Official BBR Tier List v6

[z00ted]

alright, im not even going to respond because I will start drama

 

[Player-1]

There was only one person going all Diddy in tourney at CoT5 being ADHD, Kai was the other using Sonic as well and getting last in pro bracket and dapuffster using jiggz too.

 

[Vermanubis]

@Verm

Despite Ganon's flaws, you don't think that bottom tier last place will ever change, at least being above the current second worst?
Ganon's survivability offsets him getting gimped offstage as long as he has good DI. Ganon even has some ledgedrop options.

Ganon also has killpower, something hardly anyone in lowtier has, + a somewhat usable aerial grab when the time calls. I think there's still hope, at least.

I think, personally, Ganon is doomed to last place. That doesn't mean the player behind him can't put in work and show results that belie his true abilities, but I think in strict theory, Ganon is definitely where he belongs. He has amazing options in certain circumstances, but the problem is, is if the person is wise to what Ganon can do, he's virtually helpless outside of the ingenuity of the player behind him. A good way to put it would be that if Ganon wins, it's not anything Ganon did, rather, what the player did.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Coney is also infamous for winning Dedede's problem matchups but losing the ones he should be winning.

Spoiler

Coney is also 100x better than every single brawl player in the world.

Not to say I disagree with you, I personally don't enjoy the matchup on ZSS's side of it, but I still think there's a solid lean towards ZSS's favor in it.

AGREED. Coney is one the best smashers in the world in my opinion.

Every ****ing D3 now does SHAD>Utilt like they been doing it since 08. DA CONEY~!

alright, im not even going to respond because I will start drama

Oh Ill <3.

There was only one person going all Diddy in tourney at CoT5 being ADHD, Kai was the other using Sonic as well and getting last in pro bracket and dapuffster using jiggz too.

Kai went Diddy vs me in pro bracket at Cot5. I was unaware he went any Sonic at all.

 

[Sails]

There was only one person going all Diddy in tourney at CoT5 being ADHD, Kai was the other using Sonic as well and getting last in pro bracket and dapuffster using jiggz too.

Hi.

I took 5th/43 in Amateur bracket

Notably taking out Kirin and Mav.

 

[Player-1]

I thought we were talking about pro bracket...? That's what you used for bizkit example.

Next to Kai's name in the results shows sonic so I'm just going off of that

 

[Alien Vision]

I think, personally, Ganon is doomed to last place. That doesn't mean the player behind him can't put in work and show results that belie his true abilities, but I think in strict theory, Ganon is definitely where he belongs. He has amazing options in certain circumstances, but the problem is, is if the person is wise to what Ganon can do, he's virtually helpless outside of the ingenuity of the player behind him.

I agree. My will as a Ganondorf player is top tier. Nobody can take away our will. Only ourselves can.

 

[z00ted]

Oh Ill <3.

If I ever see meet you or Kain in bracket, or even have the opportunity to see you in the middle of the street, you better be prepared to get the living **** money matched out of you.

 

[Sails]

I thought we were talking about pro bracket...? That's what you used for bizkit example.

Next to Kai's name in the results shows sonic so I'm just going off of that

Correct me if I'm wrong but I didn't see any Snakes in AM Bracket either, though. I'm going off of AM/Pro combined.

 

[Kewkky]

Ganon seems to do pretty good if your mindgames are good..

Well, since better mindgames essentially means better player...

"Ganon seems to do pretty good if a better player uses him".

Well DUH.

 

[Vermanubis]

I agree. My will as a Ganondorf player is top tier. Nobody can take away your will. Only ourselves can.

Nobody can strip true Ganon mains of their will, my brother.

The will of a Ganondorf main is the will of the cosmos.

 

[z00ted]

Illmatic, go take down Atomsk like Kain did and maybe I'll give Peach's positioning a second glance.

/implying Peach mains have no top level wins

 

[Blissard]

didn't budge for some reason

Which character(s) did you think should be below Olimar? Imo he should go up eventually, but it's not yet time for him to be above IC's/Wario

Also Jigglypuff in H tier is ridiculous. Most of the people who hate on her probably haven't even played a decent Jiggs.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Guess I need to beat a bunch of players with the 3rd worst character in the game now.


This is a terrible day for Jigglypuff

 

[Alien Vision]

Nobody can strip true Ganon mains of their will, my brother.

The will of a Ganondorf main is the will of the cosmos.

We will never fully understand the cosmos. What we can do, is fully understand ourselves, and represent it; by showing what we can do with all of the odds weighing against us.

 

[Hippieslayer]

AGREED. Coney is one the best smashers in the world in my opinion.

Every ****ing D3 now does SHAD>Utilt like they been doing it since 08. DA CONEY~!


Oh Ill <3.

Kai went Diddy vs me in pro bracket at Cot5. I was unaware he went any Sonic at all.

Well Coney isn't the only DDD I've seen making the Zss vs DDD matchup seem a lot closer than 60:40 :O That being said I cba to dig up sources for theese claims so you dont need to take me seriously anyway.

 

[Yikarur]

Semifer (Wolf) is ranked 3rd in the german PR

 

[Seagull Joe]

Semifer (Wolf) is ranked 3rd in the german PR

Thanks! I didn't know what position he was, but knew was on it.

T is ranked too?

 

[DtJ Composer]

(+1) (-1)

OMG Cage we did it.
We beat the *******s of city hall!

But who will lead us in the rebuilding process?

 

[Yikarur]

There is no dutch PR and he always plays Dedede when it matters

 

[Player-1]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I didn't see any Snakes in AM Bracket either, though. I'm going off of AM/Pro combined.

I really don't consider AM bracket a good source of data. For one, it doesn't look like it was for any money (although I could be wrong, but I didn't see anything in the results/listing thread). And it's not representing a top level of play which is really the only valid data we can use, else this tier list would look MUCH different.

 

[Seagull Joe]

There is no dutch PR and he always plays Dedede when it matters

That's smart and ah.

I really don't consider AM bracket a good source of data. For one, it doesn't look like it was for any money (although I could be wrong, but I didn't see anything in the results/listing thread). And it's not representing a top level of play which is really the only valid data we can use, else this tier list would look MUCH different.

1st got 20 bucks. 2nd got 10 bucks. 3rd got 5 bucks.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

@Illmatic: If Peach is so good, go place at something.

I'm not talking about your skill level personally. You're good. Great. There are a lot of really good Peach players. But she's not good. You are limited, because you play Peach. If there's some factor that makes Peach better, exploit it and start winning. If you -- someone, even -- can't do that, then she isn't better. I'm not sure what else there is to say about it.

Peach mains have been *****ing and moaning about how low Peach is since the beginning of time but their placements have by and large remained mediocre, and it's not because you guys are bad players because you certainly aren't. Peach has perhaps the strongest talent pool next to like the top 3. So where's the beef (well, there's King Beef I guess)?

 

[Exceladon City]

I understand this.

Competition in Texas is much harder for me, especially as a Peach main.
Look at who is below Kain in Illinois.
Look at who is above me in the Houston PR.

I could easily meet Kain in GF at almost any tournament in Illinois.
Take into consideration location when bringing forward evidence like this.
The same goes for Excel Zero. He's practically one of the only top players in PR.

First of all, that ego is not needed in this thread.

Secondly, Wolf is better than Peach hands down. Like why is that even an argument? Wolf has a better air game, a better ground game, better defense, better kill power and kill moves for that matter too. Match up wise he loses horribly to what, Wario (Ones that know the CG)/D3? Pikachu isn't even common and most Wolf mains are better than the run of the mill Pika player.
Peach, on the other hand gets SMACKED by MK/Snake/Falco. 3 characters that show up rather frequently and give Peach hell. Not to mention that aside from jab, Peach isn't good on the ground and she's slow as balls in the air. So anyone that can exploit that gives her an even harder time. Turnips aren't even threatening. Peach is leagues behind Wolf.

Illmatic, go take down Atomsk like Kain did and maybe I'll give Peach's positioning a second glance.

You guys are also assuming Kain is the only Wolf getting results. Choice, Seagull, Holmes, Semifer, and there's probably more, are bringing in the $$$.

^This. Emphasis on Seagull, he's been bringing in mad results as of late.

 

[Kole]

hooray for wolf

 

[stingers]

Stingers, your sarcasm doesn't compensate for the lack of common sense. Ganon's more likely to win in the event of the opponent's ignorance of the MU, which is a harmful consideration to the integrity of the tier list, since it's based off of people playing at equal skill with knowledge of the MUs. If someone knew the Ganon and Falcon MUs equally well, it stands to reason they would probably have a harder time with Falcon. Falcon is like a mosquito, whereas Ganon is a quarterback (). If a quarterback is chasing at you in a straight line, fully-geared, his momentum will limit his options, so his best hope is for you to stand there hapless, mouth agape, pants soiled, bladder emptied, eagerly awaiting 666 megatons of pure, unadulterated doom. The mosquito, however, is more innocuous, but a hell of a lot harder to keep track of and play keep away from.

i dont think its so clear cut...in brawl most characters share a lot of the same options. and in most cases, those options are all that are really needed to put up somewhat of an equal fight. some chars have better personal attributes than others, but in the end it mostly comes down to what your moveset offers you moreso than those. and here's the thing with falcon/ganon: their moveset isnt different at all in terms of what options they can cover. and no lie, those options are pretty much complete ****, lol. both chars are awful.
so in order for either of these chars to deal damage at all, they're pretty much relying on reads and then subsequent juggles until they can get another read to get their opponent back in the air, since there is little either char can do to force it. when you're dealing with characters who absolutely NEED reads to get in, you're going to have trouble no matter what. the thing is, ganon needs far less reads than falcon does to get a kill, since he can get maybe 25-35 damage with 2 hits. falcon on the other hand, needs like...3-4 hits to get that much, and the longer you're relying on your speed to do all the work for you, the more time your opponent has to get out and make you work for another tiny hit again.
does falcons speed give him an EASIER time of getting those beginning hits in? sure, but the difference is negligible when you're not killing until 180 and you need far, far more reads than the ganon does to get to that point.
in the end, who's more likely to win? the ganon main. and thats my whole point.

 

[Doc King]

First of all, that ego is not needed in this thread.

Secondly, Wolf is better than Peach hands down. Like why is that even an argument? Wolf has a better air game, a better ground game, better defense, better kill power and kill moves for that matter too. Match up wise he loses horribly to what, Wario (Ones that know the CG)/D3? Pikachu isn't even common and most Wolf mains are better than the run of the mill Pika player.
Peach, on the other hand gets SMACKED by MK/Snake/Falco. 3 characters that show up rather frequently and give Peach hell. Not to mention that aside from jab, Peach isn't good on the ground and she's slow as balls in the air. So anyone that can exploit that gives her an even harder time. Turnips aren't even threatening. Peach is leagues behind Wolf.




^This. Emphasis on Seagull, he's been bringing in mad results as of late.

Don't forget that King Dedede does mad good against peach (Well at least my Dedede does )

I actually think that Wolf is better at fighting Dedede than Peach is.

 

[Krystedez]

He's so...plain, though. He's not that special. He's hanging out with characters comparable to him now, I feel.

Unlike Kewwky's one-man Kirby army being the advocate for some great potential for Kirby, Pit has realistic and formidable options and matchups. He's not plain, look at his approach options and amazing offstage and long-distance options. Arrows, footstools, u-airs, wings of icarus refresh chasing, and one of the best aerial kill moves in the game capable of killing Dedede as early as 120ish 130ish percent in the middle of stages like Frigate, BF, and SV.

He's also got good spacing options offstage with his forward air if you time it, because for the most part you can't see the startup frames, it's like he hides his blades before poking them out. You have to get in tempo like a marth and continue to fair, or bring out an fair earlier than your opponent expects. These are just a few of his options. Ever get tired of being shuttle looped by MK, btw? Throw out a bair and fall on them, they get hit nearly every time because of how long bair stays out (sometimes you can even sweetspot it, but the point is, it saves you.)

I haven't even touched on his arrow looping and WoI mind-games. There IS potential, potential that no one sees. I would say Pit deserved to stay where he belonged, he wasn't hurting anyone being where he was. But alas.

And finally, look at his spread, and tell me that you think he belongs in E-tier based on that. (and don't tell me it was controversial, because we let a LOT of the matchups be accepted on THE OPPONENT'S decision)

I remember when Pit was first announced and I saw his move set and saw in in videos, I thought "this guy is going to be high tier undoubtedly and likely really annoying to play against." Only one of those predictions came true, it seems.

It's hard to talk about Pit's tier placement, because I just don't think we have a Pit player that we can say is a top-level player. I think it's easiest to say this about Pit of the entire cast, actually.

The issue is that we have a dozen high-mid level Pit players and none of them manage to make any sort of statement about their character's viability with placings. Pit has about 100 Kismets but no DEHFs. Is that because all of your DEHFs play another character? Does Pit have the same problem Marth has relative to Meta Knight? I would argue that he probably does, but it doesn't matter at this point because he just isn't a factor at tournaments. No one ever worried about playing a good Pit.

Personally I just don't think he's that great. His aerials have a great deal of lag and aren't very flexible, one of his primary kill moves is a textbook lesson in SDI, two out of his three smashes are only good situationally and don't kill well, his specials are gimmicky and useful in only a handful of match-ups, his grab-range is terrible, and that's just the obvious stuff.

Well for your "personally" part, read above. Also, down smash can kill pretty easily if you keep it fresh and even then you can get early kills for sending spacies, olimar, lucario, DK, low-tiers, and even Snake, Diddy, Pikachu, Marth at that weird angle. All of these characters' off stage game at the medium to low part of the stage all lack compared to Pit's offstage game, with Pikachu and Marth giving the most trouble but still it is very dangerous to be offstage with Pit that far. Dsmash isn't an instant gratification move like MK's, you have to follow up on it because it's trajectory is so useful.

Fsmash can be spaced and trick the opponent to SDI differently, or not be able to at all because of how fast it is. You can't be simple simon walk up and fsmash every 10 seconds.

I agree with most of your post though about top-level players. US's only great Pit player hasn't attended a tourney for a long while (Koolaid), and then we can't look at Japanese players because they can't offer their input, even though it's clear as day how Pit does in a similar competitive environment over there. We may not have a DEHF-Pit or even an ALLY-Pit, but we certainly have a large player-base that keeps getting ignored.

Not to hate on Pit he has a lot of potential. But I think he is about where he belongs. Pit has 2 big problems. His moves are slow as balls and his sword isn't trancendant. These are very large problems because he gets out sped and or clanked everywhere.

He belongs where he used to be Judo, and you know it... You're talking about Pit from a Sheik's perspective, his moves aren't slow by any means, slow as balls is like Charizard or Bowser. His sword moves don't have to be transcendent in priority in order for him to put up a fight against even God-tier Meta Knight. He just has to space well like Marth does, except he has offstage and long-range combat to make up for his less-than-shiek priority

He gets gimped easily, he's easily telegraphed, his glide is balls...

What is with everyone's affiliation with balls today? @_@... Anyways, he isn't gimped easily. His moves being telegraphed is simply a misconception that people have when they play "that one pit player" in their region that uses Fsmash more than he should be comfortable admitting in a 10 second span, and his glide isn't that bad (lolCharizard), it has some amazing range to the glair. He can actually manuever better than MK with his glide imo. Sure, it's bad against MK, and bad full frontal on shield (if not poked), but if you time it you can go over and behind the opponent with a glide, turn around and attack their shield with something safer because they're facing away.

Hell naw, Kirby is superior to Pit (ROB is about the same as Kirby though, IMO). Then again... *looks everywhere in the website* ... I'm the only Brawl Kirby advocate anywhere. :|

Oh Kewkky Kewkky Kewkky... If anything Kirby belongs below Random at least with his buddy Rob, and Pit belongs above Random. Even then, I can't believe my or any one's character is subjected to being compared to a choice of picking random having a more reliable matchup spread and chance of winning... wow.

 

[Exceladon City]

Don't forget that King Dedede does mad good against peach (Well at least my Dedede does )

I didn't know if it was a -1 or -2. I don't factor in -1s. -2s however...

 

[pwiito]

There's too many randoms in the bbr for me to even take this seriously.

 

[Doc King]

I didn't know if it was a -1 or -2. I don't factor in -1s. -2s however...

Peach seems to be easy to grab and kill for dedede while Wolf is kind of hard to grab since he's always in the air.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Don't forget that King Dedede does mad good against peach (Well at least my Dedede does )

I actually think that Wolf is better at fighting Dedede than Peach is.

Not true. Peach is better vs D3 then Wolf is. That's not even debatable.

There's too many randoms in the bbr for me to even take this seriously.

Lmao.

 

[Hippieslayer]

MARTH IS 5TH FINALLY YESSSSS!!!!!!!

Not to take away your joy or anything... But Marth isn't really 5th best in the game. He's just 5th on the current tier list.

He's probably a lot worse. Like 2-3 spots down worse.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

There's too many randoms in the bbr for me to even take this seriously.

Like who...?

 

[Player-1]

you obviously.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

You guys should get that pwiito guy on board so he can tell you what's what

 

[Jigglymaster]

There were some people who hated/didn't know Jigglypuff very well. Tried arguing against it but failed to change their minds very much.

You do not know how much this makes me angry and dissapointed to hear. But thanks a ton for trying your best to convice them otherwise even if you didn't succeed.

 

[Conviction]

Ganon is a lot better than being in dead last. Did you guys not consider the fact that Fonz came in 1st with Ganon alone? Ganon has a lot of potential and it seems you guys haven't seen the full potential Ganon can do.

Please don't make bad comments like this.

Yo why is Lucario above King Dedede when Dedede can infinite Lucario and Wario and how dedede can d throw to up smash on lucario? :/

I think that King Dedede should be top tier because he's just has so many chain grab combos on characters and the whole d throw to up smash and dash dance pivot grab stuff that have been improving dededes metagame over time.

Other than that good list. Nice to see Wolf being top mid tier and Diddy above Snake .

Also another concern i have with this list is mk being in a tier of his own called God Tier when characters like Diddy Kong keep him from being a God character.

We've went over this last tier list thread, just because it's a new list and thread means you get to forget the whole thing and act stupid.

and ganon winning a tourney should be ENOUGH to move him past zelda

No.

Ha ha ha ha ha! AAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! i HONESTLY DON'T KNOW WHAT TO SAY TO THIS!

oh dear Lord....

HARLEM SHAKE

People don't fall for the chaingrabs anymore, the matchups he once had that were considered amazing are no longer as favorable for him, he's juggled and rushed down by plenty of the cast...

Lucario mains have been putting in work for him and showing off very viable potential for him, where Dedede mains have fallen off the radar.

This.

inb4 X wins Genesis2

Nah TKD got this son (I wouldn't be surprised though)

Well Dedede does very good against Lucario, pretty bad against zero suit, and even against game and watch and toon link which overall makes his matchups against high tiers even.

I know other characters that do too. So those characters =DDD?

This games still ***.

K, go back under your bridge now, and drown in the water LOL

Just to let you know that I've been putting work to Dedede and found out that he can infinite Lucario on upward slopes. Which makes Dedede have good counter pick stages against Lucario and ppl found out about the whole down throw to up smash thing.

Vids please.

She hasn't?

Unless you count my placements with top four usually in my region, placements at WHOBO, or Kyon/Kyle's solid placements here and there.

Wolf hasn't really done much either when compared to Peach, they are both fairly around the same place.

I'm not going strictly off of tournament results. Players need to understand what a tier list truly is.

is a stronger character than .

I think it's pretty close between Peach and Wolf. I think Peach is better though. Idk, Hero Bias.

Or... i don't know.. maybe - Trela's?

People whine and complain about Lucario's placement but they don't look at results. Yet they cry all day about something Sonic did almost a year ago.

Tbh I haven't kept with Cario.

That's not what Kain says. He's been doing what no other Peach mainer (except Excel Zero, but he's in PR so no one even looks at him when discussing Peach) has done, consistently be #1 with his character in tourneys. I've never heard bad things about Kain, and even though he never wins any nationals (neither does Peach, but blahblahblah), his total tourney results are better than any Peach mainer's total tourney results.

... Which could make him an outlier, too. If I had access to all of Wolf's tourney results, but I can't find them in his character board... Leaders need to step it up and organize tourney results somehow, man. :\

I know, no one pays attention to PR anymore. Excel is 2nd PR'd there right?

Something tells me that eventually Ganon will rise up in Brawl and ppl haven't found his potential yet. Ganon seems to do pretty good if your mindgames are good. I actually beat a Pit once with Ganon. Although with Ganon I sometimes do horrible.

I think that eventually you'll stop making bad comments like this and people with good mindgames will move their character up causing nothing to happen what-so-ever in the tier list.

I like this very very much. Fox and Wolf <3<3

.......No furry love please. GTFO

You wanna know what is funny about this? Back then when me, execl, Edreese and one more dude, were doing damage in tourny, even big ones, none ever brought this up with Peach. and she just stood in the same spot. They could just no way in hell see her as a good character to rise or good quality. Stuck in that 2008 nonsense.

But when it happens to a charater that does not have as much options as Peach, gets the **** by high tiers and a large % or the roster can do gay **** to him, it does not matter? Also going on about one player that plays in his region and does well. Send his *** else where and lets see what happens. Also with my example above. Peach had three people going in. Look at what happen. Wolf has one and this dude is shooting rockets.

Hahahahahahaha! oh smash community. How you make me laugh. I enjoy reading these post.

*keeps reading while sipping sprite*

Carry on now.

HARLEM SHA- But nah forreal I think Peach has potential, how many of you people in here have played a decent peach?

From what i've seen i could see both float and turnip metagame develop much MUCH more. There's so much potential with them imo. I'd love to see where peach goes.

This.

Kirby is a much more solid character than Fox and DK.

o LOL.

alright, im not even going to respond because I will start drama

Too late son, go in.

/implying Peach mains have no top level wins

This went from Fox vs. Wolf to Peach vs. Wolf. This is entertaining. Inb4FoxvsPeachvsWolf

We will never fully understand the cosmos. What we can do, is fully understand ourselves, and represent it; by showing what we can do with all of the odds weighing against us.

Wut

 

[Zigsta]

Krys, Bowser's moves aren't slow as balls.

 

[_Kain_]

Iblis your the only one that seems to want some drama with Fox involved in it.

Fox is bad, just be grateful for TKD. Kthxbye

Wolf da bess