.

DDD and Pit suck.

I totally agree, especially about Dedede :\

Too bad any mention of Dedede's utter mediocrity brings out hordes of guys to talk about how good it is to chaingrab Ike. I'm tired of debating the DDD issue so I just put him in the tier I knew everyone would want him to go to.

Dedede is mid tier, I don't care if he chaingrabs 75% of it.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

ZSS > Wario is a bit presumptuous.
And yeah, x3 agreement on the Dedede thing.

 

[DMG]

Dedede isn't mid tier though...

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I think ZSS is a slightly better bet as a solo main because of convenient match-ups mostly. Wario also has weird matchups with a bunch of mid tiers. He's good mechanically but I don't think the US or Japan will see any dedicated Wario mains hitting top 5 placements in awesome regions any time soon. I think reflex is like the only one. :\

ZSS isn't top tier but she functions reasonably well in a solo capacity, whereas Wario is usually played as a really solid secondary (top 3 secondary choices in the game).

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I don't deny that ZSS is potentially better than Wario, I just feel like we should wait a little bit before we make something like that "official", seeing as it is only a relatively new idea.

Who knows what shenanigans that Japanese Wario could pull.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

You're probably right but ICs for a #1 tie with MK would like a word with you

 

[GOofyGV]

The issue is that the "borderline tier" Wolf is in right now is just all kinds of jank, it isn't a Wolf-specific issue though. Borderline tier is basically "high tier in japan or midwest+Peach."

How's this for top/high:

1. MK
2. Ice Climbers
3. Olimar, Snake, Diddy Kong, Falco

3. Marth/Zero Suit Samus, Wario
4. King Dedede, Toon Link/Pit
5. Lucario/Fox/Wolf/ROB

4 and 5 are really weird because they have such wildly varying success across regions depending on what characters are popular there... Fox and Pit have done OK in European and Japanese tournaments and Fox does well on the west coast but he usually needs a secondary. Wolf does well on Smashboards. Lucario is only in high tier anymore because I don't know.

Not really sure what to do with it. I'd probably move Lucario to mid tier.

Why do I not see pikachu? Did you forget him or do you think he is worse then all those characters?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Why do I not see pikachu? Did you forget him or do you think he is worse then all those characters?

I just forgot.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Honestly, as long as the terms "Pikachu's metagame" and "ESAM" are virtually synonymous it remains unclear where player ability ends and where charatcer ability starts.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Grab mother-****ing disagrees.

True, Ill give you that one, her grab is definitely really good, cant believe I forgot it.

 

[infiniteV115]

Didn't Hayase get 1st at a tourney after a year-long hiatus, beating everyone he played with Pikachu with the exception of beating 9B's ICs with MK?

Did he beat nobody notable with Pikachu? :\

 

[Kuro~]

The issue is that the "borderline tier" Wolf is in right now is just all kinds of jank, it isn't a Wolf-specific issue though. Borderline tier is basically "high tier in japan or midwest+Peach."

How's this for top/high:

1. MK
2. Ice Climbers
3. Olimar, Snake, Diddy Kong, Falco

3. Marth/Zero Suit Samus, Wario
4. King Dedede, Lucario/Pit
5. Toonlink/(Fox,Wolf)/ROB

4 and 5 are really weird because they have such wildly varying success across regions depending on what characters are popular there... Fox and Pit have done OK in European and Japanese tournaments and Fox does well on the west coast but he usually needs a secondary. Wolf does well on Smashboards. Lucario is only in high tier anymore because I don't know.

Not really sure what to do with it. I'd probably move Lucario to mid tier.

Fixed
/10char

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

why g&w was ever moved out of high tier bamboozles me

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Fixed
/10char

The slashes were there to imply that any order would have worked for me.

 

[Kuro~]

The slashes were there to imply that any order would have worked for me.

Ya i figured.

Just forgot to remove one of them(the lucario/pit one lucario is higher imo)

I put parentheses around fox/wolf cuz i believe honestly they hold the same viability in the long haul.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Didn't Hayase get 1st at a tourney after a year-long hiatus, beating everyone he played with Pikachu with the exception of beating 9B's ICs with MK?

Did he beat nobody notable with Pikachu? :\

He beat Earth [Pit] and Cross [Sheik] and the tourney was single elimination so it's reaaally hard to say how much it actually matters for him to have used Pikachu over like all the other characters he can play. And winning one local tournament with Pikachu - using MK in the most important set by far - hardly adds a lot to the Pikachu metagame. If he does the same in a double elimination tourney and beats like good MK, Olimar, Diddy, ICs et all then I'd be willing to admit that the current Pikachu metagame goes beyond ESAM's accomplishments. For now that's not the case.

why g&w was ever moved out of high tier bamboozles me

GW blows.

 

[Sunnysunny]

Lucario is only in high tier anymore because I don't know..

I here people state this alot, so i'm gonna address this real quick~

Lucario's high tier because he has the tools to deal with any situation, but none of them are outright broken~

He's fairly heavy, floaty enough to escape most BS combo's, has no blindspots, and good normals that allow him to combo and wall very well. The shieldstun and kill power he gains while at high percent also makes it so the opponent has to respect his pressure game. And of course ya know. His roll's godlike for both offense and defense matters.

He doesn't outright destroy anyone, but he's also not outright destroyed. He's given the tools to deal with any situation. He' doesn't excel greatly at anything, but he's not lacking in any other category either.

If you look at the previous tierlist Lucario's hardly moved at all. Its more like everyone else on the tierlist just moves around him. Nothing broken about him has come up, but no technique has been found to gay him out either.

It's almost like he's perpetually frozen in the metagame right now.

Honestly I think the only dumb thing about him is aura, but even that goes both ways.
...Sorry, that was a little tedious sounding wasn't it? ._.

 

[-LzR-]

His fsmash is still goddamn ********.