Official BBR Tier List v7

[Judo777]

If I recall right, I think Judo thinks Sheik vs Falco is +1 Falco?

I don't agree with Dedede being in High Tier over say...Fox.

I also don't agree with Sheik having a +1 on Falco, Falco has things to fight against Sheik with, and so do we. If anything I'd go for like....55-45 in our favor just because of like tilts, but it's still virtually even vs. anyone that isn't bad with Falco.

Possible confusion? Or are you both agreeing. Yea Sheik doesn't beat Falco even if she did kill everytime with ftilt. Falco's crap is way too safe.

Falco is like the only character in the game other than MK with a perfectly safe, legitimate repeatable strategy. Like a properly performed laser, phantasm keep away is like completely safe. Its just hard to be perfect at and can be beaten with a really well executed extremely hard read.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

...Extremely hard read...?

 

[Juushichi]

I imagine that Judo is referring to a really good gimp or something very similar in magnitude that gets a good early lead for Sheik and forces Falco to have to change up his game. I think Falco has the (albeit very slight) edge in just about every phase of the game in the match up. I think his neutral is superior, and as funny as it is to say, his kill power is better also his edge-guarding is probably a bit better mostly because of Sheik's poor recovery options and options coming off of the ledge, especially >100.

It's perfectly winnable, but I and I believe Judo thinks it's Falco favor. For the record, I think Wolf v Sheik is evenish. Maaaaybe Wolf favor also slightly.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

...Extremely hard read...?

"I knew you were going to do that over a full second ago, before YOU knew you were going to do that."

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It seemed like he was talking about Falco in general to me, not just Falco vs. Sheik.

So I dunno, I can't say I agree that it requires an _extremely_ hard read to beat Falco's shenanigans...

 

[#HBC | Scary]

I refuse to believe Wolf vs. Sheik is even close to even or anything for Wolf.

As far as Falco is concerned. I can say that that MU is even. It really all boils down to the Ftilt lock for Sheik. Falco's everything is better otherwise and can stuff Sheik approaches extremely well. As Sheik, you really have to be creative in that MU.

 

[Dcold]

Wolf is a +1 for Sheik, he has Bair really, and it's barely a +1 at that, tilts really mess him up if he miss-spaces bair, and our needles are better here. He can't get away as good as Falco, and his laser isn't as potent.

And he didn't say that that's the only way to beat Falco, he said that his strategy can be beaten with a hard read. Like on a phantasm.

I still wouldn't agree that Falco beats Sheik, it's even lol. If we get him offstage there's no reason why that's not damage, + a punish on his landings if he has to side B back on the stage, plus the tilt lock. Falco's good fundamentals is what makes the MU even.

 

[Laem]

really well executed extremely hard read.

Like, shorthop nair?

I'd say sheik +1 wolf as well. Avoiding ftilt isn't that hard. And in contrast to what Dcold said, I don't really think Wolf is in much trouble at all if he whiffs bair, like get dash attacked at worst. Wolf's moves are beefier too, % and knockback wise, while not that much slower.
Sheik combo's tho.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

 

[infiniteV115]

Falco is like the only character in the game other than MK with a perfectly safe, legitimate repeatable strategy. Like a properly performed laser, phantasm keep away is like completely safe. Its just hard to be perfect at and can be beaten with a really well executed extremely hard read.

Extremely hard read?
Can't you just PS --> shoot your needles at him?

 

[Ishiey]

lol SFP. Basically.

Agreeing with Dcold on Sheik barely being +1 over Wolf. Without the tilt lock she'd be boned, and even with it it's not too bad if she doesn't end up KOing Wolf out of it. She loses trades, loses the survivability war HARD unless she gets a good kill out of the tilt lock or some nonsense DACUS read, doesn't actually edgeguard Wolf too bad (at least not much worse than he edgeguards her), gets outspaced, and gets doodoo'd on really hard when she's on the ledge. Thankfully she has some great low % combos even aside from the ftilt lock, and some obscene ground speed to help her get them started.

imo. Although I'd love to see explanations from those that feel otherwise, especially about how Wolf might beat Sheik because idk man that's a stretch :x

 

[Juushichi]

I'm mostly really just recalling my experiences with Wolf and watching a few sets of Judo vs Kain.

Ed also has quite a bit of experience with Falcos, if I recall (there are a lot of them in FL) and now with MCPee down in GA, there's a Wolf of note there. Judo and I struggle a lot against Shugo (but... it is Shugo). Hell... Ishiey, the MU I feel like can be even for... exactly the reasons that you said and the same reasons I pretty much listed Falco for being +1 haha. I mean, you listed like all the reasons that Sheik can struggle vs Wolf and then for Sheik you go; "But that tilt lock though!".

The tilt lock is a very, very good tool, but talking to Judo after sets vs Kain and just in general because I see him once in a while, he seems to think that the tilt on Wolf (and Falco, I think) is actually a bit on the harder end. Saying that Wolf wins the MU is probably a bit of a stretch, but that's also why I said maybe and that the MU was evenish in my opinion.

I am not saying that this is absolutely the case, just that it's my idea. I've got at least a good Wolf in my area that I had to play and do play a lot in Luminoth64. Falco-wise I play against SoraSin sometimes and Shugo a lot less often.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

I mean, you listed like all the reasons that Sheik can struggle vs Wolf and then for Sheik you go; "But that tilt lock though!".

Every single Snake mu discussion goes just like this, but replace tilt lock with Tilts and Nades lol.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Youre the one that did that picture of fuujin right?

You are really on point with these

 

[infiniteV115]

Wolf supposedly also goes even with ICs btw

**** yeah 3000 posts

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Nah, it's -1 but Seagull thinks it's even and he's pretty loudmouthish about his opinions on Wolf's match-ups so people tend to think that his opinions = all Wolf players' opinions. Wolf is -1 against all top tiers except Olimar, which is even.

 

[infiniteV115]

Wolf is not -1 with Pikachu lol

And I was referring to the chart. Which is why I said 'supposedly'

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Pikachu's not top tier though.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

BBR Tier List v7

Top
S: (±0)
A: (+6) (-1) (+3) (-2)
B: (-2) (-2) (+1) (-3)

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.

 

[Luigi player]

People still just go by all lists blindly...

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'm talking about the game, not some random tier list.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

I'm confused now. Are we talking about a different tier list, and a different top tier or something? O-o

 

[Sunnysunny]

Wolf mains ain't give a **** about nothing.
They'll be the ones to take you doooown.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'm confused now. Are we talking about a different tier list, and a different top tier or something? O-o

Well, Pikachu doesn't just magically become a top tier character in the game just because a tier list says so ...

 

[Ralph Cecil]

Well I thought it was the tier list that listed which characters are top tier and which ones are not lol. So we are just going by personal tier lists then? :o

 

[Tesh]

The game didn't come with pre-made tier lists, the community made them. Its ******** to just say "oh in the game he isn't top tier tho".

Tho..

Pika is mid or high tier on japan's tier list.
Gheb rides Japan's **** as hard as he possibly can.
Therefore Pika is not top tier.

 

[Jimmy?]

But this thread is about the tier list in the first post.... saying Pikachu is top tier is true in this thread, because this thread operates under that list.

You can disagree and think Pikachu should be moved elsewhere.

But.

Pikachu is still for all intents and purposes top tier.

That's how discussion actually happens. You can't just expect people to know everyone else's personal tier list. That's ****ing dumb.

/justsayin'.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Well, Pikachu doesn't just magically become a top tier character in the game just because a tier list says so ...

You're right, Pikachu becomes top tier because Pika mains played the hell out of him and developed a metagame that makes him a great and viable character to use in top tier competitive play.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

You're right, Pikachu becomes top tier because Pika mains played the hell out of him and developed a metagame that makes him a great and viable character to use in top tier competitive play.

You realize you're playing into his hands because meta game and results don't mean **** because characters don't change just because we learn new things.

Pokemon Trainer could be top tier because of undiscovered technology. Just because we barely put him in mid tier wouldn't change the fact that he is a top tier character under that hypothetical, we just wouldn't know it.

Using a definition like that is a ******* to deal with, but I still love him.

 

[Claire Diviner]

You realize you're playing into his hands because meta game and results don't mean **** because characters don't change just because we learn new things.

Pokemon Trainer could be top tier because of undiscovered technology. Just because we barely put him in mid tier wouldn't change the fact that he is a top tier character under that hypothetical, we just wouldn't know it.

Using a definition like that is a ******* to deal with, but I still love him.

I was pretty sure the metagame, results, and MUs were a factor in a character's tier placement. I mean, look at Diddy; he started off in the mid tier, and thanks to new discoveries with how to play him, he's a dominant force to worry about for most characters. Unless there's something I'm missing.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

But this thread is about the tier list in the first post.... saying Pikachu is top tier is true in this thread, because this thread operates under that list.

You can disagree and think Pikachu should be moved elsewhere.

But.

Pikachu is still for all intents and purposes top tier.

That's how discussion actually happens. You can't just expect people to know everyone else's personal tier list. That's ****ing dumb.

/justsayin'.

This is what I was trying to say lol. I'm just god awful at saying what i'm thinking. =p

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Youre the one that did that picture of fuujin right?

You are really on point with these

I got a million of 'em.

 

[Sunnysunny]

Well, Pikachu doesn't just magically become a top tier character in the game just because a tier list says so ...

What?

Dude, they don't just throw darts at a dartboard to determine what is and what isn't top tier. They come to that conclusion threw results and experience. Pikachu mains of the US have put in enough work to make pikachu what he is today. Sure his hitbox's and mobility don't change, but the way players utilize them do.

My main lucario's pretty far down in the japanese tier list in comparison to ours. Not because he's a bad character, but because they didn't put in as much work as the US did with this character, ya know? But I understand that. Like damn, look at where Fox and Pit are there!

Hell, i'm sure if more people put work into ganondorf even he'd rise a bit. Sonic was considered super garbage before Espy and the other sonic mains aspired to raise him up the tierlist. We decide how far we want to take these characters. Of course I ain't saying we can make ganon top tier, but ey, we do have some effect on how good a character is.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Hell, i'm sure if more people put work into ganondorf even he'd rise a bit.

Let's not muddy things up here. But yeah, you and I have the same idea.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

I've been preaching exactly this about PT for Eon's now!

I mean, PT's tourney winnings are actually comparable to Pikachu's percentage wise.

And you know what?
PT is actually an undeveloped character. Unlike Pikachu, people are generally too afraid to use him in tourneys.

Imagine how far he'd rise if he just got more support.

Reflex has shown us what squirtle can do.
Now for the other two.

We need willing Charizard and Ivysaur mains to step forward.

 

[Seagull Joe]

For the record, I think Wolf v Sheik is evenish. Maaaaybe Wolf favor also slightly.

._. no. wins +1 no question. If the ftilt lock didn't kill then maybe, but it kills unlike .

is good at camping/dodging , which makes this matchup only -1 for .

I used to think this matchup was 's 3rd worst after and , but then I realized how to camp and she couldn't kill without a stale ftilt.

 

[Claire Diviner]

I've been preaching exactly this about PT for Eon's now!

I mean, PT's tourney winnings are actually comparable to Pikachu's percentage wise.

And you know what?
PT is actually an undeveloped character. Unlike Pikachu, people are generally too afraid to use him in tourneys.

Imagine how far he'd rise if he just got more support.

Reflex has shown us what squirtle can do.
Now for the other two.

We need willing Charizard and Ivysaur mains to step forward.

If what you say about PT's tourney winnings are true, then it's not just Charizard and Ivy mains, but PT mains in general. How many PT mains enter tournaments and actually use PT?

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Dear God, I've been trolled by trying to stop others from being trolled.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

I'm trying to re-locate that Statiatic as we speak.


Interestingly enough, according to the Character success thread, Pika earned less than PT as of recent.


Have Zoology lab in a few. If Not now, will post once I'm oyt after 9:30

 

[infiniteV115]

Gheb, you're free to think that Pikachu doesn't deserve to be top tier, but there's no point in using the term 'top tier' or similar terms without referring to some sort of well-established tier list.

I mean, you saying 'Pikachu isn't top tier' is no different than some AiB random named DorfMaster67 saying 'Ganondorf is high tier'.

In other words, by your logic any character can supposedly be rightfully placed in any tier as long as some person genuinely believes that said character belongs in said tier. Which is just dumb.

In this thread, 'top tier' applies to Pikachu. In the Japanese tier list thread, 'C tier' applies to Pikachu (or wherever he is on that list).
If there happens to be some well-established tier list thread made by the competitive Brawl scene in Zimbabwe on some random **** like www.ukutukusimba.com, and Pikachu is '5 tier' on that tier list, then '5 tier' applies to Pikachu in that thread.