Official BBR Tier List v7

[#HBC | Joker]

It should factor in those stages. I believe WHOBO had at least one of those stages being used. If they've showed up at nearly 100 man tournaments it should be included in the process.

I guess we should also not include MK in anything, since WHOBO had him banned....

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I guess we should also not include MK in anything, since WHOBO had him banned....

Well, what are you measuring? If you want to measure based on the previously provided definition, then you have to factor in the number of MK banned tournaments vs. MK legal tournaments and your chance of ending up at an MK legal tournament based on attendance statistics.

 

[Judo777]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRynqdwe8ew&feature=g-u-u

Pit for Q tier

That explains sooooo much. I am always saying that move is under rated and amazing because OMG you can block in the freaking air while recovering. And I do it all the time. But every now and then I would like just eat bairs through and was like "wth!"

Wow that move is bad...... Infact that means it like cant even reliably gimp anymore, or its a 50/50 ONTOP of it being hard anyway. Like DK or Ike can upB backwards and recover ok.

You guys think its like a safety mechanic to make sure you dont hit his shield again when he reflects you with the cape effect? Like he relects your attack like marios cape and then they make sure you cant hit the shield again with a backward hitbox by making sure you cant hit the shield period?

Like does anyone get what I'm saying? Like maybe its so after he flips you around you wont hit the shield and get flipped around again.

 

[Tesh]

I don't think the developers really expected people to intentionally face backwards in alot of situations. Most of the Fairs in this game seems to be designed to screw you over if you are being juggled and even the worst (or least good eh?) Bairs are pretty decent.

Its not like it was ever a good idea to use mirror shield on the ground anyway.

 

[Neon!]

Unless Marth provides more favorable results, I doubt he goes up in the list, and I don't think Falco has lost too much to deserve to go lower.
Their current spots seems about fine for me.
Almost every other prediction you just made looks very plaussible.

I think Marth and Falco should switch places for the next tier list, Marth's matchups are better and many international players like Mr. R, Leon and Mikenoko have arguably better results than Falco's. Marth really only loses MK, Diddy and DDD and he does significantly better against IC's than Falco which will become a key matchup as IC's grow even stronger in the metagame.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I think Marth and Falco should switch places for the next tier list, Marth's matchups are better and many international players like Mr. R, Leon and Mikenoko have arguably better results than Falco's. Marth really only loses MK, Diddy and DDD and he does significantly better against IC's than Falco which will become a key matchup as IC's grow even stronger in the metagame.

If we were to talk about theory Marth is definetly better, but people are yet to show that, as for now, he really lacks of good results.
Falco is just that character that everyone has to face, is really annoying and proves to be good at every level of play, from low to top (and I think Masha, Larry and some Falcos here and there have good results, to par Marth's).

So right now, I personally think both Marth and Falco should be one next to the other in the same tier, I can't even think of them otherwise.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Actually, Marth's match-up vs ICs is only marginally better than Falco's. Falco does better vs MK, Diddy, DDD, Olimar. Once you reach like mid tier Marth still goes even with / loses to ROB, Sonic, Kirby and at least the former two get ***** by Falco. Contrary to common believe, Falco doesn't have a single hard-counter.

Falco > Marth

 

[DMG]

That really depends on what you mean by "hard counter", because Pika and IC's LOOOOOOK like they push 65:35 possibly going higher. Falco's bad MU's are not all 4:6 if that's what you are saying.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Whobo is the exception to the rule and you know it lool. Most tournaments have tossed RC Brinstar out the window, especially post Apex world. Factoring in those stages would frankly be misleading based on how many tournaments actually use them. Even if we "said" we were factoring them in, most voters would not and I wouldn't blame them loool. I'd rather make 2 different tier lists based on stage differences than tell people we're counting Brinstar RC etc when people don't want to or when tournaments do not use them.

You have to factor them, otherwise you're going to be forced out a very important tournament because it doesn't fit the criteria, and that would be simply silly to do. This wasn't exactly a 20 man local tournament.

You take a look at the important tournaments that you simply cannot leave out when looking at the tier list, take the most liberal one, make that the liberal edge that must be considered when writing up the tier list. There, done. The tier list reflects the current metagame: if RC and Brinstar are still showing up at 100 man tournaments, they're still a part of the current metagame even if people don't want to admit it. Tough luck, accept it and move on.

I guess we should also not include MK in anything, since WHOBO had him banned....

Realistically the Senate should have had a pair of balls and let MK be banned long enough so, you know, we could actually get long term data on how he effected things. As it is, you have to weigh MK banned and non-banned tournaments with equal weight because of that silly decision. That of course, has its own problems for several characters (in particular Ike and Toon Link, who do noticeably better in a MK banned environment). Either that or you need two tier lists, or one tier list with say Ike (MK Banned) and Ike (MK Legal) spots for the characters where it makes a big impact. I'm rather doubtful that for those handful of characters they would be side by side slots: there would be characters in between the two slots. That of course, would be a massive topic of debate forever and a massive headache.

Can we go back to just banning MK? It make things a lot simpler.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Actually, Marth's match-up vs ICs is only marginally better than Falco's. Falco does better vs MK, Diddy, DDD, Olimar. Once you reach like mid tier Marth still goes even with / loses to ROB, Sonic, Kirby and at least the former two get ***** by Falco. Contrary to common believe, Falco doesn't have a single hard-counter.

Falco > Marth

.

 

[Neon!]

Actually, Marth's match-up vs ICs is only marginally better than Falco's. Falco does better vs MK, Diddy, DDD, Olimar. Once you reach like mid tier Marth still goes even with / loses to ROB, Sonic, Kirby and at least the former two get ***** by Falco. Contrary to common believe, Falco doesn't have a single hard-counter.

Falco > Marth

Falco loses to both IC's and Pika -2 (or 65-35) while marth's worst matchups are 60-40 and he only has 3 of them. Also do some research before you post, Falco goes even with 5 mid tiers and Marth goes even with 3.

MK, IC's and Olimar are the most important matchups currently

Marth:
40/60 MK
50/50 IC
50/50 Olimar (Arguably slightly in marth's)

Falco:
45/55 MK
35/65 IC
60/40 Olimar

Falco does do better against Diddy but Marth does signicantly better against snake and wario.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

You have to factor them, otherwise you're going to be forced out a very important tournament because it doesn't fit the criteria, and that would be simply silly to do. This wasn't exactly a 20 man local tournament.

You take a look at the important tournaments that you simply cannot leave out when looking at the tier list, take the most liberal one, make that the liberal edge that must be considered when writing up the tier list. There, done. The tier list reflects the current metagame: if RC and Brinstar are still showing up at 100 man tournaments, they're still a part of the current metagame even if people don't want to admit it. Tough luck, accept it and move on.

Not necessarily. You don't have to throw it out, you just have to take it into account. I maintain that, although I want a more precise idea of what you're doing here, it will be an inexact science with at least some degree of interpretation of circumstances necessary.

 

[infiniteV115]

Gheb has some fairly radical views so I doubt he was referring to the MU chart.

 

[Shaya]

Marth definitely does notably better against ICs than Falco.
Contrary to gheb's early 2010 *****ing about ICs v Marth that has solidified his opinion on the match up forever and nothing you ever say to him will change his mind, a lot of Marths do pretty okay against Ice Climber players.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Diddy goes even with both Marth and Falco

 

[DMG]

Yeah... idk about Diddy beating Marth. It doesn't feel like it from Diddy's perspective, but then again I don't have a solid answer for Marth besides praying they don't know the Wario MU or hoping RC/Brinstar are legal lol.

 

[Shaya]

Diddy's momentum is extremely hard for marth to deal with.

In any split situation marth can dolphin slash or hold shield to handle "momentum". Diddy can play around both if they aren't too greedy.

 

[Steam]

I still haven't noticed marth do anything in forever.

can he be mid tier yet?

 

[_Kain_]

I still haven't noticed marth do anything in forever.

can he be mid tier yet?

There was SKTAR where Marth mains did pretty well, then the timespan where Ramin was here doing pretty well at stuff...

You shouldn't post unless you know what you are saying

 

[Z'zgashi]

Lol, Steam.

 

[C.J.]

Yeah, Marth is doing nothing. MikeNeko getting consistent top8s in Japan and more than a few Top 3s recently, Mike getting second at E4U-R and Ramin doing pretty alright there as well, Ramin doing well at Impulse (top 3) and placing the same as the highest placing Falco (DEHF) at SKTAR as well. Leon bodying DEHF and MVD. Leon just won a large European tourney. MikeNeko got 7th at SRT (same placing as M2K) including placing higher than players like Havok, Nietono, Suinoko, Yui, Brood, Shogun, and Shu.

Totally right though, he's not doing anything at all. I mean look at all of those Falco resu... well, you know Snake is doing bett...

But yeah, he's doing nothing.

 

[DMG]

Yep. Not a DAMN thing.

 

[Player-1]

diddy marth is definitely even. all marths just suck at the mu except p3

 

[C.J.]

I resent that, P-1 =(

/personal MU crusade and has been saying it's even since '08

 

[Steam]

damn, I got taken seriously.

I wish that would have happened when I actually payed attention to results and put thought into things.

 

[Shaya]

Marth has always had results. Just people tended to say they shouldn't count.

Back in 08 I was on the "marth beats diddy train"

 

[istudying]

Yeah, Marth is doing nothing. MikeNeko getting consistent top8s in Japan and more than a few Top 3s recently, Mike getting second at E4U-R and Ramin doing pretty alright there as well, Ramin doing well at Impulse (top 3) and placing the same as the highest placing Falco (DEHF) at SKTAR as well. Leon bodying DEHF and MVD. Leon just won a large European tourney. MikeNeko got 7th at SRT (same placing as M2K) including placing higher than players like Havok, Nietono, Suinoko, Yui, Brood, Shogun, and Shu.

Totally right though, he's not doing anything at all. I mean look at all of those Falco resu... well, you know Snake is doing bett...

But yeah, he's doing nothing.

Don't forget my 2nd place at impact! marth got top 3 at Impact, Impulse and e4u, which were all pretty stacked and decently sized tourneys

-Ramin

 

[C.J.]

Marth has always had results. Just people tended to say they shouldn't count.

Back in 08 I was on the "marth beats diddy train"

Pretty much- the people who hate Marth have always ignored Marth's results because they want to see him do worse for some random reason. People like Steam have always been incapable of remaining objective when it comes to Marth for some reason with their heavy bias being disgustingly obvious from moment one.

Marth beating Diddy has always been silly though.

Don't forget my 2nd place at impact! marth got top 3 at Impact, Impulse and e4u, which were all pretty stacked and decently sized tourneys

-Ramin

Too many results, don't care; my point was made.

 

[Shaya]

It isn't.

We **** diddy.

 

[Judo777]

Way late but IC's are another artificial top tier IMO (this is only so true and a little exaggerated). If there was no LGL and a more liberal stage list they wouldn't seem near as insane. Like for real a Pit that decides to stay on the ledge all day can make it extremely hard for the IC's to deal with.

The only quality IC's have that I actually have a problem with (other than Nanas broke grab range that some gets you no matter what) is that we cant see Nana's health bar which is BS if you ask me. If Nana is at 215% Popo is at 0% and the other player (say Diddy) is at 1% and the game goes to time he loses despite the fact that IC's have practically lost their stock and Diddy hasn't.

 

[Tesh]

1. Is you are going to call them "artificial top tier" because of the LGL, then you might as well call everyone artificial top tier because MK can and would stomp all of the next best characters in the game with unlimited edgegrabs. ICs desyncs actually let them combat planking in ways other characters can't (like being able to edgehog cape AND smash MK out of it when he is forced to land on stage).


2.Also the backup climber doesn't count as anything. If you do a bunch of damage to pikmin or Wario's bike then it doesn't count for anything either. Nana is a tool of Popo.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Except that if you break Wario's bike or kill Olimar's pikmin, they don't lose half their offensive power, the ability to recover low, and the most powerful chaingrab in the game. They can always spawn new ones, and they don't have to die to do it.

If Popo loses Nana and he's at 0%, he's in trouble against Diddy with 1%. Most people would consider that as "being behind".

 

[DMG]

You could make the same argument though for "light" characters with a very tiny % lead over Snake. Jigglypuff at 20% vs Snake at 21%, and Snake is still the favorite.

You either try to have a "end all" victory condition, or you rematch. You definitely don't try to base things off who "should" win if the game went on for longer. The bike/pikmin example was bad obviously, but there's not an effective argument EVEN if you were able to see Nana's % that you should go by that for timeout.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

.

=/= hard counter

Falco loses to both IC's and Pika -2 (or 65-35) while marth's worst matchups are 60-40 and he only has 3 of them. Also do some research before you post, Falco goes even with 5 mid tiers and Marth goes even with 3.

The only mid tier characters that Falco might be even with are Kirby and Sheik. Marth is even / loses to ROB, even with Kirby, even with Sonic and DK is still kinda up in the air.

Marth:
40/60 MK
50/50 IC
50/50 Olimar (Arguably slightly in marth's)

Falco:
45/55 MK
35/65 IC
60/40 Olimar

5-5 vs ICs is very generous. Even if you agree with Shaya the tourney results of that match-up definitely push it slightly in IC favor, whereas Falco vs MK is closer to 5-5. I don't rely on the match-up chart. I was among the people who worked on it and I can 100% assure you that the methodology isn't very sound and if a new match-up chart is being made I will not contribute to it again.

Falco does do better against Diddy but Marth does signicantly better against snake and wario.

Marth and Falco are both even with Snake. Neither does 'significantly' better than the other. Wario has become a non-factor in the metagame, pretty much. Falco's match-ups vs MK, Olimar and Diddy Kong matter more.

Imo it's more like:

Marth:
MK 4 / 6
ICs 45 / 55
Olimar 5 / 5
Diddy 45 / 55
Snake 5 / 5
Pikachu 5 / 5
Wario 6 / 4
DDD 4 / 6

Falco:
MK 5 / 5
ICs 35 / 65
Olimar 6 / 4
Diddy 5 / 5
Snake 5 / 5
Pikachu 35 / 65
Wario 5 / 5
DDD 6 / 4

I find that spread vs top & high tiers to be a bit in Falco's favor as he does worse in only one match-up vs the top 5 and it's also the only one of those match-up he actually loses.
It is also often argued that ROB slightly beats Marth and Marth definitely doesn't have a favorable match-up against Kirby or Sonic at high level. If they are *not* even then it's in the opponent's favor, not in Marth's.

Don't get me wrong though. I still think Marth is a good character and at worst is solid high tier. But at this point a rise in the tier list is absolutely not warranted, let alone outplace Falco [who had better results than Marth in all recent nationals except SKTAR].

Gheb has some fairly radical views so I doubt he was referring to the MU chart.

People always think my views are radical because I don't blindly agree with the consensus but I'm confident that time will prove me right. I've been clowned more than just once in the past and then it turned out I was actually right. I don't care about the credit though. I just want people to smarten up more and find a consistent methodology they can agree with and by which they estimate a character [match-up chart is not a credible source!]. Most people don't even think through these things by themselves and just repeat some pre-chewed opinions that those guys with purple names have indoctrinated upon them. I prefer sticking to empirical facts

 

[GOofyGV]

I keep wondering why people think someone goes even vs mk.
Gheb Falco-MK is 45-55 at best.
Marth doesn't really lose from diddy and I think most diddy and marth mains agree with me actualy.
I honestly think that if marth knows how to use items that this mu is even. Or at least it should be.

If you add ddd then at least add all the high tiers and not only the one that beats marth in your mu list.
(lucario,TL and ZSS)

I honestly don't think you can say that what you say is prove. Falco and marth are to equal to each other.
their results are equaly and the same goes to their mu spread. Now tell me what makes Falco better then marth other then your own mu list that isn't even right?

 

[Steam]

Pretty much- the people who hate Marth have always ignored Marth's results because they want to see him do worse for some random reason. People like Steam have always been incapable of remaining objective when it comes to Marth for some reason with their heavy bias being disgustingly obvious from moment one.

except for a good period of time marth was placing no better than most mid tiers. wario too because no one used him. he had placings but certainly not good enough for where he used to be on the tier list, that's why he dropped though.

but no, just throw your hands in the air and say I'm some hater incapable of reason. that makes you look smart. (I seriously have no opinion on marth)

 

[NickRiddle]

Marth is bad, with very even MUs. I find his problem to be that he doesn't beat many characters badly, like most of top-tier. He just doesn't lose to anybody.

 

[infiniteV115]

except for a good period of time marth was placing no better than most mid tiers.

Mid tier is really ****ing big so I seriously doubt this. I doubt that at any given time, Marth was not-outplacing 50% or more of mid tier.

Can you show us these bad results or are you just assuming that he was placing badly in the same was you said he was placing badly recently even though he's been doing fantastically?

 

[C.J.]

=/= hard counter

Completely dependent on how bad you think a MU needs to be in order for it to be a hard counter/how you interpret MU ratios to be.

The only mid tier characters that Falco might be even with are Kirby and Sheik. Marth is even / loses to ROB, even with Kirby, even with Sonic and DK is still kinda up in the air.

Last I heard, DEHF said Kirby wins and I know more than a couple Sheiks believe that Sheik wins.

All of those MUs for Marth are definitely not the other's advantage; they're even. Other than MK and DDD, Marth doesn't lose to anyone... just goes even with everyone.

Marth:
MK 4 / 6
ICs Even
Olimar Even
Diddy Even
Snake I don't know, half the time I think it's even, half the time I think Marth wins 55:45
Marth Even
Pikachu Even
Wario 6 / 4
DDD 45:55

Falco:
MK 45 /55
ICs 35 / 65
Olimar 6 / 4
Diddy 5 / 5
Snake 5 / 5
Falco Even
Pikachu 35 / 65
Wario 6 / 4
DDD 6 / 4

I find that spread vs top & high tiers to be a bit in Falco's favor as he does worse in only one match-up vs the top 5 and it's also the only one of those match-up he actually loses.

I view it the exact opposite. Even if MK/Falco is even (which it really probably isn't- but it's close), they both lose to 2 characters in the top 9 (excluding the ditto, so top 10 if you want to count that). However, Marth's losing MUs are not as bad as Falco's; especially with IC becoming more and more common.

It is also often argued that ROB slightly beats Marth and Marth definitely doesn't have a favorable match-up against Kirby or Sonic at high level. If they are *not* even then it's in the opponent's favor, not in Marth's.

All even.

Don't get me wrong though. I still think Marth is a good character and at worst is solid high tier. But at this point a rise in the tier list is absolutely not warranted, let alone outplace Falco [who had better results than Marth in all recent nationals except SKTAR].

And WHOBO

Hasn't MikeNeko been getting consistent top3 or 4 recently as well? The few ones I remember off-hand had him being outplaced by Snake, MK, Olimar, and IC. Until SRT I don't remember the last time he was outplaced by a Falco.


@ Steam:
I remember that time period, and you were wrong then too. I had this conversation with you and got results of midtiers, high tiers, Falco, Wario, and Marth. Marth was consistently outplacing all the mid tiers and most high tiers (the exceptions being Nick Riddle and Esam at times), with the majority of the time the placing difference between Marth and Falco being one or two spots. I even said I was okay w/ Marth dropping, as long as Falco did as well. You were adamant about Falco still deserving his placement, despite results not proving it. But I'm not talking about this anymore because it's in the past and doesn't matter =)

 

[DMG]

Falco being 6:4 vs Wario I think is wrong, and I also think Shiek beats/closely goes even with Falco