Official BBR Tier List v6

[Ripple]

yes and he can ftilt like 15 other characters.............................. its not olimar special.

according to DLA, f-tilt is only guaranteed on olimar.

 

[Judo777]

according to DLA, f-tilt is only guaranteed on olimar.

thats not true. Jigg is susceptible to every followup except dsmash.

ganon's follow ups after flame choke are as follows.

Dtilt, Ftilt, jab, instand DA, Dsmash, Quake down B

of these Dtilt works on the most chars. Jab works solo on a few. Ftilt works on some chars often along with Dtilt (ike i know gets ftilted).

Olimars only unique one is dsmash as hes the only 1 that gest dsmashed. A few chars get them all except dsmash (jiggs is one). And Falco, Ganon and Lucario can't be folowed up at all.

 

[Eddie G]

not as good as people seem to think.

Since when?

 

[Kantrip]

Since when?

Since http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-e_HkZZHxd8

And when they realized floating and having an aerial playstyle didn't mean she was good against Diddy.

 

[Judo777]

Since http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-e_HkZZHxd8

And when they realized floating and having an aerial playstyle didn't mean she was good against Diddy.

Sooooo since Ally and Infern lost to Gnes..... Snake doesn't do well either?

Actually thats a bad example because those Snakes are actually probably close to (or in Allys case possibly greater) skill level...............

 

[Luigi player]

Diddy always beat Peach, ppl just needed some time to realize it. (most are still in denial :o)

 

[Kantrip]

Judo, note the emote after my first line.

The second line does not contain this emote.

Peach just doesn't have anything on Diddy. I don't know why people thought she did well to begin with.

 

[Chuee]

Peach was thought to beat Diddy back when people thought if you could avoid Diddy's bananas you beat him.

 

[OverLade]

Most people just don't know how to fight diddy properly. How many players actually put in the time and learn banana game? How many players picked up Diddy and know the ins and outs of the character? Why do you think me, Anti, and Dojo are all amazing against Diddy, but for some reason, Tyrant isn't? That's just the MK matchup. Diddy is the 2nd best character but Snake definitely beats him solidly, and the rest of high tier has close enough matchups with him. I think Marth goes even with Diddy (I've been saying this for ages, just none of the top marths are good at the matchup), Wario loses slightly but can compete, ICs, and Olimar can compete. I think Diddy beats falco slightly, but characters like Peach, Mario, Sheik all have winnable matchups against Diddy (these matchups are a hundred times more winnable than their matchups with MK). Even characters like ROB have reasonable matchups with him.

Remember Gnes losing to San? Enough player skill and matchup knowledge can overcome a bad matchup, because you actually have options regardless of how badly they're skewed against you. The same is not true of MK.

I honestly worry that Diddy does not have counters.

Snake counters him for sure, and he's already a popular character. He also has quite a few even or close enough to even matchups (Far closer to even than any of MKs close matchups).

1.) Only FD is one his "worse" stages among the starters
2.) I think LGL is a mediocre compromise-solution and could be improved/replaced by something better
3.) The current timeout rule generally favors character, that rely on dealing %, that's why you see MK, Sonic or even Diddy time people out but not Snake or Olimar despite their generally strong camping and stalling abilities. Out of the key-factors for killing/survival only damage dealing is taken into account by the rule while knockback power and knockback resistance are completely ignored.

Interesting, I've never thought about it that way.

 

[BSP]

Have any peach's taken games/sets off of any top Diddy?

Luigi is even at best vs. Diddy. Diddy sets up two bananas and camps, and Luigi's got an uphill battle for getting in there.

Mario...idk. Where has Boss been? I can see the Mario hope tool-wise, but I'd rather see it actually happen.

 

[Luigi player]

Have any peach's taken games/sets off of any top Diddy?

Luigi is even at best vs. Diddy. Diddy sets up two bananas and camps, and Luigi's got an uphill battle for getting in there.

Mario...idk. Where has Boss been? I can see the Mario hope tool-wise, but I'd rather see it actually happen.

Yeah, some years ago...

 

[Seagull Joe]

I think Mario's only non-losing matchup in high tier is (Which is even). It's funny how out-prioritizes pikmin with his moves like lmao.

 

[Tesh]

Ganons options on olimar are like the same as most characters.........

Ganondorf gets Ftilt (will kill olimar from 60 and up easily), Dtilt(pretty much combos into a 2nd dtilt or another choke if landed at 0-12%), quake(lol), dash attack(kills at 80-90 if you wind up on a stage where ftilt won't kill him, like delfino or ps1) and Dsmash(does 24 damage by itself if olimar doesn't DI out)

Now this is just guaranteed stuff. A seasoned ganon won't have much trouble chainchoking olimars weak rolls for more damage.

Now tell me how this differs from Diddy's options when he controls his own bananas.

Diddy has dribbling, a better glide toss, monkey flip mixups, peanuts and all of them are better than Ganons options while holding a banana.

The thing about Diddy is that he can always make more bananas if he loses the one he has. Think about how hard it will be for Ganon to get control of a banana without getting juggled, combod and then gimped for it. Its going to be pretty rare against a patient Diddy.


As for Diddy vs Peach, I doubt Peach goes even with Diddy, she is in the same boat with kill power, but she doesn't even have the set ups he has going. Not to mention his superior mobility.

 

[Kantrip]

Alright, but I didn't say Ganon is even with Diddy. I'm talking about people who can beat out peanuts here, like Mario and Luigi with their fireballs or Falco with his lasers. If these characters get Diddy's bananas (toss one in the air and hold the other one), they can camp him hard and he has trouble approaching. Or they can just hold the one banana and camp him. Their camping beats his camping and it's hard to approach them when they have a nanner in hand.

 

[Judo777]

Ganondorf gets Ftilt (will kill olimar from 60 and up easily), Dtilt(pretty much combos into a 2nd dtilt or another choke if landed at 0-12%), quake(lol), dash attack(kills at 80-90 if you wind up on a stage where ftilt won't kill him, like delfino or ps1) and Dsmash(does 24 damage by itself if olimar doesn't DI out)

Now this is just guaranteed stuff. A seasoned ganon won't have much trouble chainchoking olimars weak rolls for more damage.


Diddy has dribbling, a better glide toss, monkey flip mixups, peanuts and all of them are better than Ganons options while holding a banana.

The thing about Diddy is that he can always make more bananas if he loses the one he has. Think about how hard it will be for Ganon to get control of a banana without getting juggled, combod and then gimped for it. Its going to be pretty rare against a patient Diddy.


As for Diddy vs Peach, I doubt Peach goes even with Diddy, she is in the same boat with kill power, but she doesn't even have the set ups he has going. Not to mention his superior mobility.

And on jigglypuff he gets........ all the same stuff except dsmash, which is nothing comparatively..................

the difference being jiggs dies way earlier.

@feint I don't know why I didn't see that my bad.

 

[Eddie G]

Since http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-e_HkZZHxd8

And when they realized floating and having an aerial playstyle didn't mean she was good against Diddy.

Is that it? You basically cited a Peach who isn't particularly good at the Diddy matchup. I played a bunch of friendlies with Gnes myself and got him down to last stock (last hit in some games) with a win or two sprinkled in there, with the worst result being a two stock in one of the earlier games. Peach does do well against Diddy, but not with the playstyle/approach commonly associated with her by people who don't main her. Just trust the main on this, alright?

 

[DMG]

Wario actually goes even or slightly better vs Diddy. The stage list including RC and Brinstar is also a big boon for him, definitely shifting the MU in his favor if he wins game 1, while not being at a huge disadvantage CP wise if he loses game 1.

 

[Ussi]

Diddy does fine on RC

Gnes and ADHD did alot of work on RC at genesis


RC is becoming a standard to know how to play on.

 

[Chuee]

Diddy does fine on RC

Gnes and ADHD did alot of work on RC at genesis


RC is becoming a standard to know how to play on.

RC still sucks tho

 

[Kantrip]

Alright KB, I'm not going to argue about it when I don't have all that much experience with it myself. As I told Judo earlier, the video has a emote next to it. The matchup is Diddy's favor because Peach just really doesn't have anything that Diddy can't deal with easily. Being able to float over bananas isn't enough to tip the matchup in your favour against Diddy in today's metagame. He's more as a character than that, otherwise he wouldn't be second best right now.

 

[OverLade]

Diddy does fine on RC

Gnes and ADHD did alot of work on RC at genesis


RC is becoming a standard to know how to play on.

If MK runs away on Rainbowcruise he's practically unbeatable. Diddy does fine on cruise vs any other character though.

 

[Kuro~]

Well from all the matches i've seen of Kyon vs GDX it seems to range from 50-50 to 45-55. I honestly believe it's 50-50. But...i could see the argument on the other side of it as well.

 

[Tesh]

Jiggs doesn't die as early as Olimar does to Ftilt. When you factor in his recovery, he basically just gets dead zoned past a certain percent. Not that it really matters. I'm just pointing out that just because you can do some nasty combos on people, doesn't mean you do well in the matchup.

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

Ban mk...done

The top characters will now have hard MUs where they can't shark or scrooge or LG to victory. Snake will have to worry about D3, Oli, Falco, Diddy, Rob (even or slight favored MUs). Diddy will have to worry about Snakes Falcos, Peaches, Wario, etc. Thus giving diversity to the characters in top ten IMO & everyone will have a counter or even MU....unlike MK...

 

[Steam]

an overwhelming majority of players seem to want to ban MK now... we just need to get the BBR/ruleset commitee to listen :I

 

[Tesh]

an overwhelming majority of players seem to want to ban MK now... we just need to get the BBR/ruleset commitee to listen :I

Wrong, an overwhelming majority of player POSTING NONSTOP IN THIS FORUM seem to want to ban MK. The rest of them don't need to post, because they already have what they want: MK legal.

 

[Arcansi]

Wrong, an overwhelming majority of player POSTING NONSTOP IN THIS FORUM seem to want to ban MK. The rest of them don't need to post, because they already have what they want: MK legal.

The Petition seems to be an attempt to nullify this (and to gain actual numbers.) although it is not official in any way.

Thing is, we can't know anything until something official goes up. It could be that an overwhelming majority do want him banned, and it could be what your saying.

Off-Topic: Am I missing something, or am i expected to highlight your text in order to read it?

In other words, why is your text colour the same as the bg?

 

[Tesh]

Because I'm cool.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Interesting, I've never thought about it that way.

Well to be fair [and I'm sure DMG addressed that point before even though I can't read it] at the moment a better solution doesn't exist - assuming you refer to my notes about the time-out rule. However, I think if we can finally reach a consensus that the current time-out clause is sub-optimal it'd be easier to come up with and maybe even establish something different. Even then I think merely acknowkledging this fact makes us realize that a LGL per se doesn't solve the problems.

I also think the LGL is generally not implemented logically. Universal LGL is stupid - it should be used against characters that can only use planking to stall [MK, DK, Marth, GW] with 30 LGs and against characters that can attempt to stall but also use planking as a tool beyond that [Samus, Yoshi, Pikachu, Pit, ...] with 60 LGs. I don't see why every other character should have a LGL to begin with. And technically "scrooging" is nothing but circle-camping without a ground below needed - I think looking at the issue from that angle could possibly make it easier to come up with an adequate solution.

 

[John12346]

Tesh, I have an interesting theory that may counteract your statement.

First off, people do not come onto the Competitive Brawl Boards for the purpose of talking about Meta-Knight's legality in specific. They come here in order to talk about the wide range of topics regarded by Competitive Brawl. MK's legality is naturally one of the topics found in Competitive Brawl, so we can assume that people who come to talk about Competitive Brawl will talk about MK's legality.

Now, given that the people who come to the Competitive Brawl Boards come independent of their alignment in the legality of MK, we can assume that a proportion of people who are pro-ban and anti-ban here in the Competitive Brawl Boards will end up being very similar to the true proportion of people's alignments, when the entire Smash Community is considered.

Putting the statements together, we can conclude that we have a proportion of people here on the Competitive Brawl Boards with alignments of pro-ban and anti-ban to be very close to the true proportion of people who are pro-ban and anti-ban. In essence, what this can prove is that we currently good indicator on the %ages of people in the whole community who are pro-ban and anti-ban.

It can be further proven when you consider the results of the polls in my sig. There was a reason for me advertising this in ONLY the Competitive Brawl Boards, and this is it. 118 pro-ban against 25 anti-ban. The numbers are subject to change, because the polling isn't over yet, and we also have to check the e-mails of everyone who voted in order to determine if there are any alt accounts, but you get the idea.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Anti-bans don't sign your petition because they don't care. Would you take part in an election with the title "Vote to maintain the current status-quo"?

 

[John12346]

Uh, YES, LOL

"Should the copyright infringement laws be enacted?"
Yes
No - Maintain the current status quo

Nobody comes to vote No under your theory.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Political elections actually impact your life ... laziness isn't an excuse there
And I actually voted "no" in your poll I think and I still don't give a damn about it ... because it's not official, it doesn't affect me and isn't representative for anything *shrug*

 

[John12346]

I would think that 80+% community support from those who frequent the Competitive Brawl Boards IS representative of something...

Also, we have 25 votes against our pro-ban rally. Care to explain where they came from?

 

[Spelt]

Just the fact that "We don't even need to vote for us to win" is the only argument anti-ban has anymore is hilarious.

 

[Tesh]

doesnt make it less true

 

[smashkng]

according to DLA, f-tilt is only guaranteed on olimar.

Ftilt is guaranteed on characters like ROB, MK, Ivysaur, Charizard, Ike, Diddy, Wario (if he doesn't DI the Flame Choke), Pikachu and some more. Pretty much everyone who can also be jabbed and you have at least 10 frame advantage out of it can be unescapeably Ftilted .There is a thread in the Ganon boards about this
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190763

@ Diddy The Ike vs Diddy matchup is also arguably even. Diddy does have easier time dealing damage however Ike lives really long there and once he gets inside he can do nasty stuff on Diddy and kill Diddy much earlier than viceversa. Ike also can use the Bananas very well (and has an extremely long DACIT) and Ike's huge aerial hitboxes (especially Nair) can give Diddy a lot of trouble. Ike just has to ban FD just like any other character against Diddy.

 

[John12346]

But Tesh, what about my theorems that disprove, or at least cast doubt on, that one argument the anti-ban has?

 

[Arcansi]

doesnt make it less true

How i see this is comparable to hiding behind a stick.

Your like, 'I'm hiding!'

Someone is like, well yeah but that stick provides literally under 1% cover from one specific line of sight onto you. Also, your standing in a large crater.

'Yeah, but I'm HIDING!'

EDIT: I realize this doesn't make it any less true either.

However the only thing that does is a vote, and I don't believe even attempting that at this point is possible. (Should be, but isn't)

 

[Yuna]

Is there a reason why Peach's entry utilizes the Rosalina portrait instead of the Peach portrait?