Official BBR Tier List v6

[Maharba the Mystic]

yeah, europe also doesn't get to counter pick marth to either rainbow or brinstar since brinstar is non existent. that alone helps out a lot. not to mention EU is it's own place and uses a different ruleset, doesn't really get to count because of that right? (i mean, this is the same argument you guys brought up for pit/japan, so it's downright hypocritical to count EU results but not japan)

tldr: hard callout, read above paragraph you lazy *******s

 

[Conviction]

LOL that was stupid tesh if you actually watched vids from japan they play other stages.

This is too good. Go on

 

[Ussi]

yeah, europe also doesn't get to counter pick marth to either rainbow or brinstar since brinstar is non existent. that alone helps out a lot. not to mention EU is it's own place and uses a different ruleset, doesn't really get to count because of that right? (i mean, this is the same argument you guys brought up for pit/japan, so it's downright hypocritical to count EU results but not japan)

tldr: hard callout, read above paragraph you lazy *******s

We have EU BBR members, but no Japanese ones.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Sonic and Fox can win a dozen tournaments and beat 500 top players but they're mid tier. Marth gets 1 top 3 placing at some WC regional and his position as top 5 confirmed

Sonic and fox just have awesome players, but Marth's full potential finally shines through

Typical

 

[Suspect]

Marth loses to DK just as bad as he loses to Sonic. Marth is probably mid tier but some people won't admit it. His throws do 4 damage, that ought to tell you something.

 

[Yikarur]

because Marth is better

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Results say otherwise, guess that doesn't matter cause some theorycrafters on smashboards won't stop orgasming over marth's mediocre character traits

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

i honestly think they need to pick between a MU based tier list, or a results based tier list. honestly trying to balance both in the same list just makes it to hard to get an accurate list that everyone can agree on.

seriously, just pick one type and stick with like EVERY OTHER GAMING COMMUNITY THAT MATTERS. serious, if you go with MU based tier list, than you only have to update that when you update the MU list, if you go by results, then it should be updated every 3-4 months, but the smash tier system is kinda f'd up tbh.

 

[Ripple]

and how exactly would you go about making a tier list based on the match up chart?

where would d3 be exactly? he destroys literally 2/3 of the cast but gets ***** himself by the other 1/3

how about sonic? his overall match up spread is better than DK's.


a match up based tier list is dumb because you need to know what match ups are more important than others. which requires a tier list in some other form

 

[Conviction]

I would like all of you to journey back with me. To a mystical time, before the earthquake hit japan. Back when they were going to host the SunRise tourney. Remember that? Remember they were going to host it by our ruleset? Well let's also remember they were hosting tournies in japan using our ruleset so they could be ready.

Needless to say, the results in Japan didn't change from when they went their ruleset to ours. Just wanted to remind everyone before everyone says japan plays on 3 stages only bs.

Back to work.

 

[Ussi]

There is weighted MU ratios

Could make the MUs that matter be weighted by tourney threat level (base off money won? Lol)

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

only if you feel it is important to give certain MUs more weight than others. which you can do with an algorithm of some sort im sure.

and i like iblis's post. for i too must now go to work

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Gheb, do you believe that the Marth dominance in EU is because the players using him are just that much better than the rest of the scene?

Not saying your wrong or anything, it's just so weird to me that an EU player says Marth is overrated x)

Marth's "dominance" is evidently based on these two players [note that MK is still far more successfull in Europe than any other character] and almost completely so. A lot of character' metagames is based on 1-2 players alone [Snake: Calzorz / Diddy: Lp, istudy / Olimar: Greward / IC: Myollnir / Wario: Glutonny], which makes it really hard to attribute a characters' success to anything *other* than the player. MK has a solid player basis of ~4 players that can do well at any event. Everything else is almost entirely up to the individual player.

Honestly, I think at least Leon is kind if wasting his time with Marth. He's such a smart player I think the depth of a character like Snake or Diddy Kong would provide him with much more room for creativity and personal mindgames than Marth does. I mean, it's completely up to him and if he thinks he's at his best with Marth then so be it ... but I personally can't see how that's supposed to be the case.

Meta, DDD, and Diddy are Marth's 3 hardest MU's. Everything else is at least even or advantage.

Well the thing is that imo those "even" match-ups are more numerous than it's commonly agreed upon. I generally think that Marth is good enough to win tourneys by himself and that he doesn't have a match-up that's straight up -2 for him but he has so many match-ups between 0 and -1 that I can't see him as a superior character to IC and Olimar - Wario I could see Marth being better than I guess.

Imo Marth is:
-1 against MK, Diddy, DDD, IC [Diddy and MK are possibly -2 but I go with -1 for the sake of the argument]
0 against Snake, Falco, Olimar, Fox, Wolf, Kirby, ZSS, TL, ROB, Lucario, DK
+1 against Wario, Pikachu, GW, Peach, Pit, Sonic, Ike, Sheik, Yoshi

Outside of Low Tier he doesn't beat any character higher than +1 [I consider Luigi, Ness and PT Low Tier characters] and even in Low Tier I see Bowser, Samus and Mario as +2 and not more than that. He just isn't good enough for a top 5 character, I think he's 7th.

 

[Steam]

We have EU BBR members, but no Japanese ones.

I like how the presence of one member of the community in the BBR suddenly changes everything. all it would add are a few opinions of top players... and honestly... does anyone listen to like M2K's opinions on tier placement?

 

[Ussi]

There are more than 1 EU BBR members

 

[Raziek]

yeah, europe also doesn't get to counter pick marth to either rainbow or brinstar since brinstar is non existent. that alone helps out a lot.

Just FYI, Marth is a rapist on Brinstar against everyone not named MK, Wario, or GW. (And maybe DK) I'd stake money on having a positive match-up against everyone else in the cast there.

 

[Deleted member]

Just FYI, Marth is a rapist on Brinstar against everyone not named MK, Wario, or GW. (And maybe DK) I'd stake money on having a positive match-up against everyone else in the cast there.

Can't let you do that, Marth.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I also think Marth isn't that bad on RC, if he's bad on that stage at all.

 

[Steam]

There are more than 1 EU BBR members

there still aren't many

 

[Raziek]

I also think Marth isn't that bad on RC, if he's bad on that stage at all.

I'm not a personal fan of the stage, but I will agree.

Marth doesn't really have any "bad" stages that I can think of that are legal in most normal places.

Like, I'd say Port Town, but our region is like the only one that has it legal and I still don't lose when I get CP'd there.

 

[Conviction]

P3 cps people to RC with his marth.

 

[Ussi]

there still aren't many

Enough to sway the opinion of everyone else

 

[Nike.]

Steam:

Europe (8 total)
.joel (Austria)
C.R.Z (The United Kingdom)
Calzorz (The United Kingdom)
Marc (The Netherlands)
Marcbri (Spain)
Orion* (The Netherlands)
Staco (Germany)
Yikarur (Germany)

Actually, EU has more BBR rep than Canada lol

 

[Raziek]

That's because we're not important.

 

[Djent]

I can't wait until

Spoiler

Earth

***** faces at Genesis 2 and proves that itbrawl: isn't all that bad.

 

[Steam]

so those 8 people completely dictate how you interpret EU results? neat.

 

[Raziek]

so those 8 people completely dictate how you interpret EU results? neat.

Do you think before you speak or are you actually this stupid?

 

[Steam]

I just don't see what their presence in the BBR has to do with it.

I personally think US and EU should have seperate back rooms but that's just me

 

[Nike.]

You said EU has a whole 1 member in the BBR.
I gave you the list of every player from EU so that you'd know.
Somehow that dictates how I interpret EU results.

 

[Raziek]

^this

10dumbsteams

 

[ShadowLink84]

and how exactly would you go about making a tier list based on the match up chart?

where would d3 be exactly? he destroys literally 2/3 of the cast but gets ***** himself by the other 1/3

how about sonic? his overall match up spread is better than DK's.


a match up based tier list is dumb because you need to know what match ups are more important than others. which requires a tier list in some other form

A matchup based tierlist is not dumb, stop being whiny cause donkey bong is too slow.
=3

*coughs*
IN anycase, an MU based tierlist simply considers each character's capabilities relative to each other. What you are describing is a tierlist that uses weighted matchps to have a more accurate assessment for the metagame.

both tierlists have some usage, ultimately it simply becomes a matter of preference.
Personally, I prefer an MU based tierlist.

 

[Steam]

You said EU has a whole 1 member in the BBR.
I gave you the list of every player from EU so that you'd know.
Somehow that dictates how I interpret EU results.

I meant it as in if one member is in from a region does that mean their results matter? what is this magic number that makes EU results count? what about Australia?

 

[Tesh]

I'm for results based matchups. And results say that Marth is barely above mid tier.

 

[Nike.]

Marth's "dominance" is evidently based on these two players [note that MK is still far more successfull in Europe than any other character] and almost completely so. A lot of character' metagames is based on 1-2 players alone [Snake: Calzorz / Diddy: Lp, istudy / Olimar: Greward / IC: Myollnir / Wario: Glutonny], which makes it really hard to attribute a characters' success to anything *other* than the player. MK has a solid player basis of ~4 players that can do well at any event. Everything else is almost entirely up to the individual player.

Honestly, I think at least Leon is kind if wasting his time with Marth. He's such a smart player I think the depth of a character like Snake or Diddy Kong would provide him with much more room for creativity and personal mindgames than Marth does. I mean, it's completely up to him and if he thinks he's at his best with Marth then so be it ... but I personally can't see how that's supposed to be the case.

I didn't realize how much of an impact Metaknight has made in Europe. Like most americans, I always thought that his presence wasn't that big (outside Kaos/Staco/Orion). Guess that shows how I much I shouldn't assume things about other metagames lol.

Well the thing is that imo those "even" match-ups are more numerous than it's commonly agreed upon. I generally think that Marth is good enough to win tourneys by himself and that he doesn't have a match-up that's straight up -2 for him but he has so many match-ups between 0 and -1 that I can't see him as a superior character to IC and Olimar - Wario I could see Marth being better than I guess.

Imo Marth is:
-1 against MK, Diddy, DDD, IC [Diddy and MK are possibly -2 but I go with -1 for the sake of the argument]
0 against Snake, Falco, Olimar, Fox, Wolf, Kirby, ZSS, TL, ROB, Lucario, DK
+1 against Wario, Pikachu, GW, Peach, Pit, Sonic, Ike, Sheik, Yoshi

Outside of Low Tier he doesn't beat any character higher than +1 [I consider Luigi, Ness and PT Low Tier characters] and even in Low Tier I see Bowser, Samus and Mario as +2 and not more than that. He just isn't good enough for a top 5 character, I think he's 7th.

I actually agree with alot of those neutral matchup's. I guess what stands out to me is IC's being a -1. How did MrR/Leon's Marth's do against Ally's IC?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

From what I've heard Ally went mostly ICs against them after losing with MK in MMs. Ask them yourself though.

Regarding MK I guess you could call 4 MK players [Kaos, Orion, Staco, BJay] not "that much" because that's indeed not much compared to the amount of US MK players. However, that's still a much stronger representation than any other character has, especially if you look at the MKs who do well regionally or with/as a second character in tourneys. He doesn't have twice the success than our #2 though [in fact the 6th or 7th highest ranked character has half of MKs points. Look here for reference].

 

[NO-IDea]

We'll just have to agree to disagree that Uair>Up-B with bad DI at very low to low % is worse than Uairx3>Nair/Up-B with decent DI at the same %.

Sorry to bring this up again, but my mind was blown away by the lack of foresight some of these players possess.

Seriously, who would choose the kind of position from a bad DI'd shuttle loop over more damage against an MK? Do people have to explain the entire chain off logic to comprehend this?

Unless you're a character with a phenomenal recovery, you don't put yourself in a position to get gimped by MK. Not to mention the potential damage MK can do by following-up.

There are plenty of scenarios in this game where positioning is far more important than "guaranteed" damage as far as being on the offense goes.

Here's a good one: falco's chaingrab. You can end with either dash-attack into usmash for guaranteed hit on the former (if they DI straight up the latter doesn't connect) dair on or dair off stage.

The first is chosen against players who do not know how to DI. The third is chosen against characters with bad or predictable recoveries that can't grab the ledge fast.

In other words, against high calibur players with good characters, dairing on stage to end the cg gives you the superior position to potentially dish out the most damage.

And yet I still see plenty of falco mains spiking mk off stage as if he can't recover. And videos of being hit off-stage with patg DI. What is the risk of holding up against ALL of MK's aerials? Up is even the best direction against nair.

A lot of players don't capitalize on risk/reward analysis when choosing their options and that's what often holds them back.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Good lord guys...

I could've sworn it was Monday only to discover it's Sunday. I'm so confused.

Anyway... I don't understand how you determine a matchup even partially based on how X player does with ICs vs Y player does with Marth. You can't just assume X player is as good as Y player.

 

[BSP]

I can't wait until

Spoiler

Earth

***** faces at Genesis 2 and proves that itbrawl: isn't all that bad.

I can't wait until

Spoiler

__X__

***** faces at Genesis 2 and proves that isn't all that bad...again

Just wait for it.

 

[Orion*]

I meant it as in if one member is in from a region does that mean their results matter? what is this magic number that makes EU results count? what about Australia?

It's an international forum. We count everyone, and the more people we have from each said community, the more their opinion is generally voiced about their said results/metagame/ect.

I don't see why people have had to explain this extremely simple concept to you multiple times. You're stubborn to the point where it makes you not only look bad, but look like an ***hole. There's already been an established community where everyone's opinions are counted, and there has been no problems that hold any significance.

We don't need some magic number, or to change a system that works perfectly fine so that you're biased, rude, selfish and alienating self can be pleased. Instead of *****ing about how you can't drop or move people around in the BBR because they are from a different region, and then just posting salty garbage all the time. Step your posts up, apply (or don't for all I care) and just voice your opinion on what you think should change instead of what members should.

 

[Conviction]

Well damn.