Official BBR Tier List v6

[Deleted member]

Falco gets CG'd as well.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

So, can we agree that Pikachu doesn't go even with Meta Knight now?

 

[Judo777]

So, can we agree that Pikachu doesn't go even with Meta Knight now?

^^^^^^^^^ so much this

 

[Starwave]

Hmmm so why was the matchup even in the first place? I understands the matchup itself could be outdated / incorrect, but I want to know what Pikachu in particular does to MK.

I'd also like to know how Falco and Diddy are even against MK. I hope I don't sound too demanding...

 

[Espy Rose]

Well really, the only ones who thought he went even were ESAM and anyone who agreed with him.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Hmmm so why was the matchup even in the first place? I understands the matchup itself could be outdated / incorrect, but I want to know what Pikachu in particular does to MK.

I'd also like to know how Falco and Diddy are even against MK. I hope I don't sound too demanding...

Sure, buddy. These are all tl;dr, though.

Pikachu has a chaingrab from 0 to 60-something%. Pikachu can reliably recover against Meta Knight, and supposedly has solid combos in the matchup.

Falco has a regular chaingrab, can keep Meta Knight out alright with a combination of his back roll, Jab, Grab, and Dash Attack, and can camp alright. Down-B beats Tornado.

Diddy controls the ground quite well with bananas and can completely negate Meta Knight's...everything via tripping. Just a generally great character.

 

[Judo777]

Hmmm so why was the matchup even in the first place? I understands the matchup itself could be outdated / incorrect, but I want to know what Pikachu in particular does to MK.

I'd also like to know how Falco and Diddy are even against MK. I hope I don't sound too demanding...

Primarily because ESAM doesn't realize how good he really is. While Pika has some viable options against MK I believe he just outplays most people by a decent amount. And more so due to a lack of any pikas at top levels no one knows the Pika MU as well as ESAM knows the MK MU.

 

[Starwave]

Thanks a lot you two, I appreciate it.

 

[OverLade]

Pikachu isn't even that good. Most of top tier beats him. ESAM is talented and confused that with him maining an amazing character...

 

[Tesh]

Marth too.

Marth sucks even worse than Pikachu.

 

[Ripple]

sheik is underrated. thoughts?

 

[Kantrip]

Yeah, just ask Player-1.

 

[Chuee]

sheik is underrated. thoughts?

maybe a little, but she still gets bodied by quite a few characters.

 

[san.]

A little, but the characters above her are probably better than her at the moment still.

 

[B.A.M.]

After watching GF I must say; MK is really killing this game. Ive never been so ashamed of playing this game than today. It was so dumb. Meta needs to be SS tier/ rant

 

[san.]

I didn't see anything particularly different than other tournaments. M2k almost got 2stocked by Ally's Snake.

 

[Judo777]

People always say I'm dumb for saying this but I feel one of Sheiks problems is the actuality of using her in a tournament environment. Not only is she hard to play due to the great precision she requires but her weight/risk/reward on things is really tiresome and hard to deal with.

The first thing you need to realize is that essentially sheik loses every trade in the game. If 2 people trade hits of about the same damage sheik ALWAYS loses cause shes light and she can't kill. In a tournament environment this is an issue because you are being exposed to lots of new styles of gameplay. Mixups and tricks and habits that your region doesn;t use are being used by other regions and new player you have no experience with. Everytime you get caught for not knowing a players little tricks and mixups (not even character dependent you can know the char and not be used to certain things) is MUCH worse for Sheik then everytime you catch them with something they aren't familar with.

In short when I travel I always do much worse against players I don't know who might not even be as good as players I do know simply because I lose trades and everything I'm not used to hurts me worse than things they aren't used to. This sounds kinda weird but I don't think I'm wrong.

I play Kel all the time. I can usually take Kel to last hit all the time and I have beat him in pools before (granted he normally beats me). But I have several times in tourney lost to scrub MK's because I have never played them before and I got caught with stuff that Kel doesn't use (its not even like its that the option is smarter its just different.

Sheik is a char that gets (significantly) better the more familar you are with the other player. But that is not conducive to a tournament environment.

Also as i said she gets very tiring to play. Do to the way she is designed she deals damage pretty easy at early percents then has a little harder time at high percents but still not too hard. Since she has an easier time racking damage but low kill power she has to rack alot more than other chars. So take the Snake MU. It's almost even. But in that MU I have to first rack Snake up to about 90 (which isn't hard at all, sheiks good at it) after that I have to then juggle him until I can get him to kill percents (about 160 minimum). That means I have to read Snakes aerial options about 16 times in a row to get enough damage in so Snake can't really hurt you. Conversely when I mess up I might take a bair or a grenade (each is about 1/7 of my total stock), or if he gets back and I get Ftilted that almost 1/4 of my stock. The work ratio is ludirous and while its certainly do able because sheik is good at juggling and responding quickly to stuff (cause shes fast) it doesn't change the fact that its hard on me the player.

Sry for wall of text.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

People always say I'm dumb for saying this but I feel one of Sheiks problems is the actuality of using her in a tournament environment ... she requires but her weight/risk/reward on things is really tiresome and hard to deal with.

lol This is really the only reason Snake has been considered so great for such a long period of time against so many match-ups. He tanks hits and he can hit hard back. Ignoring a few other things such as recovery, safety of moves, etc.

 

[Kuro~]

I didn't see anything particularly different than other tournaments. M2k almost got 2stocked by Ally's Snake.

I'm sorry m2k vs adhd was ****ing ******** and i feel downright dirty for seeing it. Also ally only won w/snake on fd...though i wish he had used snake on sv so i could of had something better than frigate to compare it to but w/e,

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Pikachu isn't even that good. Most of top tier beats him. ESAM is talented and confused that with him maining an amazing character...

This so much.

Gonna revive some of my '09 thoughts and claim that Olimar is top 5 in this game. I think his overall match-up spread against MK / Snake / Diddy is equal or better to Falco.

 

[DMG]

I disagree with Olimar top 5. I think ideally Marth is better, but result wise he's still got room to go to solidly say that he's better than Olimar (however Zex had a great showing with him along MK, and Mike still didn't do bad or anything)

 

[Shaya]

Honestly? I think Olimar is feasibly that top 5 area. Like he's currently 8th, but he's in the same tier as 5th, the gaps not that large but I do feel he's closer to that 'amazing' than Pika.

I didn't vote this time around for the tier list, but I did say that I felt Olimar was 5th last time I gave my opinion of the game
However, some Nike tournament data kinda changed my opinion.

I kinda feel like Olimar is a more consistent ICs (as in that similar 'oh **** risk' factor). They're also like the best auto-pilot character in the game. I wish Marth could win tournaments with 3 unique inputs (B + Side, grab + side, usmash)

 

[Eddie G]

I don't know, ESAM's Pikachu kind of started playing like a sloppy grab fiend after he used the ICs. If you ain't Ally, stick to yo main son.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Marth isn't and will never be better than Olimar imo. Olimar does do equal or better against MK, Snake, IC and only does worse against Falco, while doing better against Diddy, DDD and Pikachu just to name the better characters. Further down the tier list Olimar is a lot better against DK, Kirby, Ike ... what match-ups is Marth undeniably better than Olimar in other than Falco? Peach, Luigi and the Earthbound kids? Big deal ...?!?
I think both are +1 against Wario but Marth might be a bit better than that - all in all Olimar seems stronger and has more potential to grow in match-ups like Diddy or MK than Marth does.

I still see Marth as 7th best character, MAYBE 8th. Anything higher than that requires a lot of putting lipstick on the pig in regards to his match-up spread and an unreasonable amount of consideration in regards EU results [and ignoring pretty much everything else that speaks against him].

 

[Ussi]

Olimar and Marth do roughly the same vs Ike..

Olimar is easier to kill with bthrow > dash attack > gimp but has better zoning/disjoint and a dumb grab over Marth

/doesn'tmatter

I'm with Olimar being 5th as well

 

[Shaya]

Olimar does better against diddy and ics? :S

I thought both were considered losing match ups for him.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think Oli is ~0 vs Diddy, whereas Marth is -1 or -2 vs Diddy. Both are -1 vs ICs imo. Against Ike Marth is +1 and Oli +2 imo. I really don't see what particular problem Ike is supposed to have against Marth other than Marth being a better character overall ... Olimar looks kinda bad for Ike though.

 

[Shaya]

Not sure why Ike is too important

Marth does better against Wolf than olimar though =)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Olimar doesn't lose to Wolf fyi

And Ike isn't important but Ussi mentioned it so I addressed that as well. It's just my opinion obviously and I think Olimar's MU spread against the top 3 alone [there should be a tier gap between Snake/Diddy and Falco imo] makes Olimar a bigger tourney threat than Marth could be now or become in the future.

1. MK
2.Diddy / Snake
[gap]
4. Falco
5. Olimar
6. IC
[gap]
7. Marth

That's how I think it should be. ICs can probably rise the highest out of those but all non-japanese ICs are disgustingly terrible at this game and 9B/Kakera both don't use IC anymore.

 

[M@v]

So, can we agree that Pikachu doesn't go even with Meta Knight now?

I never thought pika won. Always thought it was +1 MK's favor.


Me(and I'm sure many others) when I first saw the BBR MU chart on pika vs mk:

 

[Shaya]

Against MK? Similar match up. Some may argue BETTER for Marth.
Diddy? Similar match up (imo). Some may argue better for Olimar.
Snake? Similar match up. Sky's the limit on what people think the olimar/snake MU is.
Falco? Marth's better
Wario? Marth's better. Oli may not even win the mu.
ICs? Marth's probably better.
Against Pika? They're both losing mus for Pika imo... not sure how good it is for olimar.

 

[Ussi]

Ike used to have it real bad until bthrow > dash attack was discovered to work on Olimar. Really sets up gimps on him at 60-100%.

/donewithirrelevant info

ICs are tough to judge.. But with all the stages legal in the US, most ICs have a 2ndary/are a 2ndary.

 

[M@v]

Ugh, Falco vs Marth. I can only stand fighting marth when I have tons of room to stay away from that sword :3

 

[Shaya]

ughh, marth v falco.I can only stand fighting Falco when I have tons of EPIC REACTION SPEED to jab away at his phantasm :3

 

[M@v]

I will admit its annoying as **** . At least jabbing me out of an aerial phantasm->dancing blade is a true combo for you.

 

[Reizilla]

Are we banning Diddy yet? Fkn monkey plays so gay, just standing there and shooting peanuts. I'd rather watch MK dittos any day.

 

[Eddie G]

Are we banning Diddy yet? Fkn monkey plays so gay, just standing there and shooting peanuts. I'd rather watch MK dittos any day.

You lost credibility with that second sentence.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Olimar has some nice MUs, Falco seems to be his worst based on what people have told me. Loses to Luigi and Peach are odd throw-ins but his pros like his MU vs Snake and such help him a bit.

 

[M@v]

are we banning diddy yet? Fkn monkey plays so gay, just standing there and shooting peanuts. I'd rather watch mk dittos any day.

LLLLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLl.

Olimar has some nice MUs, Falco seems to be his worst based on what people have told me. Loses to Luigi and Peach are odd throw-ins but his pros like his MU vs Snake and such help him a bit.

People need to teach me Falco vs olimar. Everyone says its so good for falco, yet I never win vs olimar. The only olimar I ever face in tourney is logic though, so maybe that's a reason. Best I've ever done with falco vs olimar is 1 game off logic and 1 game off tin man(I got lucky as **** too; probably shoudn't of took that game).

Shugo lost to dabuz at cot5
And didn't larry lose to rich brown this weekend? correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Reizilla]

You know it's true.

Stupid ninjas.