Official BBR Tier List v6

[Tesh]

When you watch M2K vs Ally and compare it to M2K or Ally vs any other top character, I don't see how anyone else actually goes even with MK. No one else has solid, reliable options for recovering, killing, punishing or defending against MK. MK just completely controls the pace of his matches.

 

[hichez50]

Are we banning Diddy yet? Fkn monkey plays so gay, just standing there and shooting peanuts. I'd rather watch MK dittos any day.

Diddy players are fun to watch especially when they are are in comeback senario's they get to play so aggressive.

Why not just ban MK the longer we wait the more of a hassle it will be to ban him if the community really wants him banned.

 

[Gindler]

MK banned + unity ruleset still existing will be the dumbest thing ever...damn infinites...

 

[Juushichi]

Shugo also lost to Fino as well, who is doing **** tons of work in the MW.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You lost credibility with that second sentence.

MK dittos are a *lot* more fun to watch than anything with Diddy. There are numerous examples of MK dittos played at a high level and they're all good watches - great spacing at high pace with a good amount of mix-ups. That's great gameplay with a character that's fun to watch.

Olimar has some nice MUs, Falco seems to be his worst based on what people have told me. Loses to Luigi and Peach are odd throw-ins but his pros like his MU vs Snake and such help him a bit.

Olimar doesn't beat Snake but he doesn't lose to Luigi or Peach either - these match-ups are all even. Having gimmicks that work in a particular match-up =/= having the advantage.

 

[DMG]

Lemme tell you somethin:

M2K vs ADHD wasn't "icky" to watch because of ADHD, for DAMN sure. The fun part to watch of that set was Diddy going in. The non fun part was MK gliding under Smashville or MK getting gimp xyz because at low % offstage you have terrible options for getting back on even after eating the nairs and dairs to live.

 

[John12346]

Yeah, generally speaking, "MK dittos" or "not-MK vs. not-MK matches" are really fun to watch

"MK vs not-MK," though, is something a majority generally disapproves on, based on how much gayness MK gets in all of his matchups that aren't against himself...

 

[Reizilla]

Watching ADHD get gimped was probably the highlight of the tournament. The second best part of the set was watching people complain about scrooging only for him to get beat even worse when M2K couldn't do that any more.

 

[OverLade]

Lemme tell you somethin:

M2K vs ADHD wasn't "icky" to watch because of ADHD, for DAMN sure. The fun part to watch of that set was Diddy going in. The non fun part was MK gliding under Smashville or MK getting gimp xyz because at low % offstage you have terrible options for getting back on even after eating the nairs and dairs to live.

ADHD and Gnes were definitely the highlights of the live stream.

And tell me how 3 of the USA's 4 best Snakes lost to Tearbear via timeout... I've played Hrnut, Razer and MVD several times each in tourney and if beating them is really as simple as running away the entire match then MK needs to be banned or the LGL needs to be limited to 15. That **** is literally incomprehensible.

 

[Eddie G]

MK dittos are a *lot* more fun to watch than anything with Diddy. There are numerous examples of MK dittos played at a high level and they're all good watches - great spacing at high pace with a good amount of mix-ups. That's great gameplay with a character that's fun to watch.

Completely and utterly subjective. To each his own, really.

ADHD and Gnes were definitely the highlights of the live stream.

And tell me how 3 of the USA's 4 best Snakes lost to Tearbear via timeout... I've played Hrnut, Razer and MVD several times each in tourney and if beating them is really as simple as running away the entire match then MK needs to be banned or the LGL needs to be limited to 15. That **** is literally incomprehensible.

All of this. Let's grow some balls and actually do something about that menace, Brawl community.

 

[Steam]

Olimar doesn't lose to Wolf fyi

And Ike isn't important but Ussi mentioned it so I addressed that as well. It's just my opinion obviously and I think Olimar's MU spread against the top 3 alone [there should be a tier gap between Snake/Diddy and Falco imo] makes Olimar a bigger tourney threat than Marth could be now or become in the future.

1. MK
2.Diddy / Snake
[gap]
4. Falco
5. Olimar
6. IC
[gap]
7. Marth

That's how I think it should be. ICs can probably rise the highest out of those but all non-japanese ICs are disgustingly terrible at this game and 9B/Kakera both don't use IC anymore.

I think american ICs would do muuuuch better if our stagelist was as conservative as japan's.... jussayin.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

That too. But them becoming actually good at this game is still the basic requirement for success.

And lol @ people still thinking that the LGL solves more problems than it creates. It's not the amount of ledgegrabs that make a difference - never did, never will. It's the timeout rule that blatantly favors MK and hands him free wins. Fix the rules before you fix characters.

 

[Steam]

the timeout rule does not blatantly favor MK. it's completely impartial to all characters... we already have plenty of rules that specifically weaken MK... like the neutral stagelist being many of his worst stages and his lower LGL.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

the timeout rule does not blatantly favor MK. it's completely impartial to all characters... we already have plenty of rules that specifically weaken MK... like the neutral stagelist being many of his worst stages and his lower LGL.

1.) Only FD is one his "worse" stages among the starters
2.) I think LGL is a mediocre compromise-solution and could be improved/replaced by something better
3.) The current timeout rule generally favors character, that rely on dealing %, that's why you see MK, Sonic or even Diddy time people out but not Snake or Olimar despite their generally strong camping and stalling abilities. Out of the key-factors for killing/survival only damage dealing is taken into account by the rule while knockback power and knockback resistance are completely ignored.

 

[Steam]

1) when you look at the legal stages as a whole, PS1, SV, and YI are quite bad for him. conveniently his worst matchups tend to do best on neutrals like falco and diddy. if they did a full list stage strike to get the most neutral stage possible for the MU... those matchups would be much more in MK's favor...
2) anything you have in mind?
3) snake and olimar don't time people out because they have the killpower to just kill their opponent at 110 off of a reactionary punish.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

1) when you look at the legal stages as a whole, PS1, SV, and YI are quite bad for him. conveniently his worst matchups tend to do best on neutrals like falco and diddy. if they did a full list stage strike to get the most neutral stage possible for the MU... those matchups would be much more in MK's favor...

I strongly disagree. Maybe they would be a bit more in his favor but definitely not by much. If we assume the stages of the Unity Ruleset to be used then Diddy/Falco can start off by striking RC/Brinstar and MK strikes FD/SV. Diddy can strike Delphino, Frigate and Lylat Cruise and MK woud likely ban PS1 and whatever 2 stages the MK player doesn't like. In the end there's a choice for Diddy between Battlefield, PS2, Yoshis Island, Halberd an Castle Siege and none of them are bad against MK [maybe PS2 if MK has some gimmicks vs Diddy there]. Falco can likely do the same although he'd probably prefer to get rid of YI first.

Generally I'd say the existance of FD, SV, PS1, YI, PS2 and CS gives a lot of room for many characters to find a reasonable stage to start with against MK.

2) anything you have in mind?

Nothing concrete yet.

3) snake and olimar don't time people out because they have the killpower to just kill their opponent at 110 off of a reactionary punish.

Cool story, bro? That has nothing to do with the timeout rule taking only one key factor into account =/

 

[DMG]

What is a better alternative to the % rule? Knockback dealt/received is highly subjective: I could gimp someone 2 times while I die high % "regularly" and now I lose even if I'm clearly ahead on the last stock. There's no way to objectively gauge whether the person who has dealt more knockback is winning or not if you're just going off knockback.

Damage dealt is in the same boat as knockback. Doing more damage than the other guy =/= you are in the lead.

Handicap chart based on weight/resistance/etc? Why? So we can argue whether MK with a 50% lead over Snake is "truly" in the lead or not, despite how massively subjective that gets? What if MK is at 0 and Snake is at 49%? MK isn't at kill %, Snake could get gimped. But no, because his weight was over x margin area, he gets the win. Or MK at 150%, Snake at 199%. Both characters are in the kill zone, but due to some subjective view that Snake kills easier than MK, or that he deserves a % margin for timeouts against MK, he gets the win. Stuff like that isn't gonna fly lol.

As stupid as you think the % timeout rule is, every time we've had this discussion you've not been able to come up with a solid, viable alternative.

THE BEST alternative I have heard to the % rule is to completely scrap end of the game rules like that, and force people to play a same stock/1 stock shorter timer rematch same stage to decide the winner. But that basically shifts the burden or focus from declaring a winner after time runs out, to effectively extending the timer for as long as needed (rematch over and over if needed) until someone wins. While also completely resetting obvious "winning" scenarios like Snake at low % MK high % last stock and now WHOOPS MK let's go back to 0% and start over.

That is the best alternative to the % timeout rule. Anything else has been proven to be more subjective/less solid/creates more trouble than the % rule does in the first place. I would stop hating on it and saying THAT is the reason MK is broken lol. The only thing you can do at this point is either abolish the intent to declare a winner immediately when time runs out if possible, or purposefully penalize players for going to time. Nothing else will stop MK from getting the win by timeout except rules that are even worse than the current one, and I'd rather not add in bad rules when you could nerf the character in other ways without anything garbage like knockback dealt being the deciding factor on who wins, or anything similar to what you've suggested lol.

 

[Steam]

how else could you decide it? making it stock only would just encourage someone with a % deficit to try to run the timer so they can get it to even for free. at least it makes sense for the one winning to be very conservative :/

 

[DMG]

I mean, if you can't finish you're opponent's last stock, you should rematch regardless of damage dealt, resistance/weight, knockback, % on that stock, how many times you shuttle looped, etc.

It just feels like we should be able to figure out a way to declare the winner of a match after the timer runs out, and if we cannot figure out a solid way of doing that, then stop that practice of "Ok X guy wins because of Z factor/measure/etc" and just have people play again in rematches til someone wins before time runs out.

 

[san.]

The best is % and % is flawed.

Rematch is inherently worse than increasing the timer.

 

[Judo777]

While I think Falco is bad for Oli I don;t think he is Olis worst. Falco doesn't do near well enough offstage. While Falco is arguably the best at combatting Olimar on stage (where Olimar is strong) I don't think he is very capable of killing Olimar early where Olimar is weak (offstage).

 

[DMG]

The problem is that even after a timer increase (unless we're talking about something massive like more than 12 min), if a match goes to time you need something in place to dictate what to do.

Extending the 8 min timer to 10-12 minutes to deal with a 8 min match is fine, until that gameplay gets stretched to cover the increase. At which point now you gotta do something anyways. Can't increase the match timer once the match is over lol. Doing a rematch is kinda like extending the timer after a match has gone to time, except resetting the % damage.

 

[hichez50]

what about make the game 2 stock and keep the 8 minute timer?

 

[CT Chia]

too bad fall speed isn't necessarily a good quality. Infact its bad most of the time.

Terrible fall speed is one of my most hated things about ROB. A good fall speed does wonders against MK, making it much tougher for him to uair string you and trap you into nados. However it's good for MK not to have fast fall speed against MK since he can beat nado easily from the top.

 

[DMG]

what about make the game 2 stock and keep the 8 minute timer?

That's something honestly we need to consider. We should probably make the game 2 stock 6-7 min timer. If we have to, make sets 3/5 instead of 2/3.

 

[Judo777]

Terrible fall speed is one of my most hated things about ROB. A good fall speed does wonders against MK, making it much tougher for him to uair string you and trap you into nados. However it's good for MK not to have fast fall speed against MK since he can beat nado easily from the top.

I think MK has one of the better fall speeds in the game. Fast enough to get him to the ground but not too fast that he gets gayed (even Snake gets gayed by Sheik ftilt and Pika cgs)

 

[Kuro~]

From what i've seen ike can hold his own against oli. I mean i could see why...gimp set ups, great jab, nice range, nice kill power, GREAT JAB.

Honestly idk how we're gonna fix the problem but we need to do something more. We took the steps we did (mk specfic lgl) and it obviously didn't change much...so what now?

 

[Starwave]

And tell me how 3 of the USA's 4 best Snakes lost to Tearbear via timeout... I've played Hrnut, Razer and MVD several times each in tourney and if beating them is really as simple as running away the entire match then MK needs to be banned or the LGL needs to be limited to 15. That **** is literally incomprehensible.

This. I'm not a pro and I may not have a right to say this but I need to get this off my chance. Can we ban MK instead of dancing around him. This conversation about increasing the timer for matches is literally taking place because of MK. Other communities (Dissdiaforums.com and Smogon) have banned several "broken" or "silly" characters. I know it may be "too" late but we could end up breathing life into this game.

MK causes:
-LGL's very existance (ok thats debatable)
-Several viable characters to be unused because said characters have terrible matchups with him.

The characters who go even with MK (diddy, falco, pikachu) and those with -1 matchups are the characters racking in tournament wins. Everyone else is damn near screwed because MK is by far the most common character in the game. Yes, characters with bad matchups against MK aren't worthless, but will a character with a -2 matchup ever win a huge tournament?!? Pit (or any -2 characters vs MK) for example will never win a huge tournament, MK won't let him.

Feel free to disagree though.

 

[Reizilla]

Just increase the timer to 10 minutes, ya dopes! "3 minutes per stock, with an extra minute for particularly long games." Reduces the number of games that will go to time, because most people agree that the % rule isn't the greatest rule ever, so an increase in timer will decrease how much it needs to be used.

Let's face it, Brawl has evolved into (in most cases) a much slower game than we originally thought. There's no reason for us to still be using a primitive timer.

 

[John12346]

The official results for Genesis haven't been posted yet, but from what I've heard, this is the top 8

1: M2k
2: Ally
3: ADHD
4: Gnes
5: Zex
5: Tyrant
7: Tearbear
7: Rich Brown

I see 5 Metaknights.

I also see a former "somewhat decently placing Marth in his region" who got 5th in a NATIONAL after switching to Metaknight

 

[Coney]

I also see a former "somewhat decently placing Marth in his region" who got 5th in a NATIONAL after switching to Metaknight

wasn't zex #1 on the norcal PR for a long while, if he isn't now? i'm fairly sure he's always been ranked pretty high in his region

maybe i'm outdated, you DO handle all the results around here!

 

[John12346]

If what you said is true, then I must've received some misinformation from my source. After checking my charts, Zex has made money, so I'm willing to bet he's better than what my initial source indicated, who said something to the effect of "a somewhat mediocre marth player making 5th at a national by using MK."(Not those exact words)

Sorry about that confusion.

At everyone else:

The official results for Genesis haven't been posted yet, but from what I've heard, this is the top 8

1: M2k
2: Ally
3: ADHD
4: Gnes
5: Zex
5: Tyrant
7: Tearbear
7: Rich Brown

I see 5 Metaknights.

I hate it when my post turns out to be the last for that page... >.<;

 

[Chuee]

The tearbear thing is actually easy to solve.
1. Put a scrooging limit (can't glide under stage more than 2-3 times in a row)
2. Increase time limit to 10
done

The official results for Genesis haven't been posted yet, but from what I've heard, this is the top 8

1: M2k
2: Ally
3: ADHD
4: Gnes
5: Zex
5: Tyrant
7: Tearbear
7: Rich Brown

I see 5 Metaknights.

I also see a former "somewhat decently placing Marth in his region" who got 5th in a NATIONAL after switching to Metaknight

to be fair 2 of them also used other characters and half of top 4 is diddy =)

 

[Kuro~]

The tearbear thing is actually easy to solve.
1. Put a scrooging limit (can't glide under stage more than 2-3 times in a row)
2. Increase time limit to 10
done


to be fair 2 of them also used other characters and half of top 4 is diddy =)

The diddy's didn't have to play any good snakes though

 

[BSP]

If it wasn't for ally, and barely at that, there wouldn't be any snake in the top positions. Poor Snake.

That MK MU

Seriously though, the scrooging was only a problem on Smashville correct? Couldn't we just strike SV?

Oh wait, no, you'd just get CP'd there. MK turning smashville into a counterpick

I've heard this before: If the match goes to time, MK loses. Thoughts?

 

[Juushichi]

We need a MK-use limit. I say about five times per tournament. The friend who suggested that is a genius.

It solves almost all our problems. Thanks, Armor!

 

[Chuee]

The diddy's didn't have to play any good snakes though

You're absolutely right.

 

[Tesh]

Zex only switched to Marth when he was certain he was going to lose the set because his MK wasn't good enough. Marth is a joke.

 

[John12346]

Keep in mind those are the two BEST Diddies in the top 8, while 3 of the MK users in the top 8 aren't even the best MKs in the country

Also yeah let's put in more and more surgical rules to make MK a worse character!

 

[Tesh]

Pretty soon someone is going to post in this thread, about how skilled those MK players are and how the character coincidentally attracts the best players. Then maybe PierceD will tell us about how we should all be footstooling the tip of shuttle loop. Then someone will say we should remove a bunch of stages from the CP list and the conversation will go in a nice little circle again.

At least this time ESAM can't chime in with MKs even matchups.