Official BBR Tier List v6

[Hippieslayer]

Well Dedede does very good against Lucario, pretty bad against zero suit, and even against game and watch and toon link which overall makes his matchups against high tiers even.

DDD's disadvantage against ZSS is small. With good matchup experience she will have trouble landing hits on him, and although she can juggle the ****er a bit DDD still has good aerial defense due to his very quick FF combines with several strong aerials of his own and the fact that he suffers little to no landing lag i played correctly. DDD himself can hurt zero pretty bad if she gets to agressive when approaching, grabs hurt even though DDD cant chaingrab he can still d-throw>dtilt, or d-throw>chase, the former dealing a lot of dmg and putting zero close the ledge in most cases and the latter potentialy ko'ing or leading to more dmg. Indeed once again DDD's r/r isn't all too shabby even in this matchup.

But really, meaningless theorycrafting from a scrub put aside, all the games of good ddd's vs good zss's that I've seen have indicated at most a 45-55 disadvantage for DDD or a -1. I remember seeing Nick doing perfect f-throw chaingrabs and dashlocks against Coney and playing good in general but still barely winning at the end of the set.

 

[Kewkky]

She hasn't?

Unless you count my placements with top four usually in my region, placements at WHOBO, or Kyon/Kyle's solid placements here and there.

Wolf hasn't really done much either when compared to Peach, they are both fairly around the same place.

I'm not going strictly off of tournament results. Players need to understand what a tier list truly is.

is a stronger character than .

That's not what Kain says. He's been doing what no other Peach mainer (except Excel Zero, but he's in PR so no one even looks at him when discussing Peach) has done, consistently be #1 with his character in tourneys. I've never heard bad things about Kain, and even though he never wins any nationals (neither does Peach, but blahblahblah), his total tourney results are better than any Peach mainer's total tourney results.

... Which could make him an outlier, too. If I had access to all of Wolf's tourney results, but I can't find them in his character board... Leaders need to step it up and organize tourney results somehow, man. :\

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'm practicing Wario's chaingrab right now.

 

[Claire Diviner]

R.O.B. is slowly dying. What a shame, but what can one do (except try to find ways to make him better)? Also, Snake finally being knocked out of 2nd? I have to say, though I wasn't expecting it, it also comes as no surprise either. Peach rising on the list is nice - glad to know there are qualities to her that makes her good. Aaaaand, Ganondorf... well, he's Ganondorf.

 

[Doc King]

DDD's disadvantage against ZSS is small. With good matchup experience she will have trouble landing hits on him, and although she can juggle the ****er a bit DDD still has good aerial defense due to his very quick FF combines with several strong aerials of his own and the fact that he suffers little to no landing lag i played correctly. DDD himself can hurt zero pretty bad if she gets to agressive when approaching, grabs hurt even though DDD cant chaingrab he can still d-throw>dtilt, or d-throw>chase, the former dealing a lot of dmg and putting zero close the ledge in most cases and the latter potentialy ko'ing or leading to more dmg. Indeed once again DDD's r/r isn't all too shabby even in this matchup.

But really, meaningless theorycrafting from a scrub put aside, all the games of good ddd's vs good zss's that I've seen have indicated at most a 45-55 disadvantage for DDD or a -1. I remember seeing Nick doing perfect f-throw chaingrabs and dashlocks against Coney and playing good in general but still barely winning at the end of the set.

You have a point there. I never had too much trouble in the matchup either. Dedede just has to play it safe by dodging the samus pieces by jumping in mid air and just b throwing and up tilting her and the f tilt.

 

[stingers]

It has nothing to do with Fonz. When someone says that Ganon deserves a higher spot on the tier list for fallacious reasons, I'm well within my rights to say something. I repeatedly acknowledge Fonz as having done an amazing job, but I'm not going to verbally fellate him and say he did the impossible, because he didn't. He did something amazing, but it was a rare circumstance.

Stop trying to instigate.

lol the only reason ganon deserves a higher spot on the tier list is because he's better than falcon. fonz winning an mk banned tourney has nothing to do with it. chompy aside, that should be obvious =p

 

[Doc King]

R.O.B. is slowly dying. What a shame, but what can one do (except try to find ways to make him better)? Also, Snake finally being knocked out of 2nd? I have to say, though I wasn't expecting it, it also comes as no surprise either. Peach rising on the list is nice - glad to know there are qualities to her that makes her good. Aaaaand, Ganondorf... well, he's Ganondorf.

Something tells me that eventually Ganon will rise up in Brawl and ppl haven't found his potential yet. Ganon seems to do pretty good if your mindgames are good. I actually beat a Pit once with Ganon. Although with Ganon I sometimes do horrible.

 

[Deleted member]

She hasn't?

Unless you count my placements with top four usually in my region, placements at WHOBO, or Kyon/Kyle's solid placements here and there.

Wolf hasn't really done much either when compared to Peach, they are both fairly around the same place.

I'm not going strictly off of tournament results. Players need to understand what a tier list truly is.

is a stronger character than .

Go back and read my post again. You assumed that I said Peach hasn't been getting results, and you also assumed that I am only addressing results...

I'm just not seeing how Peach could possibly be a stronger character.

 

[Vermanubis]

lol the only reason ganon deserves a higher spot on the tier list is because he's better than falcon. fonz winning an mk banned tourney has nothing to do with it. chompy aside, that should be obvious =p

This has nothing to do with the current context. I addressed Chompy because he cited Fonz's win--not Falcon's alleged inferiority.

 

[Doc King]

Go back and read my post again. You assumed that I said Peach hasn't been getting results, and you also assumed that I am only addressing results...

I'm just not seeing how Peach could possibly be a stronger character.

Well Wolf seems to do good against MK with his shine and blaster being good tornado punishers and Wolfs attacks and air speed are really fast, making him more unpredictable than Peach. So Wolf beats Peach!

 

[Deleted member]

Kewkky, go check out John #'s thread and ask for a breakdown on Wolf if you want the tourney data.

 

[Claire Diviner]

lol the only reason ganon deserves a higher spot on the tier list is because he's better than falcon. fonz winning an mk banned tourney has nothing to do with it. chompy aside, that should be obvious =p

I dunno, wasn't the MU between Dorf and Flacon, like, 50:50 at best? I think the reason Falcon ranks higher is due to his ability to string moves better than Ganondorf, and his speed. Other than those, I can maybe see his hitboxes (though unfavorable) being decent enough to get an overall MU advantage over Ganondorf... though that's not saying a whole lot either.

 

[z00ted]

That's not what Kain says. He's been doing what no other Peach mainer (except Excel Zero, but he's in PR so no one even looks at him when discussing Peach) has done, consistently be #1 with his character in tourneys. I've never heard bad things about Kain, and even though he never wins any nationals (neither does Peach, but blahblahblah), his total tourney results are better than any Peach mainer's total tourney results.

... Which could make him an outlier, too. If I had access to all of Wolf's tourney results, but I can't find them in his character board... Leaders need to step it up and organize tourney results somehow, man. :\

I understand this.

Competition in Texas is much harder for me, especially as a Peach main.
Look at who is below Kain in Illinois.
Look at who is above me in the Houston PR.

I could easily meet Kain in GF at almost any tournament in Illinois.
Take into consideration location when bringing forward evidence like this.
The same goes for Excel Zero. He's practically one of the only top players in PR.

 

[P!nk .]

I like this very very much. Fox and Wolf <3<3

 

[Dark.Pch]

That's not what Kain says. He's been doing what no other Peach mainer (except Excel Zero, but he's in PR so no one even looks at him when discussing Peach) has done, consistently be #1 with his character in tourneys. I've never heard bad things about Kain, and even though he never wins any nationals (neither does Peach, but blahblahblah), his total tourney results are better than any Peach mainer's total tourney results.

... Which could make him an outlier, too. If I had access to all of Wolf's tourney results, but I can't find them in his character board... Leaders need to step it up and organize tourney results somehow, man. :\

You wanna know what is funny about this? Back then when me, execl, Edreese and one more dude, were doing damage in tourny, even big ones, none ever brought this up with Peach. and she just stood in the same spot. They could just no way in hell see her as a good character to rise or good quality. Stuck in that 2008 nonsense.

But when it happens to a charater that does not have as much options as Peach, gets the **** by high tiers and a large % or the roster can do gay **** to him, it does not matter? Also going on about one player that plays in his region and does well. Send his *** else where and lets see what happens. Also with my example above. Peach had three people going in. Look at what happen. Wolf has one and this dude is shooting rockets.

Hahahahahahaha! oh smash community. How you make me laugh. I enjoy reading these post.

*keeps reading while sipping sprite*

Carry on now.

 

[Kuro~]

From what i've seen i could see both float and turnip metagame develop much MUCH more. There's so much potential with them imo. I'd love to see where peach goes.

 

[Hippieslayer]

lol the only reason ganon deserves a higher spot on the tier list is because he's better than falcon. fonz winning an mk banned tourney has nothing to do with it. chompy aside, that should be obvious =p

Yeah right. Ganondorf isn't better than Falcon, he's just more likely to get some some wins due to the fact that he deals insane dmg and can thus if he gets lucky, destroy his opponents quick as hell. Ganondorf is also a decently popular character because he is so awesome.

With this taken into consideration it's not that weird that Ganon finally won a tournament, that being said, his general placements being taken into consideration aswell, still puts him dead last well behind Falcon.

Indeed the only real argument against this would be one saying that Fonz didn't simply win by combination of skill and luck but actually played Ganondorf in a fundamentally new way, advancing his metagame and putting further up the list. I doubt that was the case however.

 

[Player-1]

Problems I have with the list:

-Snake above Diddy
-Peach, Kirby, and Wolf should be at the top of C tier
-Fox below DK
-Fox and ROB should be right next to each other, no particular opinion on who should be above who
-Shelda and Luigi above Ike and maybe even Sheik
-Luigi is the best character in the game, needs a new tier for him above MK, or just ban him
-Yoshi above Ness and possibly PT above Ness as well
-Mario above Lucas, could be in mid tier too, but has little to no rep so I can see why he would be low tier
-Jigglypuff below Zelda

 

[Pimp Daddy Supreme]

Wolf is broken

 

[Jigglymaster]

I am very VERY displeased with Jigglypuffs drop in the tier list again.

 

[Dark.Pch]

From what i've seen i could see both float and turnip metagame develop much MUCH more. There's so much potential with them imo. I'd love to see where peach goes.

This is what Jash was telling me when we played. And I was actually messing with all this. Mostly her turnip. I had like so many turnip footstoll set ups after Jash was beasting with the bomb footstool with link. I wish I would have saved thoses matches. Peach turnip game is freaking destruction. I will now start finally abusing that in matches. Don't know why I have not done this before.

 

[Doc King]

Man it sucks, me losing to a tier war against Jung bug for Dedede vs Lucario. Dedede players we need to step it up or else dedede will be mid tier or something (Something thats happening to ROB now).

 

[Deleted member]

Illmatic, go take down Atomsk like Kain did and maybe I'll give Peach's positioning a second glance.

You guys are also assuming Kain is the only Wolf getting results. Choice, Seagull, Holmes, Semifer, and there's probably more, are bringing in the $$$.

 

[stingers]

he's just more likely to get some some wins

o right
wouldnt that make him better?
or are we playing super theorycraft bros where the tier list is based off of inhuman potential

pit for #1 then

 

[Sails]

Problems I have with the list:

-Snake above Diddy

Same. I tell people all the time, most Diddy mains don't believe he deserves second or for extremists; third best. He has flaws, people don't get hit by random bananas 2009 style, he has plenty of even/annoying matchups with lower tiers, and as of late everybody seems to know how to keep him away from his bananas (Or even use them) and punish his landings.

Diddy at second is basically the only issue I take with this tier list iteration. Snake rep has been lacking lately, so I think that's what drove this change the most.

 

[Vermanubis]

Yeah right. Ganondorf isn't better than Falcon, he's just more likely to get some some wins due to the fact that he deals insane dmg and can thus if he gets lucky, destroy his opponents quick as hell. Ganondorf is also a decently popular character because he is so awesome.

With this taken into consideration it's not that weird that Ganon finally won a tournament, that being said, his general placements being taken into consideration aswell, still puts him dead last well behind Falcon.

Indeed the only real argument against this would be one saying that Fonz didn't simply win by combination of skill and luck but actually played Ganondorf in a fundamentally new way, advancing his metagame and putting further up the list. I doubt that was the case however.

Well said. Ganon's power is overestimated, since people often forget that if you know your options well enough, Ganon can get you to a high percent but never finish you 'cause he can't get a solid move in. One of the most common problems I face against smart players i that Ganon can't apply pressure well against people well-versed in the MU. So if they wise up and stick to the sidelines, Ganon'll have a hell of a time getting a single finishing blow in.

I can't recall how many times I spooked someone when they were at high percents, only to spend the next 3 minutes trying to get that one last hit in while they almost take an entire stock from me in the process.

 

[Player-1]

Snake rep is pretty good still I haven't noticed any difference in it.

 

[Doc King]

Same. I tell people all the time, most Diddy mains don't believe he deserves second or for extremists; third best. He has flaws, people don't get hit by random bananas 2009 style, he has plenty of even/annoying matchups with lower tiers, and as of late everybody seems to know how to keep him away from his bananas (Or even use them) and punish his landings.

Diddy at second is basically the only issue I take with this tier list iteration. Snake rep has been lacking lately, so I think that's what drove this change the most.

Well, the main reason for this change was because ppl found out about Snakes flaws and he hasn't been doing as good as in 2008-2010. Also Diddy's metagame has been improving a lot.

 

[BSP]

so real talk

and

didn't budge for some reason

 

[Sails]

Well said. Ganon's power is overestimated, since people often forget that if you know your options well enough, Ganon can get you to a high percent but never finish you 'cause he can't get a solid move in. One of the most common problems I face against smart players i that Ganon can't apply pressure well against people well-versed in the MU. So if they wise up and stick to the sidelines, Ganon'll have a hell of a time getting a single finishing blow in.

I can't recall how many times I spooked someone when they were at high percents, only to spend the next 3 minutes trying to get that one last hit in while they almost take an entire stock from me in the process.

If someone knows the matchup, then in my opinion Ganon should rarely get a hit in unless it's a solid read. It's sad to think people are still getting hit by things like ledge hop uair's...

 

[san.]

Someone still needs to tell me why jiggs dropped. Is it cause of low tourney repp.?

There were some people who hated/didn't know Jigglypuff very well. Tried arguing against it but failed to change their minds very much.

 

[Vermanubis]

o right
wouldnt that make him better?
or are we playing super theorycraft bros where the tier list is based off of inhuman potential

pit for #1 then

Stingers, your sarcasm doesn't compensate for the lack of common sense. Ganon's more likely to win in the event of the opponent's ignorance of the MU, which is a harmful consideration to the integrity of the tier list, since it's based off of people playing at equal skill with knowledge of the MUs. If someone knew the Ganon and Falcon MUs equally well, it stands to reason they would probably have a harder time with Falcon. Falcon is like a mosquito, whereas Ganon is a quarterback (). If a quarterback is chasing at you in a straight line, fully-geared, his momentum will limit his options, so his best hope is for you to stand there hapless, mouth agape, pants soiled, bladder emptied, eagerly awaiting 666 megatons of pure, unadulterated doom. The mosquito, however, is more innocuous, but a hell of a lot harder to keep track of and play keep away from.

 

[Player-1]

Diddy's metagame hasn't changed much...Diddy hasn't been getting that much rep lately, ADHD has been slacking, Gnes hasn't been to as many tournaments as he used to go, Felix is doing much just staying in WA, AZ is losing to Ganons. The only Diddys that have been improving a lot are Lie and BigLou and BigLou hasn't done much OoS yet.

 

[Seagull Joe]

This is an amazing tier list.
Mid Tier
isn't better than and it will probably start to show.

It won't show because Peach sucks. I'd love to see Peach's pull consistent top 5 results though~!

Why are you so stupid?

He's right tough. I think Sonic is much better then Peach. But hell, the two matchups I specialize in are Wolf vs Peach and Wolf vs Sonic so I make it insanely difficult for either of those characters to even get me to last stock at this point in time =/.

Really though Sonic lowballed again. How about we stop giving characters rises relative to their previous position and start thinking about them relative to the current meta

VVV Sonic did deserve to rise I said it earlier, but DK definitely did plenty that Kirby ROB and Pit have never done so I'm not sure why people are confused here. Mid tier is basically perfect except for Sonic and Peach who should basically switch places LOL

Agreed.

Ha ha ha ha ha! AAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! i HONESTLY DON'T KNOW WHAT TO SAY TO THIS!

My only response to this^
is this V

oh dear Lord....

I like how there's 30+ members viewing the thread and the salt still hasn't arrived.

We dun did it!

-Checks members online, See's Dark.Pch Online-

"Bet he's viewing the tierlist" -Illmatic latest post- "Yup..."

Well, most people are satisfied. Olimar should've risen and so should've Pikachu in my opinion. I'm not sure why Marth would be 5th, but wait till version 7 peepz.

Illmatic, how has Peach's results been lately in comparison to Wolf? I don't really see why she should be above him, given Wolf's matchups. I think she's fine where she is.

Hell, at least they're both in the same tier with only one other character. :/

Her moving up at all was always a shock to me (And I helped make this list with other BBR members).

If Peach ever moved above Wolf in future tier list, I'd legit quit brawl lmao...

I'm aware, hence why I said "rare and fortuitous circumstances."

Oh Verm...People don't understand your kind quips because they use language that most people cannot decipher. I understand most of the time though.

She hasn't?

Unless you count my placements with top four usually in my region, placements at WHOBO, or Kyon/Kyle's solid placements here and there.

Wolf hasn't really done much either when compared to Peach, they are both fairly around the same place.

I'm not going strictly off of tournament results. Players need to understand what a tier list truly is.

is a stronger character than .

No. Look at Brainshock this past weekend where Kain and Holms got 5th and 7th then? I also got 3rd at a regional this weekend. Where the **** is Peach at?

Peach's like never place into the money. Wolf's do it mad consistent at regionals and locals.

And Holms also placed at Whobo 3. He even beat Dojo at it. So sure, use a tourney where both characters did "aight" at, but not even top 10.

That's not what Kain says. He's been doing what no other Peach mainer (except Excel Zero, but he's in PR so no one even looks at him when discussing Peach) has done, consistently be #1 with his character in tourneys. I've never heard bad things about Kain, and even though he never wins any nationals (neither does Peach, but blahblahblah), his total tourney results are better than any Peach mainer's total tourney results.

... Which could make him an outlier, too. If I had access to all of Wolf's tourney results, but I can't find them in his character board... Leaders need to step it up and organize tourney results somehow, man. :\

Choice is currently 5th on NorCal PR. Kain is 1st. I'm 4th on Md/Va PR. Holms is 11th in the Kansas PR system that they have.

I could just tell you how Wolf's have been doing. The past 3 tourneys I went to in 3 weeks I got 25th at CoT5, 3rd in an Md/Va local, and 3rd in a PA regional.

Choice got 7th and then stepped it up after I told him Mk matchup tips and got 2nd.

Kain got 7th at Brainshock and has consistently got 1st at like every local he's attended this year except 1 where he got 2nd or 3rd.

Holms results are pretty consistent and he got 5th at Brainshock. I never have talked to him personally, but I imagine his results are top 5 guaranteed almost always.

Wolf has a lot going for him. Peach has always played the same. She can't kill like ever, she's light, and her AD is the worst in the game. She eats a lot of damage when she's offstage.

I question why people lose to Illmatic sometimes because I watch his matches and it looks like he just throws out as many moves as possible with every intention of his opponent walking into the BS, or just jump trapping Texas (Don't know why people still get jump trapped, but Md/Va never does anymore thanks to Neo, MalCUM, and June).

 

[Z'zgashi]

I think its funny how Yoshi only moved up one spot while he's consistently placed better than everyone else in F Tier and even at one of the latest national tournaments, CoT5, he was the only non High Tier to place top 16, and if it werent for just those two High tiers with June's Lucario and Vinnie's G&W, he would have been the only non-Top Tier to place that high.

 

[*JuriHan*]

-Peach, Kirby, and Wolf should be at the top of C tier

NO. This isn't 09. Kirby gimmicks dont work on anyone decent anymore.

-Jigglypuff below Zelda

Agree this is wrong. Jigglypuff is bad, but her being in G tier is ridiculous. She IS better than Falcon, problem is she has zero rep, but JigglyMaster has done some good work with her.

 

[san.]

@Verm

Despite Ganon's flaws, you don't think that bottom tier last place will ever change, at least being above the current second worst?
Ganon's survivability offsets him getting gimped offstage as long as he has good DI. Ganon even has some ledgedrop options.

Ganon also has killpower, something hardly anyone in lowtier has, + a somewhat usable aerial grab when the time calls. I think there's still hope, at least.

 

[Sails]

Snake rep is pretty good still I haven't noticed any difference in it.

I disagree. I know I'm referring to CoT5 again, but there was what, one Snake in pro bracket?

Yep. One (Hello Bizkit), with him being used as a side by Pelca for IC's and Ally for who knows what (I sure didn't see him playing Snake at all).

 

[Player-1]

Kirby is a much more solid character than Fox and DK.

 

[wWw Dazwa]

But really, meaningless theorycrafting from a scrub put aside, all the games of good ddd's vs good zss's that I've seen have indicated at most a 45-55 disadvantage for DDD or a -1. I remember seeing Nick doing perfect f-throw chaingrabs and dashlocks against Coney and playing good in general but still barely winning at the end of the set.

Coney is also infamous for winning Dedede's problem matchups but losing the ones he should be winning.

Spoiler

Coney is also 100x better than every single brawl player in the world.

Not to say I disagree with you, I personally don't enjoy the matchup on ZSS's side of it, but I still think there's a solid lean towards ZSS's favor in it.