Official BBR Tier List v5

[phi1ny3]

disregard post

 

[ErikG]

I once beat Nicole in a friendly when she was randomly in NE. Snake-Peach has to be a +3 for Snake. For the Peach MU, basically switching the roles of Utilt and Ftilt works. Utilt eats through all of Peach's air game, and Snake never dies.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

How does Peach even kill Snake? PS utilt and dashing usmash?

 

[RATED]

I once beat Nicole in a friendly when she was randomly in NE. Snake-Peach has to be a +3 for Snake. For the Peach MU, basically switching the roles of Utilt and Ftilt works. Utilt eats through all of Peach's air game, and Snake never dies.

no offense but probably she doesnt know the MU? I have played that MU a LOT and I am sure is just 6-4 Snake's favor. Peach can rack dmg quickly if she "gets in" and can edgeguard Really well snake(like most characters do lol). Don't go trying to Utilt all her moves.. a peach that knows how to play that MU will **** you for it. U-tilt that Fair though since is a "slow" move that you can utilt to kill her.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I don't think you do overhype Wolf Seagull, a lot of your opinions match what I've seen Kain say about Wolf, so it's all good.

 

[ErikG]

no offense but probably she doesnt know the MU? I have played that MU a LOT and I am sure is just 6-4 Snake's favor. Peach can rack dmg quickly if she "gets in" and can edgeguard Really well snake(like most characters do lol). Don't go trying to Utilt all her moves.. a peach that knows how to play that MU will **** you for it. U-tilt that Fair though since is a "slow" move that you can utilt to kill her.

My post was mostly joking, especially because it was a friendly. But as long as utilt doesn't get baited, Snake shuts Peach down pretty well.

Edit: I think the MU is in the 6-4 to 7-3 range

 

[z00ted]

Try me sir. Peach vs Wolf:

Peach will approach Wolf with glide toss turnips, float, or dash. Wolf will approach with laser, bair, fair, or something else. Wolf's retreated Fair/Bair are unpunishable on shield. When Wolf miss retreats a Bair, then he usually gets slap slapped by Peach's jab.

Peach has a hard time killing Wolf. Her usual kill moves consist of baited Uairs, Usmash, Fsmash, Bair, or Fair. Landing Bair and Fair are rather tricky if the Wolf is being mobile. The baited Uair, Fsmash, and Usmash are harder to land because Peach's usual frame traps and ground spacing are negated by Wolf's shine. Therefore, she usually will kill around 160-180's with Fair or something similar.

Wolf actually catches Peach's turnip rather well. His Fair is very similar to Marth's (Which is why he has no problem catching nanerz vs Diddy lol).

Peach can Cg Wolf into an Ftilt (He will be at 30ish% with the Ftilt combined), which is no surprise since most characters can Cg Wolf. The Cg doesn't mean much though because the damage is rather minuscule. Wolf's Bair>Fsmash combo (A combo past 10%) does about the same damage output (Though this is generally verse every character).

Wolf can beat Peach's Dair on his shield if he just waits and Usmash's OoS.

Wolf's general Cp's/Stage choices are much more preferable compared to Peach. He can take her to Brinstar, Rc, Halberd, any neutral, Delfino, Lylat, Pictochat, or Ps1 and have no problem. The matchup is probably even on Frigate (Wolf generally isn't good on Frigate, least the first part of Frigate).

Wolf can kill her much easier by comparison with Dsmash and fresh Bair/Fair. His moves are very safe on shield compared to other characters.

He also has a campable projectile that can frame trap with FH lasers, though Peach's aerial mobility makes the frame trap not as likely to happen since she's floaty.

Peach's AD is *** and Wolf's juggle capabilities are quite good with Uair/Fair.

He can also reflect turnips.

The only way this matchup would be even would be if you also took into consideration the immense theorycrafted Peach "Uair String", which was invented by Excel Zero before Pound 4 (And I beat him at Pound 4).

I've played King Beef, SSR, Kyon, Excel Zero, and Nicole. They pretty much agree with me.

Choice has played Peach's on the Wc like Sky`(When he used Peach) and that girl Peach (Whose name escapes me).

I theorycraft on occasion, but this matchup I've played countless times and know Wolf has a slight advantage in it.

I don't overhype Wolf I think. I think the matchup chart is a little incorrect for his matchups, but I can't exactly go in and edit it.

I think Wolf vs Olimar is even and not Wolf's favor. I also think Wolf beats GaW and doesn't lose to him -1. I think Rob is even.

I also think Diddy is even with Wolf (Though most Wolf's will not agree with me on this one, but that's their opinions).

Dedede as even with Peach? And Snake as -3? I think Snake isn't THAT bad for Peach. That's like Snake vs Lucas/Ness loooooool.

Peach's are fickle.

I think Peach vs Mk can't be that bad. I see all these Peach's beating top Mk's, which makes me believe he cannot possibly beat Peach worst then -2. Otherwise, the Mk's have some matchup inexperience/problems.

Seibrik and Red halberd are in the same region as Kyon so they should have experience versing peach. They also have that dude links121 (I don't remember how to spell his name)

I think I love you.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Im really gonna hate myself for this later

Try me sir. Peach vs Wolf:

Peach will approach Wolf with glide toss turnips, float, or dash. Wolf will approach with laser, bair, fair, or something else. Wolf's retreated Fair/Bair are unpunishable on shield. When Wolf miss retreats a Bair, then he usually gets slap slapped by Peach's jab.

I know it. Ok, There is actually one wan I can approach you that people barely do these days. It's her float hop trick. What pretty much has the uses of wave dashing in melee. Also. I dont even have to go to you and be commited to attack. I can just go near you and do squat. really if you are in a corner. Approaching one does not mean they need to attack. What you said after that I have no problem with. Though You should be able to ether break away from me or shine. it takes 7 frames to drop shield. And 2 frames to jab. 9 frames against your shine. but of course, you not touch the floor yet, I could jab out of shield or Nair.

Peach has a hard time killing Wolf. Her usual kill moves consist of baited Uairs, Usmash, Fsmash, Bair, or Fair. Landing Bair and Fair are rather tricky if the Wolf is being mobile. The baited Uair, Fsmash, and Usmash are harder to land because Peach's usual frame traps and ground spacing are negated by Wolf's shine. Therefore, she usually will kill around 160-180's with Fair or something similar.

First off, up air should not be much of a good choice on wolf. characters like him die quick off the sides. its good to use to rack up damage. Peach should not be testing Wolfs Bair. Same with bairs like DK. You leave it alone. or if you have decent reaction time. You can do the float hope to a shield. It's an auto power shield. And then Jab it/instant dash attack wolf. peach can space well on the ground with ground floating. You have any clue how hard it is to punish a Peach that floats back to a fair grounded? And thats around the average percent wolf should die anyway.

Also, Peach having trouble killing. I'll explain this to you like I have everyone else. People try to finish their enemies off early. Here is one thing Peach and Falco have in common. They are not godly at killing. But can make up for it at racking damage. When using Peach, you have to know what % the character will die. Then work up a way to rack up damage to finish the job. For this I would abuse grabs, Dair, Jab, turnips, Nair and upair (if the character is light then I save up) Every character has a different way Peach has to rack up damage and then end them. if you know your enemy will die at 120, why try to finished them at 60, burning kill moves. Peach players really don't do that. Playing aggressive leads to this. They also don't keep in mind that where on the stage you land a kill move matters. And what move counts too. Death % and stage position matters. Like if I know a character can kill me well off the sides, I try my best to stay center stage when I am at high percent.

Anyone can do. I do this alot in Peach diddys. They don't get tossed that fast. Just jump and press Z. I do this alot in peach dittos. Why people don't even do this alot vs her is beyond me.

Peach can Cg Wolf into an Ftilt (He will be at 30ish% with the Ftilt combined), which is no surprise since most characters can Cg Wolf. The Cg doesn't mean much though because the damage is rather minuscule. Wolf's Bair>Fsmash combo (A combo past 10%) does about the same damage output (Though this is generally verse every character).

Chain grab does mean something. Moves are being refreshed and early/free damage I get on you. Really if you just lost a stock, I can do this to bring some life to my main moves. This isnt melee where refreshing moves really did not matter. This game, it matters alot. So if I can abuse any way possible to do so, I will.

Wolf can beat Peach's Dair on his shield if he just waits and Usmash's OoS.

No you can't I Float/short hop to a dair, then do a bair. Then reverse jab. You are getting hit with ether my bair or jab. Add hit stun plus the 7 frames to drop shield, then the frames to upsmash. If I have a turnip, I can just float to a Dair, then fall with a z drop>Bair, reverse jab. Takes only one frame to Z drop and the hit box of an item be active. The turnip can snipe you as you drop your shield or add more hit stun. But no, you can do that.

I can also place a dair on shield in front of you to a jab. You are gonna get hit when you drop that shield. I beat you in frames.

Wolf's general Cp's/Stage choices are much more preferable compared to Peach. He can take her to Brinstar, Rc, Halberd, any neutral, Delfino, Lylat, Pictochat, or Ps1 and have no problem. The matchup is probably even on Frigate (Wolf generally isn't good on Frigate, least the first part of Frigate).

I dont know who in the world told you that your choices are better. For these stages I have better recovery rate then you and you can get yourself pin in some ****ty situations where Peach's edgeguard methods are gonna end your stock or you take alot of damage coming back. really on ranbow cruise where I can get the lead and camp/run from you.

Wolf can kill her much easier by comparison with Dsmash and fresh Bair/Fair. His moves are very safe on shield compared to other characters.

Fair maybe. Dsmash and bair,no. Peach dies best off the top, not the sides. Thoses moves wont kill her until a lil over one 100. And this is on a netrual postistion on average stages like BD/FD/etc. Only way you getting easy Kills is by bad DI on a dmash the player was not expecting.

He also has a campable projectile that can frame trap with FH lasers, though Peach's aerial mobility makes the frame trap not as likely to happen since she's floaty.

Uh-huh, also its not hard to get inside wolf with camping his lasers. That float hop trick works on it. Instant powershield, instant dash attack. You are stuck in your animation. And if you are jumping, just go under and dash attack to snipe him on his legs like when dealing with Falco's lasers.

If it was that simple to abuse, then every character would beat Peach, get her in the air and game over. And times dairs beat both moves. And I am not that slow to a point I can pull back and weave your hits. Me personally, I don't use her air dodge as an evasive move. I use it as a mindgame move. Most of the time I am able to just pull away. people expect Peach to air dodge alot when one is near. So they wait and punish. Me knowing this I barely air dodge and pull back. I do it when I FEEL I have no choice. being in the air like this is something Peach does not wanna be doing. So don't think it is happy time. Though I can't say the same for you.

He can also reflect turnips.

*shrugs* Big deal. That does not change anything. Really when I am the only character in the game that can fight with an item in hand and use all my air moves. So if I happen to go near an wolf and do an air attack while he gets scared and shines/ free hit for me.

The only way this matchup would be even would be if you also took into consideration the immense theorycrafted Peach "Uair String", which was invented by Excel Zero before Pound 4 (And I beat him at Pound 4).

No, one person does not mate a match up or character. So I would not consider a math up based on player and tricks. I base it on what the character can do to the other. Basing things on human mentality is dumb. People do not auto give there character mystic abilities or faster fames to do things.

The upair string is not that hawt for the diffucult to pull off. I stick to playing the way I know to win then risking something hard and then getting beat for it.

Next beating excel (beast peach) does not mean anything to me due to how aggressive he plays. One think you dont wana do is be aggressive on wolf. Too easy for bairs. shines and jabs>etc. So That really does not say much to me.

I've played King Beef, SSR, Kyon, Excel Zero, and Nicole. They pretty much agree with me.

Cause they agree with you does not mean I will or have too. To be honest, their opinions on this match up not matter to me. And I would go into how they play for the loses but I am not in the mood to having a mob of Peach players getting butthurt and flaming me, again for my honesty.

But again, you beating them and they agreeing with you means nothing to me.

Choice has played Peach's on the Wc like Sky`(When he used Peach) and that girl Peach (Whose name escapes me).]

Read above

You can play it all you wish. yet that does not convince me that these people abuse all that I stated here. While they go playing aggressive/fancy/etc. Also keep in mind that skills of the players matter too. If you are the better player and have more tournament experience. You would come out on top more often. it's one thing to do a match up and know your character. But how good you are as a player matters most. Just cause you play meta, dont mean you gonna be placing high. people tend to forget this alot. Player comes first. Then character.

 

[Exceladon City]

Do I smell a money match?

 

[z00ted]

yo, did someone say money match?

also, Seagull - I'll uair string you bby <3

 

[Dark.Pch]

My post was mostly joking, especially because it was a friendly. But as long as utilt doesn't get baited, Snake shuts Peach down pretty well.

Edit: I think the MU is in the 6-4 to 7-3 range

Nah. Actually it can be just like that for snake. Im conviced that Peach is even with snake and have been for over a year. yet I have been working to break the match up down hard. and then go faces the top snakes and beat them. But until then, I say he has a small adavantage.

 

[z00ted]

omfg loooooooooool

 

[Seagull Joe]

Do I smell a money match?

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

yo, did someone say money match?

also, Seagull - I'll uair string you bby <3

Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffff.

I seen you do it 3-4 times on Sonic?, which was hawt.

I also LOVE MM's.

Nah. Actually it can be just like that for snake. Im conviced that Peach is even with snake and have been for over a year. yet I have been working to break the match up down hard. and then go faces the top snakes and beat them. But until then, I say he has a small adavantage.

O_O...........Peach has a HARD TIME killing Snake.

And Money match me at CoT5 Dark Peach?

 

[z00ted]

I do it on more than just Sonics.

Wolf is actually sorta tricky - I don't think the uair string is immensely theorycrafted though. It can be done quite easily with a bit of practice.

Like 2x harder than ICs chain grabs, imo.

 

[Tesh]

I can do Uair string and I don't main, use or beat peach ever.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Man, you just don't know the ways Peach can have fun time on snake. I'll explain this another time. I have to get read for a 5 hour trip to a tourny.

And I'l MM you, once I take care of this problem:

http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=111470

Hopefully this tourny 2morrw can help me deal with it. Until then I am not gonna Money match anyone ever. I would never win it and it be to easy to beat me. Guess after this tourny I'll let you know,

 

[Nicole]

Snake Peach seems fairly even, fairly do-able. You can combo him. You can camp him. You can pressure his shield.
Until you realize that you can't actually win.
It's so close. You're both at last stock last hit.
But it's Snake.
And you're just not going to beat him, when it comes down to the end of the match.

And as for Peach Marth, that matchup is in no way unwinnable or anything, but Marth has some clear advantages over Peach that make me think the MU is in his favor pretty solidly.

As for Peach DDD I've never seen a Peach play it correctly. I think I come the closest but there are alot of things that I don't do consistently throughout the match that make it even.

 

[Chuee]

To the people talking about Peach vs MK and Illmatic beating Dojo etc etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzPgo0j5N9A
Thats the last time they played which was I think a week ago.

 

[etecoon]

I actually agree with dark peach on snake, idk if it's actually EVEN but peach is not helpless in that MU. I at least know my other two characters are better against peach so seeing someone list snake as peaches worst MU majorly confuses me

 

[DEHF]

I think Falco might drop down to B tier in the near future, I discovered something that makes most of his match ups worse.

 

[Chuee]

I think Falco might drop down to B tier in the near future, I discovered something that makes most of his match ups worse.

Please share O Wise one. inb4trolling

 

[clowsui]

what chuee said lol

 

[Shaya]

.........

/can't tell if serious

I'm being dead serious.
MK only needs glide attack to absolutely decimate everybody, seriously.
And M2K is so ****ing good at it.

@DEHF
I think he found out most characters can power shield lasers.
INTO FTILTS.

 

[Chuee]

I'm being dead serious.
MK only needs glide attack to absolutely decimate everybody, seriously.
And M2K is so ****ing good at it.

@DEHF
I think he found out most characters can power shield lasers.
INTO FTILTS.

He asked NR in nicks thread what ZSS vs Marth was like.
ITS A CLUE!!!!

 

[DEHF]

@DEHF
I think he found out most characters can power shield lasers.
INTO FTILTS.

Who needs lasers when you have running?

I have discovered a way for majority of the cast to escape Falco's chain grab, even if Falco buffers the grab perfectly.

 

[Chuee]

I have discovered a way for majority of the cast to escape Falco's chain grab, even if Falco buffers the grab perfectly.

details please.

 

[NickRiddle]

inb4dehftrolling

I'd like to get out of CGs please.

 

[Thebest1pj]

tl vs peach is even i say EVEN.

 

[Shaya]

SDI the lasers in down throw?

That's totally not possible

 

[Chuee]

inb4dehftrolling

I'd like to get out of CGs please.

Wouldn't we all

tl vs peach is even i say EVEN.

Go away please nobody cares about tl vs peach.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Who needs lasers when you have running?

I have discovered a way for majority of the cast to escape Falco's chain grab, even if Falco buffers the grab perfectly.

Inb4WolfstillgetsCg'dbecausehewillbeoneoftheminorities.

 

[DEHF]

GIMR will upload it on the next metagame minute.

 

[Browny]

I'm lovin' this.

 

[Alphicans]

I think Falco might drop down to B tier in the near future, I discovered something that makes most of his match ups worse.

Who needs lasers when you have running?

I have discovered a way for majority of the cast to escape Falco's chain grab, even if Falco buffers the grab perfectly.

GIMR will upload it on the next metagame minute.

Omfg. I hope/kind of don't hope this is true.

As a falco co-main this would completely **** me.

 

[Sails]

I have discovered a way for majority of the cast to escape Falco's chain grab, even if Falco buffers the grab perfectly.

Unplug your opponents controller.
Turn on bob-ombs on very high.
Change your characters name to Jigglypuff.

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

I wonder if this same method could be used to escape other CGS.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

It would improve the Link MU, Lucario wouldn't change much since the CG isn't a problem.

 

[Orion*]

To be fair you weren't really saying anything, just laughing. The problem with top players in Smash is that they feel like they don't have to, because any time a concept isn't understood by a player who is worse than them, they are just beneath and not worth your time. If you feel like this community has such a long way to go, then do something about it, help low level players, explain concepts that they might not have considered. When people ask you how you approach a matchup, don't say stupid things like "lol idk i jsut ****." USE. WORDS.

Or, continue to just like, LOL at people, whatever.

A. You quote me acting like I contribute absolute zero to this community. No, apparently, all of the information, writeups, youtube videos, literally allowing almost any smasher who wants practice to visit me since I moved out, video critiques, giving my aim out for public use for all of the players who want to ask me stuff, personal time, testing, let alone any IRL. All irregardless of player skill and all of that means nothing LOL.
B. Sorry but if I actually had an inkling that Alphicans cared I would probably write out the essay. But there's like no benefit to it, neither of us main either character and it's not worth it for me to write some large *** essay to convince someone something when they won't even gain anything.
C. Top players many times in fact DO give out a lot of information and are willing to talk. They might not be willing to hand it out to you with a giant essay the way you like it with a silver spoon in your mouth but LOL, I'm sorry the world's not like that. If you want information from top players try messaging them, instead of getting them into bull**** debates on forums.
D. The only thing I agree with that you posted is the first sentence.

PSing the banana or catching it... Both help my cause?

I realize this.

because I hate when people exaggerate.

I felt like it was exaggerating when you said Luigi could approach diddy

Diddy clearly needs to do more than stand in one place with one banana to beat anyone.

You should assume the diddy is reacting/camping/zoning properly not just actually standing there. Nothing is actually static in this game lol. Well except infinites...

I'm seeing some off topic spam...might wanna tone that down guys....

What's off topic LMAO

maybe a little rude but I don't see to much going away from this subject

I have a question.

Should Toon Link be Mid or High Tier on the next update?
Does he deserve a rise/fall over the characters surrounding him?

Ehhhhh. Bottom of B off the top of my head but he could be top of C also idk. It's really hard to place characters like that without the context of the tier list in mind.

he has to come at you if you have the % lead. kinda how the game works.

No he doesn't
/is actually serious do

I think if a peach becomes flawless with air-dodge grabs/instant throws and generally plays defensively, the diddy matchup becomes pretty even.

You understand diddy can just bait that stuff right? It's not like he has to throw it at you, if you're just standing there waiting for the PS diddy can even just throw it down and regrab and if you are purely reacting you will be stuck in your shield

Nicole I've gone on record as saying I think a lot of characters have overrated their MK match-ups so it isn't just Peach. MK is +3 and +4 with most of the cast.

It's not THAT bad lol

I think Falco might drop down to B tier in the near future, I discovered something that makes most of his match ups worse.

I'm not believing this until I see it. You might be trolling >.>
can GIMR confirm???

I'm being dead serious.
MK only needs glide attack to absolutely decimate everybody, seriously.
And M2K is so ****ing good at it.

xD

 

[Conviction]

LOL no CG? This means Fox will maybe actually be dead even or slight adv. over Falco? (Maybe a little too hopeful wishing) but anyways I'ma lol either way when this **** comes out.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

and zss still loses

the world keeps spinnin'

I'm bored yall so I'll stop trolling the project M thread and do this:

-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
+1:
+2:
+3:
+4: