Official BBR Tier List v6

[C.J.]

I was under the impression that his recent win at the Socal regional he only used MK vs Havok. He still beat Tyrant and others with solo Ness.

 

[z00ted]

Yep.

Only MK versus Havok.

 

[DiskaSM]

I was under the impression that his recent win at the Socal regional he only used MK vs Havok. He still beat Tyrant and others with solo Ness.

Yes, though I'm pretty sure he would have lost to Havok's Snake without MK. But I'm not just talking about that one tournament; he's had other wins with MK.

 

[Tesh]

I wonder who he will pick up for Marth/Snake now.

Diska, he has still taken alot of wins with Ness, even though he uses MK to get past certain hurdles.

 

[C.J.]

In all honesty, I don't care how he places with whoever. The important thing is who he does beat with Ness. He can get first or last, it doesn't matter how he places. The important thing is which players he beats with Ness. Looking at that, he has an impressive list of wins.

 

[Tomato]

As a Ness player, I can see why a lot of people avoid Ness and why he isn't as popular. Although some of the reasons are superficial, he also plays a lot differently than a majority of the cast in my opinion, although not to the same degree as Yoshi. For one, he's not a particularly 'edgy' or 'cool' looking character, he's just some Asian kid in a hat with a striped shirt. The first time you pick up a game like Brawl, chances are you are going to pick either A, a character you're familiar with, or B, a character that looks like he can kick ***. Ness is neither of those. First impressions aren't the most important, but it plays a role. Chances are most players would find another character they feel more comfortable playing with before they would even try Ness out. Again, this is purely speculation based on my own experience, especially considering I am the only Ness player amongst my friends who I've played Smash with --- None of them won't go anywhere near him.

He isn't much of a 'pick up and play' character either. Takes a while to learn what combos work best and what moves are best for what situations. The jump takes some time to get used to, and utilizing PK Thunder takes a lot of practice. I would say his learning curve is a big larger than many other characters. Obviously not all, but I'd say he's a harder character to learn and use effectively. Also, being a lower-tier character is also discouraging, since I feel like a lot of people try to use high tier characters in hopes of having success with less actual skill. The popularity/success project has pretty much proven that.

That being said, someone who knows what they're doing with a supposedly lesser character like Ness can be very effective. FOW has been proving this recently, and Shaky's performance at MLG Colombus also proved that Ness is very much viable in tournament play. I don't remember who Shaky played outside of his matchup against Judge's MK (which got a fair amount of attention), but still placing 11th at such a large event with a lower-end character is impressive. I forget which category, but on Flayl's low-tier project Ness is ranked highest for something.

As far as Ness's placement, I'd say it's pretty spot on. There aren't too many characters on the high end that completely obliterate him, but he is definitely not even, but he can easily handle the lower half of the cast, which while not being the most impressive feat, still warrants him to be placed at least where he is. If there is some breakthrough where people decide that Ness is suddenly awesome against certain characters (He does seem to do pretty well against MK, although that will soon be irrelevant), I can't see him moving up too much, and will only go down if characters below him improve in an MK-less tier list.

What do you guys think?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Ness has like no ledge options, every time I see a top player get hit by legehop fair I :\

 

[Spelt]

Obviously you should give them some advice.

 

[infiniteV115]

They don't get CG'd often. But it is defiantly a damage builder. I guess it is totally possible to avoid all grabs but that isn't the problem.

Grabbing =/=CGing. DDD can't CG MK. DDD can't CG ZSS. DDD can't CG Pikachu. Etc.

Same with Pikachu, like Lucario and Olimar.

Just to mention, I only mainly said Pika was all about the chaingrab just to show you how dumb you guys sound saying D3 is all about the chaingrab.

Also, for the DI thing. It is true that most combos aren't legit like D3's chaingrab. I just mentioned bair as a thing you can do on Wario since you guys said he couldn't do anything, which is definitely wrong. It's been used in tourneys before. (Watch 4God)

You guys should probably stop talking about D3. I'm pretty sure Coney and 4God can kick ur ***** with D3 easily at Apex.

When did I say that D3 is only about the chaingrab?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Grabbing =/=CGing. DDD can't CG MK. DDD can't CG ZSS. DDD can't CG Pikachu. Etc.

DDD could tech chase 'em, though.

Not that it'd help a lot but it is an option.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Z'zgashi]

DDD could tech chase 'em, though.

Not that it'd help a lot but it is an option.

Smooth Criminal

He actually cant. His running speed is too slow for him to do anything aside from maybe getting a lucky gordo if they roll away from him any time past like... 40%.

 

[Laem]

He actually cant. His running speed is too slow for him to do anything aside from maybe getting a lucky gordo if they roll away from him any time past like... 40%.

Implying d3's dthrow doesn't have set knockback
D3's tech chase is idd garbage tho

 

[-LzR-]

Why can't I avoid the techchase
I try to like upB with G&W and DI up but I just get regrabbed what the ****.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

The people who say Dedede can't techchase are dumb.

*places on ignore*

 

[Doc King]

He actually cant. His running speed is too slow for him to do anything aside from maybe getting a lucky gordo if they roll away from him any time past like... 40%.

Thats so wrong. I've seen D3 players use tech chasing and they're successful. Also, ever heard of the buuman trap? The buuman trap is such a great option on the edge for characters. I also have some cool facts on D3's tech chasing. http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=191110

You guys seem to overrate speed too much. I mean, speed is an important factor, but it's not everything. Like, Melee Ganon was able to one tech chase a Falco with his down b move to a kill (I think a kill).

Also, you can grab one of ZSS's suit pieces and just read a rolling move of hers and just throw it at her. It actually works well.

Why can't I avoid the techchase
I try to like upB with G&W and DI up but I just get regrabbed what the ****.

Because, double jump and b moves come out the slowest amount of time. It gives D3 the ability to regrab him.

The people who say Dedede can't techchase are dumb.

*places on ignore*

lol @ This! ^

Edit: You can do this similar to chaingrabbing thing on Squirtle where you can just dash grab him when he's air released and repeat until he's off of the stage.

 

[Flayl]

I wonder who he will pick up for Marth/Snake now.

Diska, he has still taken alot of wins with Ness, even though he uses MK to get past certain hurdles.

Dedede! He could be like reverse Coney!

 

[Steam]

You guys seem to overrate speed too much. I mean, speed is an important factor, but it's not everything. Like, Melee Ganon was able to one tech chase a Falco with his down b move to a kill (I think a kill).

don't try comparing melee and brawl like that. besides Dthrow to DownB is a true combo on falco. though it's useful for punishing getups as well. Ganon is only even kinda viable because he hits like a bus full of fat people and he's not THAT slow.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Meh, my bad then, I will retract my statement on D3 there.

 

[Doc King]

don't try comparing melee and brawl like that. besides Dthrow to DownB is a true combo on falco. though it's useful for punishing getups as well. Ganon is only even kinda viable because he hits like a bus full of fat people and he's not THAT slow.

D3 being slow doesn't make him unviable. I mean he has the range, power, and combos, which makes him a good character. I mean, what other weaknesses does he have besides huge hurtbox and slow speed? Those are his only weaknesses and they're pretty big weaknesses, but his strengths make him so well, he's just not top tier viable.

I mean Lucas is pretty moble, but his moves are terrible and he suffers from grab release stuff from Marth and DK. Falcon is fast, but he has like one of the worst movesets in the game.

Snake is kind of slow in some ways (Mainly air attacks), but his tilts and grenades make up for it like D3's chaingrabs/grabs and air attacks make up for his slow speed.

In conclusion, speed isn't the only important factor.

Meh, my bad then, I will retract my statement on D3 there.

Good. Now I can (in some way) respect you more.

 

[-LzR-]

You should tell the opposite. Like, what Dedede is good at. That's one thing, dthrow. Other than that, he is garbage.

 

[Doc King]

You should tell the opposite. Like, what Dedede is good at. That's one thing, dthrow. Other than that, he is garbage.

This is proof that you don't know **** about D3. All of his air attacks are good. He has a good edge guarding game with things like bair, rco lag punishing, fair, having 4 jumps, etc. He has good range. He has amazing survivability (And the best vertical survivability). Best spot dodge. Slope infinites. Alright planking game (Mainly good on ). Good followups and infinites on some characters. Air release stuff on and along with some ground release stuff on and .

There's probably more I can mention, but, this is a lot of good/decent/great stuff that he can do.

This is like saying is bad because he only has one good thing which is chaingrab, when he has other things like desynching, blizzard, and getting out of infinites, combos, and chaingrabs.

 

[Conviction]

Instead alluding to them, how about actually explaining those other qualities

 

[ErikG]

Alright planking game (Mainly good on ). Good followups and infinites on some characters. Air release stuff on and along with some ground release stuff on and .

This applies to most characters.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

This is proof that you don't know **** about D3. All of his air attacks are good. He has a good edge guarding game with things like bair, rco lag punishing, fair, having 4 jumps, etc. He has good range. He has amazing survivability (And the best vertical survivability). Best spot dodge. Slope infinites. Alright planking game (Mainly good on ). Good followups and infinites on some characters. Air release stuff on and along with some ground release stuff on and .

There's probably more I can mention, but, this is a lot of good/decent/great stuff that he can do.

Bair and dair are good. Nair, fair and maaaaaybe up air aren't exceptional.

RCO lag is negligible, his horizontal survivability is garbage, I'd say Link's spotdodge is just as good, and his planking sucks since if he does something he falls to his death. :/

Edit: Actually, fair is decent. It's safe and has a big hitbox, it's just a bit slow.

 

[Doc King]

This applies to most characters.

It does. It's still a good thing that he can do.

Bair and dair are good. Nair, fair and maaaaaybe up air aren't exceptional.

RCO lag is negligible, his horizontal survivability is garbage, I'd say Link's spotdodge is just as good, and his planking sucks since if he does something he falls to his death. :/

Edit: Actually, fair is decent. It's safe and has a big hitbox, it's just a bit slow.

Bair and Dair are good. Up air is only decent. Nair is just good for a combo to an up tilt and just for landing something quick, otherwise, it's not that good. Fair is alright (It's pretty good for punishing Snake's recovery).

Well, D3 can land good rco punishes with his d throw and Squirtle's air release and can pressure characters with his long f tilt so he doesn't get attacked. That would be debatable imo. Horizontal survivability is actually alright. However, recovering from something like Fox's lazers would be painful or Falco's lazers or Pit's arrows. He still has a good spot dodge and one of the best. His planking is only good on Falco.

 

[BMC]

This is proof that you don't know **** about D3. All of his air attacks are good. He has a good edge guarding game with things like bair, rco lag punishing, fair, having 4 jumps, etc. He has good range. He has amazing survivability (And the best vertical survivability). Best spot dodge. Slope infinites. Alright planking game (Mainly good on ). Good followups and infinites on some characters. Air release stuff on and along with some ground release stuff on and .

There's probably more I can mention, but, this is a lot of good/decent/great stuff that he can do.

Well, if there is more that you can mention, you should probably go ahead and mention his other good/decent/great stuff he can do because everything you mentioned is either negligible or it's not unique to him. Best spot dodge? Isn't Falco's just as good, if not better? Slope infinites involve his chaingrab, and you have been arguing that there is more to D3 than just the chaingrab. Falco does not have many, if any, options against planking on most characters. You can't plank anyway.(LGL) If you're talking at air planking, D3 has the fastest fall speed. Those four jumps aren't going to help him stay in the air. Every character in the game has something they can do off an air release on Wario.(Why do you think Peach wins that matchup?) He isn't the only character with ground release tricks on Ness and Lucas either.(Marth, DK, Peach, etc.)

 

[Conviction]

Instead alluding to them, how about actually explaining those other qualities

Still no response.

 

[Steam]

honestly D3's air game is only decent because of the CG and his MONSTER grab range. otherwise people would just get in his face all day because they wouldn't have to always play around the CG. The CG makes pretty much everything D3 has better since you have to respect it. Similar to how Nado and shuttle loop make everything MK has better. In a lot of situations you have to respect those moves, making everything else more effective.

 

[Doc King]

Instead alluding to them, how about actually explaining those other qualities

I've done it a million times, but they've gotten completely ignored. If you want me to explain, please actually listen.

honestly D3's air game is only decent because of the CG and his MONSTER grab range. otherwise people would just get in his face all day because they wouldn't have to always play around the CG. The CG makes pretty much everything D3 has better since you have to respect it. Similar to how Nado and shuttle loop make everything MK has better. In a lot of situations you have to respect those moves, making everything else more effective.

The chaingrab doesn't really have to do with his air game that much outside the fact that it can send ppl off of the stage along with air releasing Squirtle to a dash grab. His air attacks are good and he has 4 jumps. He can also do things like bair string for damage racking and gimping. A lot of his air attacks are disjointed hitboxes or big hitboxes and don't have much lag to them.

 

[Steam]

The chaingrab doesn't really have to do with his air game that much outside the fact that it can send ppl off of the stage along with air releasing Squirtle to a dash grab.

if you really think that's the case then you really don't understand much about D3 or how the game works in general.

 

[BMC]

I've done it a million times, but they've gotten completely ignored. If you want me to explain, please actually listen.

Nope. Pretty sure you never have. There wouldn't be this many people still asking you the same question if you've already explained it a "million" times.

Since when can D3 bair string? D3 isn't Peach. He can't ground float. He has terrible horizontal air speed too.

You completely missed what Steam was saying about the relationship between D3's CG and his air game too.

Everyone, it seems like, can find fault in every post you make.

 

[Spelt]

The best part is that everyone here knew he would just ignore everything everyone just said and continue talking in circles, and now you're all gonna do the same thing aaaaall over again.

It's funny because it's still happening.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Since when can D3 bair string?

To be totally fair, Dedede's sourspot/strong bair can string at low percentages, especially offstage.

The move is really fast, and he can pull two off in a short hop.

 

[infiniteV115]

I'm just waiting for Hippieslayer to post more pictures.

 

[Xnpio]

It's funny because it's still happening.

Spelt is so correct.

Why do you guys keep asking Doc King to explain about Dedede? I feel like the same thing happens every single time, and everyone rages about it.

 

[BMC]

Spelt is so correct.

Why do you guys keep asking Doc King to explain about Dedede? I feel like the same thing happens every single time, and everyone rages about it.

Eh, keeps the thread alive.

The point of this thread is to discuss and debate the respective placing of each individual character on the tier list. Even if you're arguing with the same person over and over again. Debates in these threads always get heated.

 

[Vinylic.]

Then they should review the D3 stuff on a specific match (video) to show proof.

Otherwise, it'll just continue to become more ridiculous.

 

[Steam]

k so now that marth underachieved again can he drop below olimar and Ice climbers? he's clearly shown he's not the same caliber of character.

 

[theunabletable]

man, good thing MK's getting banned tomorrow, it's clear Japan has trash MKs and their results never having MK dominating don't mean anything, and there's nothing we can do to beat MKs, or stop the overcentralization

 

[BSP]

....I'm thinking it's the stages

We need to talk