Official BBR Tier List v5

[Tesh]

Spelt, you act like Espy and __X__ are the only Sonics doing well.

Lets not forget Mr. 3000 winning Final Smash 3
Shugo winning test your might 4
ithrowthings winning You got tipped
shugo winning test your might 6


@ pictochat

I've never seen __X__ counterpick it once

@ spelt again

it aint even about the dough, its about getting down for what you stand fo yo

 

[Spelt]

...did you even read john's post about their results?

 

[Steam]

Exactly. And when it was legal 5 months ago and everything in between until now (after MLG), what has he done since then?

that makes no sense

@illmatic- it's definitely something to look at. certainly more useful that your trolling.

 

[Spelt]

Everyone who doesn't agree with you is just trolling.

 

[Eddie G]

that makes no sense

@illmatic- it's definitely something to look at. certainly more useful that your trolling.

Read the edit.

 

[John12346]

Illmatic, by your logic, we should put Marth, GaW, Bowser, and anyone else with some invincible move up with MK at S tier, because they're theoretically unbeatable when played perfectly.

 

[z00ted]

Can someone please stop this?

I can't voice my opinion or I'll come off as a "douche".

 

[Steam]

Everyone who doesn't agree with you is just trolling.

err no...

he's trolling when he's overexagerrating my argument and not even responding to it.

@KB- well only time will tell. If sonic falls of the face of the earth than he shoudl fall with his results lol.

 

[Tesh]

douche you say?

 

[Spelt]

Illmatic, by your logic, we should put Marth, GaW, and Bowser up with MK at S tier, because they're theoretically unbeatable when played perfectly.

not according to their matchups.

 

[Eddie G]

douche you say?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1cAYWi9E_0

 

[Tagxy]

Steam thats only espy. I'm unaware of his recent results, but X has been consistent for over a year.

Illmatic I only use money to get an idea for how each character does on average. I dont think its the best way to look at the game for higher level play.

Well, keep in mind higher level play has more influence on the charts, because those higher-leveled tournaments will generally have higher entry fee, larger turnout, etc.

The combination of the highest level of play, plus the overall aggregate of slightly lower levels of play do coherently come together to show the overall potential of characters in their own way.

Again this isnt to knock your chart, but at the end of the day we have to remember that larger turnouts and higher entry fee =! high level play. Socal frequently has 20 man tournaments with a $5 entry with skilled players that could rival a small national. Granted I understand this is the best data you can probably use to make that determination. However its best used in conjunction with simply looking at the results from high level players, and then using your chart to see what average, low level play is saying as well.

 

[Steam]

X has not been consistantly taking top 8 at nationals. that's what was mainly referring to.

 

[z00ted]

Ok, we're heading on the right track...

 

[Tagxy]

Illmatic I honestly want to hear yours and king beefs (or other peach mains) opinions regardless how you come off. You should be fine as long as your careful with your wording.

 

[John12346]

Well, of course payouts aren't the same as the skill of the people involved in the tourney, but there is a general trend of more skilled players being attracted to such tournies.

There's also going to be the whole "very skilled players in a low payout scene" scenario, but those are very sparse, and still provide results that are generally analogous to character ability.

Look at it like this:
- Low Payout, Low Skill: This will provide a slight, but inaccurate change to the overall charting system. Obviously, this isn't good, but is also mitigated by the small influence they have on the system. In the end, this is acceptable because we can reason the overall mean of these tournaments will provide some semblance of character ability, even though it may have its flaws.

- Low Payout, High Skill: This will provide a slight, but accurate change to the overall charting system. This isn't good either, because even though the data is reliable, it doesn't affect the system much. In the end, though, this data is fine because it DOES give proper results, even if they aren't very influential.

- High Payout, Low Skill: This provides a large, inaccurate change to the system. This is bad, but also doesn't happen. EVER. It's not a problem.

- High Payout, High Skill: These cause large, very accurate changes to the system. This is obviously good.

We can also reason that the results being processed are somewhat coherent to overall character ability, because the general payout trend is somewhat analogous to the current tier list.

 

[z00ted]

Illmatic I honestly want to hear yours and king beefs (or other peach mains) opinions regardless how you come off. You should be fine as long as your careful with your wording.

I don't care whether or not Peach is higher on the tier list. Doesn't really matter to me because I'm going to probably be maining her until I quit.

Drop her? Sweet, now it's "better" if I perform well with her.
Give her a boost? Okay, Peaches are actually "performing" with this character. That's good.

Tier list isn't going to change anything for me. At the end of the day I'm still going to run into Metaknights, Diddies, Snakes, Marths, Ganons (lol), and I'm still going to be playing on the stages that the Unity Ruleset enforces.

I've practically given up on this place. No point in expressing my thoughts if I can't really back it up and people want to post stupid **** every other post.

I'm just going to go ahead and say this - This was probably the most ******** discussion I've ever seen in the tier list thread. You shouldn't take one specific tournament and amplify it to determine a character's placement over a broad period of time. You also shouldn't take into account cash earnings because some regions/states/cities are much harder than others. For example, San could live in Idaho and make over $400 a month - does this mean Ike should rise eight spots on the tier list? Thankfully, the reality is that San lives in New York and still makes decent cash with tough competition from higher leveled players. But this isn't always the case. If you remove one player that lives in a "easier" section of the USA but makes "more money" it will drastically effect the data.

Look at who the characters beat, both matchups and specific players over a broader period of time. That's how tier lists are created.

Did we put Snake above Metaknight when Ally beat M2k? Nope.
Diddy above Snake when ADHD won MLG Raleigh? No.

We take into consideration all of the Diddies, all the tournaments, all the players beaten, and go into specific details to figure out what character is truly better than the other.

People state that Yoshi should rise. Why? Because he consistently outperforms a great number of characters both above and below him with multiple players. There is no exception or outlier. Yoshi is better than any given character in Low Tier.

John's post was really well written. So props on that.

 

[Ripple]

I went into the BR and was going to count how many people had DK over peach but it turned out to be a minority. like 3/16 at first so i stopped. but someone had sonic over peach i think.

and a certain someone placed DK under PT 2-3 spot away from low tier!!!

 

[Tagxy]

Good post Ill. I agree with you about the money stuff and about overblowing one tournament/that having consistency is important (specifically why I made that large list before).

As far as looking at all players of a specific character, all tournaments, etc; I think we have to agree to disagree. I think it deserves consideration, but not as much as other criteria.

@john heres the issues:

1)At its best accuracy this assumes tournament attendance is entirely determined by payout.
Unfortunately thats not even the biggest factor, which is location. Even given a choice between two tournaments at the same time with different payouts, Ive frequently seen skilled players split the tournaments they go to so they have a higher chance at making money.

2)Skilled players are not evenly dispersed around a nation that has dozens of local tournaments per area. For every one tournament that has 3 or 4 highly skilled players there like, 10 that have none. Yet theyll all have more or less the same fee and the same attendance.

Again though Im not saying its not useful to use, I just think its important to remember payouts is simply one measurement of skill level, it does not equal skill level. And when we have other methods of analysis its important to look at everything and judge based on each methods strengths and weaknesses.

 

[Coney]

is peach better than DK?

idk, peach/dk/wolf/fox are all in the "really ****ing good but only if that one guy is playing them" tier, kirby too but kirby's definitely worse than all of them

 

[Shaya]

I went into the BR and was going to count how many people had DK over peach but it turned out to be a minority. like 3/16 at first so i stopped. but someone had sonic over peach i think.

and a certain someone placed DK under PT 2-3 spot away from low tier!!!

LEAKING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[John12346]

@ Tagxy, yeah, well I know that character ability, matchup spreads, etc etc etc and all that jazz need to be taken into account, I was just posting what Wolf, Peach, and Sonic's ordering should be on the list based off an approach simply from analyzing results.

Also, potential to earn money does tend to = larger attendance. I know there are some cases like the ones you outlined, but come on, how often do things like that actually happen? TOs generally make it a point to keep tournament dates away from other tournaments in order to draw in the largest possible attendance.

And... who says mid levels of play don't provide generally coherent results? If it really was as unreliable as that, we'd be seeing Ike or Ganondorf getting all of the money or something. I mean, I don't generally see anything ridiculous or outstanding when I'm tallying up the cash for all tournies.

Whether it's Marth or Link, if a character wins tournies consistently, we can assume there was some reason for that kind of occurrence, and perhaps we should look into such characters a little more closely.

When we take that into account, we can assume that a large sample size of mid level tournies helps us to further understand what's what about the game's characters.

Or something, idk

 

[Reizilla]

Espy (best Sonic) is above Illmatic (best Peach) on the TX PR.

Sonic > Peach

 

[Espy Rose]

I wanted to respond to every single last thing I read in the last three pages, but decided not to. Instead, I will opt for a much easier solution: A single statement that can be summed up in five simple words.
Ready?

Sonic is better than Peach.

 

[Eddie G]

Peach is better than Sonic.

 

[Pikabunz]

MM him at HOBO.

Nevermind, I forgot Espy isn't going.

 

[Juushichi]

KB u do dis instead of being at SiiS5 y?

Also, Mikey is kinda ****. This thread is a good as the amarican dollar.

It sucks.

 

[Conviction]

When did Inui Logic become valid?

I wanted to mutli-quote stuff but all I saw was Inui logic. Oh and salt.

 

[Tagxy]

@ Tagxy, yeah, well I know that character ability, matchup spreads, etc etc etc and all that jazz need to be taken into account, I was just posting what Wolf, Peach, and Sonic's ordering should be on the list based off an approach simply from analyzing results.

Also, potential to earn money does tend to = larger attendance. I know there are some cases like the ones you outlined, but come on, how often do things like that actually happen? TOs generally make it a point to keep tournament dates away from other tournaments in order to draw in the largest possible attendance.

I agree, but I think location has a significant affect. And I meant additional result analysis outside a monetary success, such as through records and placements for specific players. As I mentioned tts good to use everything and judge based on their strengths and weaknesses.

And... who says mid levels of play don't provide generally coherent results? If it really was as unreliable as that, we'd be seeing Ike or Ganondorf getting all of the money or something. I mean, I don't generally see anything ridiculous or outstanding when I'm tallying up the cash for all tournies.

Whether it's Marth or Link, if a character wins tournies consistently, we can assume there was some reason for that kind of occurrence, and perhaps we should look into such characters a little more closely.

When we take that into account, we can assume that a large sample size of mid level tournies helps us to further understand what's what about the game's characters.

Or something, idk

Definitely agree midlevel play results are handy to have.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

yo you all forgot one final bit of information which pretty much resolves this whole thing.

They both get ***** by metaknight. So it doesn't even matter.

Good day

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Sonic only gets ***** by Meta Knight in the tier list thread.

 

[Kewkky]

kirby's definitely worse than all of them

How DARE you good sir?! *slaps*

Kirby's a good character. I know I'm the ONLY Kirby mainer still around SWF that also cares about metagame discussion, that should prove how underused he's become lately by his mainers, as now we have randoms using him and placing low. I'll be back to tourneys once I get my GCN controllers in the mail, since I moved from PR due to joining the Navy.

 

[Life]

yo you all forgot one final bit of information which pretty much resolves this whole thing.

They both get ***** by metaknight. So it doesn't even matter.

Good day

Untrue. Sonic has everything a character needs to beat MK. It's difficult, but doable.

Peach is a character I'm less familiar with. As I understand it, as soon as you go offstage against MK, it's pretty much your stock. Sonic isn't NEARLY so bad in that regard.

 

[z00ted]

Sonic is better than Peach.

Them's fighting words.

 

[Seagull Joe]

i see a pointless arguement with one side trying to back up their opinion with a wall of salt and the other side not caring enough to deal with a stupid salt wall which furthers both to do what they are doing. and then i see seagullman hating on pit.

yep, im on smash boards alright

Derppppp.

Tornado beats everything.

O___O

wow! that's a cool new font!

thanks bionic!

also, sonic may very well be above DDD on the tier list.

He outplaces everyone below him at a national level, and probably has more notable wins.

I believe Coney outshines most people...His accomplishments (And Atomsk's) alone are on par with the Sonics. Just like X and Espy.

Ok guys, check it out - this is groundbreaking.

>

Let's go back to that MLG where Shaky performed really well - ok now ... let's skip a year and go to Winterfest where FOW placed 3rd.

All those notable wins, plus the results to back it up!

>

> (maybe)

> (for sure)

>

>

>

>

>

BUT, I beat Shaky at the one MLG I attended. So >

Peach

Spoiler

Illmatic 142.4
Kyle 141
Kyon 90
Lee 72
RedHalberd 60
Vinnie 51
Battou 36
Mikey Lenetia 35
DTP 15
BTC 13
lol. 11
Cheap 10.5
Sailor Princess Twenty-Two 8
SSR 7
Winnar 3.5

Wolf

Spoiler

Kain 897.5
Seagull Man 141
Christian 100
Pane 75
Holms 46.68

Sonic

Spoiler

Espy Kasrani 353.6
Blue Rogue 83.6
D1AOS 46
BSP 42
X 25
TommyG 11
Trent 11
Sonic Storm 10.5
Magic Magnum 5

Begin your interpretations now.

Here's mine:
Wolf's only so high because of Kain. Remove him, and Wolf's winnings plummet. We're also seeing a slight similarity like that between Sonic and Espy, while no such relationship exists for Peach.

In order, I would put Peach, followed by Wolf, then Sonic, but they'd all be pretty close together on the list.

So I've made 1.50$ less then the highest Peach main and I'm the 2nd highest money maker for Wolf. I also don't have tourneys every weekend LOL. I wish I did .

oh ****! another groundbreaking discovery - we forgot about San.

>

>

>

>

>

> > > > > >

San did beat me at Apex. FFFFFFF. >

are you guys seriously taking into considering cash amounts to determine characters placement on a tier list

It helps. Kind of.

is peach better than DK?

idk, peach/dk/wolf/fox are all in the "really ****ing good but only if that one guy is playing them" tier, kirby too but kirby's definitely worse than all of them

I find it funny cause you have never lost to a Peach, yet have lost to Will I believe. Also ChuDat. You've never lost to a Peach, Wolf, or Fox .

How DARE you good sir?! *slaps*

Kirby's a good character. I know I'm the ONLY Kirby mainer still around SWF that also cares about metagame discussion, that should prove how underused he's become lately by his mainers, as now we have randoms using him and placing low. I'll be back to tourneys once I get my GCN controllers in the mail, since I moved from PR due to joining the Navy.

Bair?

 

[z00ted]

How did I know that Seagullman would come in here, quote everything, and leave one lined statements?

 

[Shaya]

Sometimes my moral radar goes off the Richter as I go "500,000x more spam than what should be allowed".

I'd just recommend that people should cut the role playing/inui logic crap :3

 

[Seagull Joe]

How did I know that Seagullman would come in here, quote everything, and leave one lined statements?

Cause I tend to post here and you're always here~!

 

[BSP]

So what exactly is the point of saying, "if you take away(X character main), this character's results are crap"?

Are we supposed to ignore the character's leading performer? Then we're ignoring that character's top metagame, and of course they're going to look worse then.

On a side note: I've made more than __X__ so far in 2011? O_o. Go to tournaments __X__

 

[RATED]

are you guys seriously taking into considering cash amounts to determine characters placement on a tier list

That's really ******** if you ask me LOOOL.

----

people stop debating about : if Sonic is better than peach, if Kirby is good or if ganon is better than zelda.

Who cares? Metaknight, Diddy, Snake, Falco still **** at tourneys.

hell I don't even understand why would someone main a low tier? Is like being a pro athlete and choose the worst athletic shoe ever because you want to look cool at the competition.

:S