Official BBR Tier List v7

[BJN39]

I here people state this alot, so i'm gonna address this real quick~

Lucario's high tier because he has the tools to deal with any situation, but none of them are outright broken~

He's fairly heavy, floaty enough to escape most BS combo's, has no blindspots, and good normals that allow him to combo and wall very well. The shieldstun and kill power he gains while at high percent also makes it so the opponent has to respect his pressure game. And of course ya know. His roll's godlike for both offense and defense matters.

He doesn't outright destroy anyone, but he's also not outright destroyed. He's given the tools to deal with any situation. He' doesn't excel greatly at anything, but he's not lacking in any other category either.

If you look at the previous tierlist Lucario's hardly moved at all. Its more like everyone else on the tierlist just moves around him. Nothing broken about him has come up, but no technique has been found to gay him out either.

It's almost like he's perpetually frozen in the metagame right now.

Honestly I think the only dumb thing about him is aura, but even that goes both ways.
...Sorry, that was a little tedious sounding wasn't it? ._.

Combo...
Anyways, I do think lucario is high tier, just more towards the bottom of high. I would think he's qualified for mid tier, but this kinda persuades me otherwise.

 

[infiniteV115]

Lucario should definitely stay out of mid tier. He belongs in high tier.

 

[Xyro77]

Lucario is NOT and will NEVER be mid tier. Aura alone is reason for this. Then you factor in his crazy combos and disjointed/long lasting hitboxes.

 

[Z'zgashi]

BJN, Lucario does in fact have legitimate combos. Like, even with Mr. Doom DI I doubt Lucario wouldnt be able to follow up. Dat fair too stronk.

 

[Orion*]

Combo...

son LOL
learn your stuff

I like how everyone is saying Jiggs' dacus is terrible when puffster and mink land kills/mixups with it all the time.

This is like.... the worst reasoning LMAO.
It's like saying dashing into people and spamming spotdodge is a great strategy because europe gets so much reward out of it.

Grab mother-****ing disagrees.

this. I love the fact that like everything does 10ish percent (other than dthrow, forget what that is by memory), so I don't have to think about damage to much, I can purely think about position advantage/followups.

 

[BSP]

Lucario in mid would be lulzy

 

[Z'zgashi]

This is like.... the worst reasoning LMAO.
It's like saying dashing into people and spamming spotdodge is a great strategy because europe gets so much reward out of it.

And thats why people tend to stay airborne with her.

 

[BJN39]

Yea, I guess what i meant is "brawl combos" you know, like 3-6 hits.

...
Right?

 

[infiniteV115]

***** I play ZSS, ****in ~18 hit combos on Fox biatch

 

[BJN39]

***** I play ZSS, ****in ~18 hit combos on Fox biatch

Yeah, I was about te edit my post to say: besides infinites, multi-jab, and ZSS.

 

[Life]

Lucario is high tier. Trust a Sonic main.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Lucario is high tier. Trust a Bowser main.

@BJN: Go to stamina mode, pick Luigi, go against Wolf. Combo everything infinitely to your heart's content.

 

[Luigi player]

Yeah, I was about te edit my post to say: besides infinites, multi-jab, and ZSS.

I see you're new.

There are many combos besides those, but most only work at low %.

 

[BJN39]

I see you're new.

There are many combos besides those, but most only work at low %.

Yeah, I know those were just off the top of my head. But yeah, I certainly don't know as much as I'm sure a lot of people who post on this thread know.
Really I should probably just stay quiet unless I have a question or know enough of what I'm talking about.

@Z'zgashi: Luigi vs Wolf? Is there some sort of cheap stuff in this? Or is it just dumb CPUs.

 

[SoulPech]

son LOL




This is like.... the worst reasoning LMAO.
It's like saying dashing into people and spamming spotdodge is a great strategy because europe gets so much reward out of it.

Jiggs' DACUS isn't terrible though. It comes out fast, it's one of Jiggs' "early" (loosely) kill moves (110%), easy to pull off, and it brings ledge pressure. If you hit the opponent close to the ledge, they're going off. There's also this trick where if you DACUS towards the ledge and if you hit on the opposite side, you slide off the edge.

 

[Z'zgashi]

@Z'zgashi: Luigi vs Wolf? Is there some sort of cheap stuff in this? Or is it just dumb CPUs.

Think Luigi's low percentage combos with jabs, grabs, uair, nair, bair, fair, utilt, you name it. Now imagine that the opponents that never have increased knockback. Now imagine Wolf with his big size, weight, and already easy as hell to juggle/combo self.

What do you get?

 

[BJN39]

I see... Interesting, now imagine if no knockback increase worked outside of stamina...

 

[Laem]

It's like saying dashing into people and spamming spotdodge is a great strategy because europe gets so much reward out of it.

? I don't get it

 

[Sunnysunny]

I see... Interesting, now imagine if no knockback increase worked outside of stamina...

Falco for broken as **** tier~

 

[Orion*]

And thats why people tend to stay airborne with her.

wat do you smoke

Jiggs' DACUS isn't terrible though. It comes out fast, it's one of Jiggs' "early" (loosely) kill moves (110%), easy to pull off, and it brings ledge pressure. If you hit the opponent close to the ledge, they're going off. There's also this trick where if you DACUS towards the ledge and if you hit on the opposite side, you slide off the edge.

u2

Please read what I posted. I said that it is useful.

I'm like 95% sure with proper DI it kills later than 110% on most characters, although tbh I like rarely get hit by said move so I will give you 5%

Ease of use is really subjective, and in all honesty shouldn't be in the discussion. In some ways I disagree with you. It's easy to dacus, yes. It's not easy to hit with mid match if you're playing let's say, an MK/Marth just spacing fairs.

The ledge snap can make it relatively safe in a lot of situations, yes. But practically it's not something to consider most of the time

The move is like frame 16ish. not fast btw
why does nobody look at frame data

 

[SoulPech]

u2

Please read what I posted. I said that it is useful.

I'm like 95% sure with proper DI it kills later than 110% on most characters, although tbh I like rarely get hit by said move so I will give you 5%

Ease of use is really subjective, and in all honesty shouldn't be in the discussion. In some ways I disagree with you. It's easy to dacus, yes. It's not easy to hit with mid match if you're playing let's say, an MK/Marth just spacing fairs.

The ledge snap can make it relatively safe in a lot of situations, yes. But practically it's not something to consider most of the time

The move is like frame 16ish. not fast btw
why does nobody look at frame data

I did read what you posted. No need to act condesending. It's a great tool to catch a lot of players off guard. Yeah it works on more than half of the characters, but not all. It is difficult with Marth and MK Fairs, but I've caught a couple Marths where they spaced Fairs, then they trip or incorrectly space, I DACUS, then they get killed off top. It's all about reading your opponent as to what they're going to do.

In regards of ease of use, it should be in the discussion because there are some characters where DACUS is harder to pull off. For example, Link's and Snake's DACUS, in my opinion, are very simple to puff off...but Falco's I have difficulty with. It's in discussion because it's one of Jiggs kill moves, which Puff players should learn how to do.

Ledge snap adds ledge pressure off the stage. I'm not saying it's something you have to do it everytime, but if you're far away and someone slowly gets up on a ledge, just DACUS to push them back off....then space a roll then bair, fair, or whatever you want to keep them off.

The move comes out fast, but it's super slow afterwards, which you can be punished for. It's like that with some DACUS' though, like Wario's or even Wolf's. It's why I'm saying when you use it, do it more then the opponent is towards the ledge so when you or the opponent slides off they cannot punish, or use it when you know for sure it's going to hit and kill.

Everytime you throw it out, it's a risk/reward siuation where you can either take stock/get better positioning, or lose a stock/get hit.

 

[infiniteV115]

But yeah, I certainly don't know as much as I'm sure a lot of people who post on this thread know.
Really I should probably just stay quiet unless I have a question or know enough of what I'm talking about.

Yup, that's pretty much how it goes around here.
When I first started posting (like 1.5 years ago probably) I was arguing with another random in the tier list thread (I think it was v5 lol) and we ended up derailing it and people started to hate both of us.

Then I stuck to questions and started going to tournaments and got better and began to understand the game and why the things I said were silly (though not really cause I was arguing that Snake should be 5th on the tier list and ZSS should be top 10...funny how that worked out LOL)

 

[Orion*]

I did read what you posted. No need to act condesending.

It's not even that I'm trying to be condescending, but moreso of a genuine belief that your understanding of how the games mechanics play out at a top level are extremely limited by the examples and descriptions that you post.

Yeah it works on more than half of the characters, but not all.

What does that even mean LMAO
it's not dacus magically is not effective againt certain characters. It's viability certainly, but the mechanic dies not change.

It is difficult with Marth and MK Fairs, but I've caught a couple Marths where they spaced Fairs, then they trip or incorrectly space, I DACUS, then they get killed off top. It's all about reading your opponent as to what they're going to do.

The situation you used sounds ********, why would marth dash after spacing fair away from jiggs. Sometimes perhaps there is a reason, but assuming he spaced right it doesn't seem like that would make the best sense.

Secondly, after that you assume they trip (the chances, and ROTFL at talking about reading after that). Then mispace. If you see a mispace you definitely should punish, however even then at even a mid/high level the margin of error for marth isn't to big in comparison to his other MU's vs jiggs.

In regards of ease of use, it should be in the discussion because there are some characters where DACUS is harder to pull off. For example, Link's and Snake's DACUS, in my opinion, are very simple to puff off...but Falco's I have difficulty with. It's in discussion because it's one of Jiggs kill moves, which Puff players should learn how to do.

I think literally all dacus's, including bdacus are easy. (unless the margin of error is under 10 frames, i.e. a really low single laser with falco, or during the landing/dead frames of an empty sh w/ no actions, or drop shield).

So that should mean that in regards to MU discussions we should assume all dacus's including falcos are easy enough to be able to pull of in all situations consistently, except oos or before silent lasers.

see what I did there?

Ledge snap adds ledge pressure off the stage. I'm not saying it's something you have to do it everytime, but if you're far away and someone slowly gets up on a ledge, just DACUS to push them back off....then space a roll then bair, fair, or whatever you want to keep them off.

This would be extremely character specific, and most of the time the best you could hope for is to reset to neutral, aka them being on the ledge.

Let's take a character with at best mediocre ledge options, such as Mario.
If he standing getups, either before or after 100% you have 4 frames to hit him before he shields, with a move that you have to react or predict the getup pretty early with.

Assuming you try to react with said move, it's going to be even harder to time. Knowing this, and knowing the fact that most good players will either shield, or buffer something after standard getup they will probably get out of the way.

Lets say they spot dodge or roll, both punishable options if you had a double read, but if you miss the 4 frames + extra few frames of startup from the defensive options, you're position is now reversed and you are now in a position to be punished.

Let's say you just picked an option like sh fair instead. Because you can always opt to just DI back and remain safe, and keep your opponent on the ledge with an uncommitted option, even if you misread you can always remain safe. If you hesitate and your opponent got up but you backed off, if they buffered a roll or a spot dodge without thinking you are in range to punish, and if they do nothing you still have stage control.

The move comes out fast, but it's super slow afterwards, which you can be punished for. It's like that with some DACUS' though, like Wario's or even Wolf's. It's why I'm saying when you use it, do it more then the opponent is towards the ledge so when you or the opponent slides off they cannot punish, or use it when you know for sure it's going to hit and kill.

The moves startup is not fast. Wario's dacus I won't even go into, but at least wolfs has broken disjoint, combo ability, and solid reward. Even then it's not really spammable.

Pushing to the ledge with jigg's dacus isn't even that great because of the range and commitment to the move that she has to have before she even does it.

Everytime you throw it out, it's a risk/reward siuation where you can either take stock/get better positioning, or lose a stock/get hit.

There are very few situations where I could genuinely see you actually getting better positions with dacus, if any at all. TBQH i think if I know you are going to dacus me, I could probably punish you with a lot of characters even if I was shielding at the ledge.

Getting hit vs not getting hit is not a good thing for jiggs to go through, so the only time it's really worth it to do is when it will definitely kill even with solid sdi.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Orion are you bored or something

I mean jigglypuff really

 

[Luigi player]

yeah jiggs is like the worst char who cares about that thing I hope it wont be in SSB4

 

[ぱみゅ]

I actually DO hope Jigglypuff to be in SSB4 so people don't forget about G1 (Pokémon Trainer will probably either disappear or get replaced by one of a newer generation).
I also hope her to become at least a decent character....

 

[Luigi player]

^ Mewtwo though, but let's not get off topic. :d

 

[DMG]

Pikachu is G1.......

....................................

 

[infiniteV115]

PT is not going to be replaced by a newer generation lol. If so then there wouldn't have been a point in making him have the Gen 1 starters even after Gen 4 game out

 

[DMG]

CYNDAQUIL!

asdjia

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Yo.

I would main furret.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Nidokiiiiingggggggggg


And Orion, im sorry I dont know everything there is to know about probably THE most underplayed and one of the worst characters in the game.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

^ I do though

Nor did i realize something was happening about puff.

Whats happening about puff.

DACUS is very situational. Kills pretty late. I prefer Utilt.

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

Everybody knows that rollout is Jiggz's most reliable killing move. That and dash attack.

 

[dettadeus]

Everybody knows that rollout is Jiggz's most reliable killing move. That and dash attack.

Whenever I'm recovering from up high I start charging rollout then tell my opponent not to challenge it and to just stand on a platform or something.

They jump out, try to hit me and get killed 90% of the time.

Just respect Rollout, guys.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

If your friend was smart enough to just get hit by roll out off the edge, you'd just roll to your death.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Edgeguard with your face! First against Ike and Luigi, now against Jigglypuff!

 

[DMG]

Edgeguard with your face! First against Ike* and Luigi, now against Jigglypuff!

*- Brawl Ike, not P:M Ike

 

[Orion*]

Orion are you bored or something

I mean jigglypuff really

Regardless of character, getting people to understand the physics of the game is important.

yeah jiggs is like the worst char who cares about that thing I hope it wont be in SSB4

Jiggs is alright

Nidokiiiiingggggggggg


And Orion, im sorry I dont know everything there is to know about probably THE most underplayed and one of the worst characters in the game.

You don't need to understand everything about jigglypuff, but moreso just having a solid foundation on understanding brawl at it's core and it will cue you in on how the rest of the game works.

I don't know everything about this game, and LOL I'm not trying to. But I do know that, let's say take a character like Bowser who I don't know a lot about outside of his play where to reach me in tournament. I'm pretty confident from a core understanding of brawl, regardless of what technology the said character used I wouldn't be caught to off guard because I understand his fundamentals.

Inb4 zigsta plays me and learns how to break the game with full screen crossup usmash dacus's

 

[SoulPech]

DACUS is very situational. Kills pretty late. I prefer Utilt.

which is pretty much what I was trying to say, except I dont like utilt.