Official BBR Tier List v6

[NickRiddle]

Cause of some of you smashboards guys saying D3 is bad (A lot of zss mains saying it).

So what if zss has a better matchup than a mid tier. Doesn't mean anything. D3 has a better Wario, Lucario, Snake, Marth, Peach, and Wolf matchup than Zss.

If D3 is bad, then why is he high tier and RIGHT ABOVE Zero Suit?

Because he destroys a lot of characters, and ZSS is much harder to use at anything but the highest level.

 

[Ussi]

We need to have a 3 way battle for top Ike between San, Riddle, and Ryo

 

[Chuee]

Cause of some of you smashboards guys saying D3 is bad (A lot of zss mains saying it).

So what if zss has a better matchup than a mid tier. Doesn't mean anything. D3 has a better Wario, Lucario, Snake, Marth, Peach, and Wolf matchup than Zss.

If D3 is bad, then why is he high tier and RIGHT ABOVE Zero Suit?

ZSS has a better MK, Diddy, ICs, Olimar, Pikachu matchup.

 

[infiniteV115]

I don't know how bad the DDD:Falco MU is, but if it's as bad as I hear it is, then ZSS has the better Falco MU as well LOL

 

[Conviction]

ZSS has a better MK, Diddy, ICs, Olimar, Pikachu matchup.

Well Damn.

 

[Chuee]

I don't know how bad the DDD:Falco MU is, but if it's as bad as I hear it is, then ZSS has the better Falco MU as well LOL

I didn't put him because I heard ZSS struggles a lot with Falco too :/

 

[John12346]

So Ryo got 2nd at a Florida tourney 2-0ing anyone that wasn't MK (Nick Riddle being one of those non-mks), lost to Seibrik.

Yah Ike gonna be good with MK banned

Ussi, make sure you yell at everyone involved with the production of that tourney to get the results posted.

I need more MK banned tournies for my data.

 

[infiniteV115]

I didn't put him because I heard ZSS struggles a lot with Falco too :/

It's her worst MU, and (I'd say) it's a soft counter. But I hear he gives a lot of trouble to DDD as well, which was my point. I know what you mean though.

Has anyone else considered the possibility that Snake is overrated? I mean he's definitely up there, but I'm beginning to think that we keep him so high on the list because he was like the first character to do decently against MK often, and since then he has been set in stone has 2nd/3rd. Now that I look at it, he loses to (according to MU chart) Marth, Oli, DDD, Pika, and doesn't really shut anyone down except for the characters at the very bottom of the tier list. Almost all of his advantages are rather slight, and I have trouble understanding why Falco and Marth are lower on the list.

 

[Shaya]

Because while snake may be bad, he's still broken.

Broken range/hitboxes, broken damage output, broken weight, pretty mentally intensive to counter camping, and sometimes he gets a dthrow and that's like gg broken too.

Snake is the character who may lose several match ups at -1 (or maybe even -2!) but da broken factor when considering '100 matches' is hard to ignore.

 

[Cassio]

Because while snake may be bad, he's still broken.

Broken range/hitboxes, broken damage output, broken weight, pretty mentally intensive to counter camping, and sometimes he gets a dthrow and that's like gg broken too.

Snake is the character who may lose several match ups at -1 (or maybe even -2!) but da broken factor when considering '100 matches' is hard to ignore.

lol, this is so true

 

[infiniteV115]

It didn't make any sense to me at all.
A tier list should essentially be a (weighted of course) MU chart. This is because how 'good' a character is depends on how well that character fares against the other characters in the cast. (eg If there were a fighting game with only 1 character, it wouldn't make sense to call that character 'good' or 'bad' since you don't have any reference points)

It doesn't make sense to say that Snake is 'broken' when he doesn't have a 'broken' MU spread. Unless you're trying to imply that his 'brokenness' allows him to completely destroy everyone that he doesn't lose to, and that doesn't sound very accurate at all.

 

[Wave-Guiding Hero]

There are some things about Snake that I'd agree are broken, or at least stupid (I have the opinion that whoever designed his hitboxes was high on several different drugs simultaneously) but he's not broken character-wise. Meta Knight is the only character that's broken, and look at long long it took for enough people to agree to that and actually ban him.

 

[Flayl]

Don't take anything Shaya says in this thread at face value

 

[C.J.]

Ussi, make sure you yell at everyone involved with the production of that tourney to get the results posted.

I need more MK banned tournies for my data.

It wasn't MK banned. Also the results will be... odd. Power went out midway through pools and caused outlets not to work so went from 17+ set-ups to like... four. There was then a lot of discussion about to handle it ranging from do as much as we can of it and then split among who is left, to pay out to top 3 of each pool to 1st seed makes it out of the pool and runs an 8 man double elim tourny. So technically the payout was something ******** like:
Of the eight 1st seed:
60
30
10
However, that's not the entire pot and each of the second seeds made $15 and each of the third seeds made $5.

So have fun with that one...

 

[John12346]

That sounds... really complicated.

Have it posted anyway; I'll see what I can do. The more tourney results posted, the better.

 

[C.J.]

It was annoying, lol. But I have no idea who ran it/has the tio at all. I just know it was dumb. It was fun all the way up until the set-ups were cut into a fourth though!

/really off topic.

 

[Ghostbone]

Snake doesn't really have any bad match-ups

Pikachu, Marth, D3 and Olimar (and MK but he doesn't count) all beat him +1, but only having 4 disadvantaged match-ups which he can overcome is really good, plus he has an advantage on almost everyone else, he's not underrated at all.

 

[Cassio]

tbh even for the characters that beat him, you have to be at the tippy top of that characters metagame for the advantage to hold true. Which means theres probably like, 4-8 players in total.

Consider how often snakes beat marth, pikachu, D3, and olimar. Often enough.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

snake has the fact that he just doesn't die that the players can live longer and get in more reads and with snakes damage output and kill power, having a brain is all that matters at that point

 

[Shaya]

Don't take anything Shaya says in this thread at face value

You know me too well.
But that post was at least pseudo serious, even if it was articulated in an immature fashion.

And when I say "broken" I don't mean "diddy kong" or "meta knight broken", I just mean really overly stupid, but its most definitely manageable facets.
It's just hard to consistently handle all of snake's **** unless you trump them with gay **** like Pikachu a bit.

 

[Steam]

It didn't make any sense to me at all.
A tier list should essentially be a (weighted of course) MU chart. This is because how 'good' a character is depends on how well that character fares against the other characters in the cast. (eg If there were a fighting game with only 1 character, it wouldn't make sense to call that character 'good' or 'bad' since you don't have any reference points)

It doesn't make sense to say that Snake is 'broken' when he doesn't have a 'broken' MU spread. Unless you're trying to imply that his 'brokenness' allows him to completely destroy everyone that he doesn't lose to, and that doesn't sound very accurate at all.

Problem is that matchup ratios are flawed. Everyone is biased and some care more than others. Results have no bias and show the reality over theory

 

[Raziek]

Problem is that matchup ratios are flawed. Everyone is biased and some care more than others. Results have no bias and show the reality over theory

Except that results don't have the most important facet of a match-up ratio: Assuming the players are equal in skill. That's near impossible to correctly quantify when looking at results, since the best you can do is "Well, they're pretty close, but X might not know the match-up as well as Y, blah blah blah"

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

1. It's not a technicality. I go to america fairly often, and I haven't lived in EU that long :|
2. I dare you to actually talk like that to my face LOL.

Here, I'll give you a summary of myself in smash despite you being a ****face.

I go to america at least twice a year for about a month in the winter and summer. I've only lived in Europe for about a year now. The amount of smash tournaments i've attended in europe also have only been a handfull (maybe 5% or something at best in comparison to my US tournament experience).

Before I moved to EU in the summer of last year I was ranked 4th in New Jersey under ADHD, Atomsk, and Nairo (and the wins between me/atmsk/nairo where very close, lol keitaro was having a hard time making placings). Currently I'm ranked 2nd in Holland. I'm probably top 5 overall in EU as far as players that travel go. But it's hard to judge me vs a lot of people because we simply never play, and it's very clear they are all capable of competing. I haven't played calzorz/anaky/kasper, luigi player, greward, gluttony, deimos, the list goes on.

I started off brawl maining falco/marth for tournament play (although my first few tournaments where actually fox but whatever). I realized that MK fit me // was a much better option than marth pretty early on, so I mained falco and went MK and occasionally diddy for the bad matchups. Somewhere later on the line I started just playing both and just switched to MK due to getting a lot of ditto experience from M2K. For a while I seconded Ice climbers, and snake and at one point was ranked with all 4 characters.

My last year in America slowly became more MK central and he really solidified as my main. Recently I've been playing falco a lot, however there aren't much tournaments so I've only been able to use him to actually help me beat someone I wouldn't otherwise once out of the 3 I've attended in the past 5 months or so.

Most of my player influences and practical experience are from
Teh Spammer, Atomsk, M2K, Neo, Mr.R and ADHD.

I've only won 2 tournaments, both where in America. I also commonly have gone on and off playing wifi since brawl came out. I tend to SD a lot when I choke or if I get frustrated. I practice tech skill a lot. I don't know if I am anymore, I shouldn't be. But I used to be known for playing super defensive and timing people out.

Pretty much covers anything you should ever need to know. LMAO
idk why I even wrote this bored as ****. 6am here and I can't sleep xD

I liked reading this.

What differences do you see with the American metagame and Europe when you moved at first?

Lucario and Toon Link shouldn't be so high. Zamus is good, but she should drop 2 ranks at the very most. As for Rob and Pit - two of the most underrated characters in the game, I would switch their positions with Lucario and Toon Link. Ike should also gain a few ranks.

You want them under, Kirby, DK, Peach, Wolf, Fox, G&W, Zamus, and DeDeDe.

I can see Luc under D3 and Zamus, not the rest. Nor why Pit and RoB need a jump like that.

 

[Tesh]

Problem is that matchup ratios are flawed. Everyone is biased and some care more than others. Results have no bias and show the reality over theory

Except that results don't have the most important facet of a match-up ratio: Assuming the players are equal in skill. That's near impossible to correctly quantify when looking at results, since the best you can do is "Well, they're pretty close, but X might not know the match-up as well as Y, blah blah blah"

Lets not forget that this happens in matchup discussions too. People weigh in even though they don't know the matchup or only have practice vs someone horrible. I've seen it often enough to know that there still isn't any "equal skill" in forum discussions. Its just alot harder to prove to people that they are wrong.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I ignore ratios now a days and just tell people what they need to do to win and what works vs what doesn't.

 

[Doc King]

Because he destroys a lot of characters, and ZSS is much harder to use at anything but the highest level.

D3 is actually harder to use because of like buffered Pivot grab and dash dance pivot grab infinite on Yoshi. Also you would need to read correctly to tech chase the lightweights (Pika is pretty easy imo).

ZSS has a better MK, Diddy, ICs, Olimar, Pikachu matchup.

LOL! MK doesn't matter anymore. D3 wins because he has 6 better matchups while Zero Suit has 4.

I don't know how bad the DDD:Falco MU is, but if it's as bad as I hear it is, then ZSS has the better Falco MU as well LOL

D3 vs. Falco is pretty bad for D3 according to the current unity ruleset. Without Ledge Grab Limit, the matchup becomes much better for D3 (No lie).

I didn't put him because I heard ZSS struggles a lot with Falco too :/

That's true. They both suck against Falco. Falco is too gud for them.

It's her worst MU, and (I'd say) it's a soft counter. But I hear he gives a lot of trouble to DDD as well, which was my point. I know what you mean though.

Has anyone else considered the possibility that Snake is overrated? I mean he's definitely up there, but I'm beginning to think that we keep him so high on the list because he was like the first character to do decently against MK often, and since then he has been set in stone has 2nd/3rd. Now that I look at it, he loses to (according to MU chart) Marth, Oli, DDD, Pika, and doesn't really shut anyone down except for the characters at the very bottom of the tier list. Almost all of his advantages are rather slight, and I have trouble understanding why Falco and Marth are lower on the list.

I think he's just overrated because ppl still say he's broken when imo he's nowhere near broken. Still a top player, but not an overdominant machine. His air combat is just too crappy.

Because while snake may be bad, he's still broken.

Broken range/hitboxes, broken damage output, broken weight, pretty mentally intensive to counter camping, and sometimes he gets a dthrow and that's like gg broken too.

Snake is the character who may lose several match ups at -1 (or maybe even -2!) but da broken factor when considering '100 matches' is hard to ignore.

That makes no sense at all.

 

[rm88]

Snake is somewhat broken, yes. He's a really safe character with several ridiculous properties that are not really held back by him not being a great aerial character. Having 4-5 "bad" (-1 MUs are NOT bad, you spoiled top tier mains) MUs doesn't mean a lot in my opinion.

 

[Doc King]

Well Diddy and Marth have the same thing as Snake does, but with less -1 matchups.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Shaya is saying despite a lot of people saying Snakes sucks around here.

They seem to forget the things that make him A tier in the first place.

Well Diddy and Marth have the same thing as Snake does, but with less -1 matchups.

While true, Snake has a lot more hard advantages as opposed to even or slightly in his favor.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

Doc King, Zss always has been and always will be infinitely harder to play as than DDD. the fact that he has like one hard to pull off AT doesn't mean he isn't easy as **** to use in general gameplay. Zss requires much more overall difficult tactics in her game play.

 

[infiniteV115]

I can see Luc under D3 and Zamus, not the rest.

I don't think Lucario should be under either. Dedede should move under ZSS, and the placement of Lucario and ZSS after that doesn't really matter. I could see them being tied, actually.

And I'm pretty sure every character is harder to play than Dedede.

 

[Doc King]

Doc King, Zss always has been and always will be infinitely harder to play as than DDD. the fact that he has like one hard to pull off AT doesn't mean he isn't easy as **** to use in general gameplay. Zss requires much more overall difficult tactics in her game play.

It's not just one AT. It's a few actually, along with some other stuff. Buffered Pivot grab we all know is extremely hard to pull off. Dash Dance Pivot Grab involves some tech skill (Really depends on the character and stage). Tech chasing does involve reacting quickly (Really depends on character and stage).

His top and high tier matchups involve hard play. Like trying to make use out of Diddy's Bananas, tech chasing lightweights, strategies on separating the climbers, etc.

I don't think Lucario should be under either. Dedede should move under ZSS, and the placement of Lucario and ZSS after that doesn't really matter. I could see them being tied, actually.

And I'm pretty sure every character is harder to play than Dedede.

Do you really think that is harder to play than D3? Also I don't think that Zss should be above or even with D3 because D3's strategies are just better. D3 should move above Lucario. Lucario's traction can make it easy to combo, which can affect his aura play like Diddy, D3, Fox, Wolf, and also how upward slopes can badly affect him. Lucario also has a hard time with heavy hitters like Snake and D3. Also just the fact that you have to gain damage just to get stronger, ppl can adapt to this and anyone who can kill early is gonna have an easier time against Lucario.

D3 imo should be the low section of the top tier.

 

[Steam]

Except that results don't have the most important facet of a match-up ratio: Assuming the players are equal in skill. That's near impossible to correctly quantify when looking at results, since the best you can do is "Well, they're pretty close, but X might not know the match-up as well as Y, blah blah blah"

Can you even quantify equal skill for matchup discussions? Some characters are harder to play than others.

Top level results show how good a character is at top level. Which is what a tier list represents. If anything, the top level results should be dictating our matchup charts and tier lists provided there is enough data



@doc- solo d3 never places though. And this is largely due to his numerous bad match ups. Lucario only has a handful to worry about and has shown to be effective solo at high levels

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

zss is one the hardest characters to use in this entire game. D3 is one of the easiest. the 2 grab things you mentioned don't even matter because one is impossible and one is impractical. D3's metagame consist of the CG, ftilt and dtilt spacing, using bair a lot, and edgeguarding. tech chasing? that's a reading game. zss is someone who always needs perfect spacing and timing in every move she makes. unlike DDD she doesn't live forever so she has to be played more carefully. however when you master all the hard **** she has like riddle and dakpo and the other guy, zss is an amazing character. however, even though they are good at it, doesn't make it any less hard than it does make D3 any less easy to use.


as xyro would say

DEAL WITH IT

 

[Jimmyfosho]

forgot to make the font color green.

 

[Hippieslayer]

zss is one the hardest characters to use in this entire game. D3 is one of the easiest. the 2 grab things you mentioned don't even matter because one is impossible and one is impractical. D3's metagame consist of the CG, ftilt and dtilt spacing, using bair a lot, and edgeguarding. tech chasing? that's a reading game. zss is someone who always needs perfect spacing and timing in every move she makes. unlike DDD she doesn't live forever so she has to be played more carefully. however when you master all the hard **** she has like riddle and dakpo and the other guy, zss is an amazing character. however, even though they are good at it, doesn't make it any less hard than it does make D3 any less easy to use.


as xyro would say

DEAL WITH IT

This is why DDD is better : D

 

[infiniteV115]

Doc, you make it sound like Dedede is the only character that can tech chase

 

[Doc King]

This is why DDD is better : D

Yup.

Doc, you make it sound like Dedede is the only character that can tech chase

No. Wolf, Snake, and Ganon can tech chase. Also reading moves are a good thing to mention about D3. They help against his bad matchups like Pikachu.

 

[infiniteV115]

Oh, so 4 people can tech chase. Now it makes sense.

Doc, you make it sound like Dedede is the only character that can read moves.
inb4wolfsnakeganon

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

um why is g&w not on the tech chase list? if anything he relies on it more than any other single character in this whole game