Official BBR Tier List v7

[Grizzlpaw]

Squirtle obviously has two bars of soap for feet.

God help us if anyone starts to master the true hydroplane

 

[Judo777]

Real Talk, just how it is.

That's a whole lot of info to take in about phantasm and punishing it.

I think my only contribution to the Falco/Sheik thingy is Falco's Jab >>>> Sheik as a whole. Judo, have you explored possibilities with the Chain on Falco's recovery options or against phantasm in general. Just a thought I had spontaneously.

Yea Falcos jab......is just a humongous problem. 3 frames faster than Sheiks ftilt with GREATER range.

I tested the idea of chain vs Falcos recovery a little about 2 or 3 months ago. My conclusion was its just not practical. You cant react to his phanatsm/move the chain in the correct position to stuff it as you react. And due to its shear range there is no correct spacing from the ledge that lets you threaten the part you can hit, while not being to far away to allow the ledge to be free and a ledge drop DJ laser to get back on stage.

Like even on the times where i did manage to hit him once out of phantasm if he just did another one immediately (in an almost mashing sense) there was no way to hit him again quick enough with precision.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Yea Falcos jab......is just a humongous problem. 3 frames faster than Sheiks ftilt with GREATER range.

I tested the idea of chain vs Falcos recovery a little about 2 or 3 months ago. My conclusion was its just not practical. You cant react to his phanatsm/move the chain in the correct position to stuff it as you react. And due to its shear range there is no correct spacing from the ledge that lets you threaten the part you can hit, while not being to far away to allow the ledge to be free and a ledge drop DJ laser to get back on stage.

Like even on the times where i did manage to hit him once out of phantasm if he just did another one immediately (in an almost mashing sense) there was no way to hit him again quick enough with precision.

Could you maybe use needles to hit Flaco out of Phantasm's startup frames?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I decided to just test the whole damn thing out and gather a ton of data to convince myself. I completely neglected to factor in hitlag for phantasm. Read the junk below if you want the full explanation.

The tl;dr story is that it is entirely possible to punish Falco for using phantasm as Sheik if she dash attacks or even dash grabs. The only limiting factors are distance from sheik to falco (as you mentioned) or your reaction time. Although, if you read the junk below, you'll see most of your reaction time is spent waiting for shieldhitlag/stun to finish with.

[collapse=Nonsense]Normally, when a character uses a move like jab on a shield, both characters go through the same about of freeze frames (hitlag). Although, falco does not go through hitlag at all when his phantasm hits a shield, so a character will have to sit through shield hitlag and shield stun before acting against phantasm.

Shield Stun = Damage/3
Note: If tenths place of result is 7 or less, round down. If tenths place of result is 8 or above, round up
Shield Hitlag = Floor[(Damage/2.6 + 5)

Okay, phantasm does 7%, so 2 frames shieldstun and 7 frames hitlag. 9 frames total unable to do anything once hit in shield. 7 frames shield drop included. And one frame to turn around before a dash will start. And another frame once a dash is started before the dash attack starts.

And Falco's phantasm hitbox comes out as early as frame 23 if doing a perfect IAP. And it lasts only 50 frames before falco can do something like shield.

frame 23: hitbox hits shield and 1st frame of shieldhitlag starts
frame 24: 2nd frame shieldhitlag
frame 25: 3rd frame shieldhitlag
frame 26: 4th frame shieldhitlag
frame 27: 5th frame shieldhitlag
frame 28: 6th frame shieldhitlag
frame 29: 7th frame shieldhitlag
frame 30: 1st frame shieldhitstun
frame 31: 2nd frame shieldhitstun
frame 32: shield drop 1st
frame 33: shield drop 2nd
frame 34: shield drop 3rd
frame 35: shield drop 4th
frame 36: shield drop 5th
frame 37: shield drop 6th
frame 38: shield drop 7th
frame 39: turn around
frame 40: dash
frame 41: sheik dash attack
frame 42: sheik dash attack
frame 43: sheik dash attack
frame 44: sheik dash attack
frame 45: Her Hitbox is finally out.
frame 46:
frame 47:
frame 48:
frame 49:
frame 50:

So, for Sheik, this gives her about 5 frames of leeway to hit falco if he ever phantasms. Dacus is not an option for her however since it takes 11 frames for the hitbox to come out and if you bdacus you have to rely upon the falco to not shield or hope he tries to roll or turn around -> jab. Something which takes times after he can move that is not shield or spotdodge.
[/collapse]
@Xiroey: He can just sideB again immediately or drop a bit below and aim for the ledge. Either way, it seems like a 50/50 mix-up if you manage to him with needles.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

lol, I remember when Sheik's needles could gimp spacies in Melee so easily. Oh how the mighty have fallen.

 

[Judo777]

I decided to just test the whole damn thing out and gather a ton of data to convince myself. I completely neglected to factor in hitlag for phantasm. Read the junk below if you want the full explanation.

The tl;dr story is that it is entirely possible to punish Falco for using phantasm as Sheik if she dash attacks or even dash grabs. The only limiting factors are distance from sheik to falco (as you mentioned) or your reaction time. Although, if you read the junk below, you'll see most of your reaction time is spent waiting for shieldhitlag/stun to finish with.

[collapse=Nonsense]Normally, when a character uses a move like jab on a shield, both characters go through the same about of freeze frames (hitlag). Although, falco does not go through hitlag at all when his phantasm hits a shield, so a character will have to sit through shield hitlag and shield stun before acting against phantasm.

Shield Stun = Damage/3
Note: If tenths place of result is 7 or less, round down. If tenths place of result is 8 or above, round up
Shield Hitlag = Floor[(Damage/2.6 + 5)

Okay, phantasm does 7%, so 2 frames shieldstun and 7 frames hitlag. 9 frames total unable to do anything once hit in shield. 7 frames shield drop included. And one frame to turn around before a dash will start. And another frame once a dash is started before the dash attack starts.

And Falco's phantasm hitbox comes out as early as frame 23 if doing a perfect IAP. And it lasts only 50 frames before falco can do something like shield.

frame 23: hitbox hits shield and 1st frame of shieldhitlag starts
frame 24: 2nd frame shieldhitlag
frame 25: 3rd frame shieldhitlag
frame 26: 4th frame shieldhitlag
frame 27: 5th frame shieldhitlag
frame 28: 6th frame shieldhitlag
frame 29: 7th frame shieldhitlag
frame 30: 1st frame shieldhitstun
frame 31: 2nd frame shieldhitstun
frame 32: shield drop 1st
frame 33: shield drop 2nd
frame 34: shield drop 3rd
frame 35: shield drop 4th
frame 36: shield drop 5th
frame 37: shield drop 6th
frame 38: shield drop 7th
frame 39: turn around
frame 40: dash
frame 41: sheik dash attack
frame 42: sheik dash attack
frame 43: sheik dash attack
frame 44: sheik dash attack
frame 45: Her Hitbox is finally out.
frame 46:
frame 47:
frame 48:
frame 49:
frame 50:

So, for Sheik, this gives her about 5 frames of leeway to hit falco if he ever phantasms. Dacus is not an option for her however since it takes 11 frames for the hitbox to come out and if you bdacus you have to rely upon the falco to not shield or hope he tries to roll or turn around -> jab. Something which takes times after he can move that is not shield or spotdodge.
[/collapse]
@Xiroey: He can just sideB again immediately or drop a bit below and aim for the ledge. Either way, it seems like a 50/50 mix-up if you manage to him with needles.

So DA is frame 5 not 7? Didn't know (if i had a nickle for everytime i complained about incomplete frame date). But yea 5 frames isn't enough time to cover the distance. Like the main question is is Sheiks DA range from a stand still equal to the last 2/3 of phantasm. I think the answer is no. However something i did neglect is you can react to phantasm BEFORE it hits ur shield so its not like I have to wait for hitlag and stuff to end before I react I can react to the startup or his DJ or w/e. So the reaction part isn't a huge factor (a slight one but if ur on ur game you should be ok).

@Xiroey
Yea if you needle his side B he'll just do it again and hit you. And Sheik loses every trade in the game.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Judo would you venture to say if Sheiks' dash attack had just a centimeter of extra range she'd be a lot better? I can't help but notice that Sheik has a bit of trouble punishing horizontally unless dacus will come out fast enough to punish the lag (not usually unless it was a very laggy landing).

It's a shame because a move like Sheik's dash attack was basically made to punish stuff, it just has that deceptively poor range that makes it tough to use against great characters,

 

[infiniteV115]

I punish phantasms with PS-->dash grab as ZSS, wtf is going on

 

[Luigi player]

Pretty sure Falcos Phantasm doesn't come out THAT early so the Falco sometimes has to use it before he knows what his opponent might do. Jump+Phantasm has a little startup = a bit of time so Falco has to predict/hope his opponent doesn't predict it.

 

[Laem]

Play any1 good and he'll magically defy framedata and punish the sideb.
Heck, sheik's DA causes her to be one of the very best characters at doing so.

 

[Lukingordex]

We won't start working on the next tier list until the next MU chart is done. We typically run on a ~9 month schedule with tier lists, but it'll probably be a longer wait this time around, unfortunately.

Make sure this time your guys put Lucas vs Bowser even instead of +1 Bowser.

 

[Luigi player]

I wish more people would use Bowser... he's actually not too bad of a character...

 

[| Big D |]

I witnessed the birth.

PT is all 3 pokemon.

 

[Lukingordex]

I wish more people would use Bowser... he's actually not too bad of a character...

Maybe,but talking about the MU Bowser vs Lucas,you can ask to every good Lucas or good Bowser main,they'll say it is even.

 

[Luigi player]

I wasn't talking about that MU, just Bowser in general. I also think Bowser vs Lucas is about even.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Maybe,but talking about the MU Bowser vs Lucas,you can ask to every good Lucas or good Bowser main,they'll say it is even.

I don't agree. It's +1 .

I wasn't talking about that MU, just Bowser in general. I also think Bowser vs Lucas is about even.

No, it's +1 .

I witnessed the birth.

PT is all 3 pokemon.

This made me laugh a lot and I can't even understand why.

I wish more people would use Bowser... he's actually not too bad of a character...

No, he's really bad. is slow on the ground and relatively slow in the air outside of Klaw hopping. His approach options are abysmal, he can't deal with camping well, his recovery isn't amazing, wracking damage on him isn't that hard, gets juggled, gets cg'd horribly by and @_@, and his shield is easily stabbed.

is ok vs LT's. I'd say he is even with , , , and . +1 vs . -1 vs and -2 vs ...Bottom 5 in the game. I'd say he is above , , , and , but that's it. >.

 

[Lukingordex]

In general Bowser does not that bad,but unfortunately,some -3s are really bull**** against him.

 

[Lukingordex]

I don't agree. It's +1 .

Bowser has Grab Release>almost everything on Lucas,that's why I think it's even.

Shame on me,sorry for double posting

 

[Seagull Joe]

In general Bowser does not that bad,but unfortunately,some -3s are really bull**** against him.

Depends on your definition of "Not that bad". If we look at every character then he is bad. If we look at LT's/MT's only then he does "Not that bad".

Bowser has Grab Release>almost everything on Lucas,that's why I think it's even.

Shame on me,sorry for double posting

This is a pretty bad mentality/reasoning for saying it's even. Grabbing with is hard to begin with.

 

[Ishiey]

Make sure this time your guys put Lucas vs Bowser even instead of +1 Bowser.

That's not up to me, that's up to the Lucas panel. Which I'm sure will be much more suited to the public's taste this time around.

Bowser is... placed pretty accurately on the tier list imo. His lack of rep is still a problem.

Also, that picture was lol.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I think I should be on the next panel honestly (Whenever we do the next chart)... It's not like his matchups have changed since I dropped him in 08-09.

 

[Ishiey]

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

I have no idea what to say to that lol

 

[Nidtendofreak]

That's not up to me, that's up to the Lucas panel. Which I'm sure will be much more suited to the public's taste this time around.

You mean they're going to try to better at least half of his MU numbers when only one or two need changing. >_>

 

[Lukingordex]

This is a pretty bad mentality/reasoning for saying it's even. Grabbing with is hard to begin with.

It's hard because most Lucas' mains have been improved in the "don't get grabbed game".

 

[Ishiey]

You mean they're going to try to better at least half of his MU numbers when only one or two need changing. >_>

Well, tbh maybe lol. But changing a MU takes two sides. I wouldn't claim to know which MUs are/aren't adequate for a character I don't play.

That being said, those with crazy radical opinions don't tend to do too well with the whole MU chart thing.

 

[Lukingordex]

That being said, those with crazy radical opinions don't tend to do too well with the whole MU chart thing.

Im don't saying that because of my opinion,I'm saying that because most good Lucas mains agree with it,like Mekos and FAE.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

The problem is that if both sides are stubborn, a third party is brought in. And quite frankly, the third party can be ignorant at best about the MU and simply be swayed by wording.

 

[Seagull Joe]

The problem is that if both sides are stubborn, a third party is brought in. And quite frankly, the third party can be ignorant at best about the MU and simply be swayed by wording.

How vs was deemed even. Also how vs was deemed +3 instead of +2.

 

[#HBC | J]

That's not up to me, that's up to the Lucas panel. Which I'm sure will be much more suited to the public's taste this time around.

Bowser is... placed pretty accurately on the tier list imo. His lack of rep is still a problem.

Also, that picture was lol.

Lol hopefully so.

You mean they're going to try to better at least half of his MU numbers when only one or two need changing. >_>

Nope, a few crucial ones need changing but Lucas' MU chart is a mess.

@About Bowser:

I don't think Bowser is good at all but his position on the tier list is adequate. Ishie is right he has no reps but even if he did have more reps I doubt he would be going anywhere that much higher than he is now.

 

[Ishiey]

Lukinhaas, I did not mean to say your opinion was radical lol, it was just a general statement.

@ Niddo, what better alternatives are there though? Vote tallies can be swayed by stubborn panels too, and only take one softie to turn the tides. It's a tough situation... :/

@ J, neenerneener I would post a stupid GIF but I'm too lazy lol. Fuujin, your services are requested.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Common sense is a better alternative. *looks at Pikachu vs MK ratio* *looks at MK vs Mario ratio because seriously how on earth did ANYONE look at that and go "yep, nothing wrong here, release the chart!"*

A third party is just going to be consistently swayed by the same set of panels. Which ever side has the better sounding posts will more or less auto-win the third party decisions.

A better solution? ".5"s. Only hand them out when it comes to stalemates. You can even say in the front post "This isn't actually a rating as much as a sign its still argued"

 

[#HBC | J]

@ J, neenerneener I would post a stupid GIF but I'm too lazy lol. Fuujin, your services are requested.

[collapse=Possibly this one?]

[/collapse]

A better solution? ".5"s. Only hand them out when it comes to stalemates. You can even say in the front post "This isn't actually a rating as much as a sign its still argued"

I actually really like this in terms of MUs that are stale-mated.

 

[Ishiey]

Common sense is a better alternative. *looks at Pikachu vs MK ratio* *looks at MK vs Mario ratio because seriously how on earth did ANYONE look at that and go "yep, nothing wrong here, release the chart!"*

A third party is just going to be consistently swayed by the same set of panels. Which ever side has the better sounding posts will more or less auto-win the third party decisions.

A better solution? ".5"s. Only hand them out when it comes to stalemates. You can even say in the front post "This isn't actually a rating as much as a sign its still argued"

Common sense is basically staying stick with the status quo. Which means everyone can prevent progress if they're already on the winning side by preventing a resolution.

.5s are a huge issue for actual ratios, but if it's to signify an unresolved debate, perhaps. I'll run it by some people. And by some people, I mean Marc.


@J, I don't think so... something a bit more nonsensical, maybe like this?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Mario vs MK being +2/-2 in the first chart wasn't progress. It was a sad joke of a ratio that somehow got through. >_> Common sense should have stop that one dead in its tracks. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about when I say "use common sense".

 

[#HBC | J]

Nice pokemon one. I approve.

"Common sense" is a basic way of some people getting away with some MUs. Needs more tightening on that sort of logic.

 

[Laem]

.5s are a huge issue for actual ratios, but if it's to signify an unresolved debate, perhaps. I'll run it by some people. And by some people, I mean Marc.

Please don't xD

Resolved debate: make the change if there is one.
Unresolved debate: no change.

No .5's, that doesn't accomplish anything.

Sidenote: MK +2 Mario seems plausible to me. Cape > MK suicides tadaaa.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Please don't xD

Resolved debate: make the change if there is one.
Unresolved debate: no change.

No .5's, that doesn't accomplish anything.

Sidenote: MK +2 Mario seems plausible to me. Cape > MK suicides tadaaa.

has no chance of getting in. +3.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Mario is out ranged, out damaged, out maneuvered, out attack speed'd, probably out KO powered though I'm not as certain, and the odds of MK getting his Shuttle Loop cape'd are laughable. FLUDD is worthless, fireballs are next to worthless. IMO Mario is lucky to only be at -3.

Also: Just leaving it at resolved=change unresolved=no change isn't fair. Some of the unresolved arguments stem from both sides honestly having really good points, and it should be reflected as such on the chart.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

One of the few MUs where a character just gets solidly beaten. No gimmicks: MK is amazing, Mario is awful.

 

[Orion*]

Mario is out ranged, out damaged, out maneuvered, out attack speed'd, probably out KO powered though I'm not as certain, and the odds of MK getting his Shuttle Loop cape'd are laughable. FLUDD is worthless, fireballs are next to worthless. IMO Mario is lucky to only be at -3.

Mario being at -3 definitely wouldnt be out of the norm to have, but you exaggerate how bad the mu is, and don't seem to have a clear understanding of what you are talking about.

Mario being outrange is very clear, because he's outranged by almost everyone.

Outdamaged and outsped i don't necessarily agree with.

In terms of how often MK should be landing hits in comparison to mario via just having more solid options, is an obvious yes however in terms of actually just landing solid hits MK isn't really that amazing. The only move that really does significant damage is double hit nair, which isn't a safe option in a majority of situations.

In terms of speed marios fastest ground option is a frame 2 jab, in comparison to MKs frame 3 ftilt and dtilt. Damage wise ftilt does 11-12%, whereas marios jab combo does 9, however MKs ftilt is considerably easier to sdi. Mario can opt to go for jabjab ftilt which is relatively safe and consistent if the jab is sweetspotted right and does 14%.

In terms of grabs, MKs most damaging throw is 13 and Marios is 12, but more reliably MK will usually Dthrow for followups, and Mario can still opt to choose to choose to dthrow for like 6% and uthrow for 9 if he wants MK above him.

In terms of reliable airs (not marios fair), frame data and damage output are also quite solid in comparison to MK.

Nair frame 3 with 10/5%
Uair frame 4 with 11%
Dair frame 5 total of 12 percent if all hits, last hit is 7
Bair frame 6 12/7 percent

Vs

MKs

Uair frame 2 with 6%
Nair frame 3 with 9/18%
Dair frame 4 with 7-9%
Fair frame 6 all 3 hits = 10%

In terms of mobility MK has a clearly better dash and walk speed, but still lacks in the horizontal air mobility.

Due to the fact the MK also has transcendent priority he can't just swing through mario's fireballs. He can nado, however it's not the most spammable move in the MU, because between powershielding and usmash (kills and does solid damage / combo setup) mario has reliable answers to it.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Don't get me wrong. MK CLEARLY ****s up mario, and I would not be against a -3. There is no doubt in anyones mind about that. However before you start just posting your opinion as fact, or making outlandish statements without truly understanding basic data and knowledge in a matchup, let alone the intricacies and the nuances that come along with consistent play of either character, it would be beneficial to everyone if you studied a little bit.

The problem with you is that you tend to make hard *** posts and judge everyone, except you actually don't REALLY know what you're talking about. You might have a general idea, but it's pretty clear just from reading your post that you never really went in depth, which bothers me.

Don't get me wrong as I could probably write another huge essay on this MU.

I didn't even cover basic things like mario on the ledge, MKs followup options in a lot of situations, risk reward, gimps, frame traps whatever. But before I can even go that far you need to take step 1 and know what you're talking about.