Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
Way to repeat exactly what I said earlier, except with ratios which we aren't supposed to be comparing this to.
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Official BBR Tier List v5
- Thread starter Marc
- Start date
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Vinnie
Smash Master
imo we should just forget about the old ratios.
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
This, they've already expressed multiple times that the old numbers dont relate.
Snake was never second best. >:[
demonictoonlink
Smash Master
You're right, he was first originally.
You know what I didn't like about the old system? People used to say that 60:40 would mean that out of 10 matches, you would theoretically win 6. This implies that Brawl's MUs are like 10-sided dice, with 60:40 being 6 "A" faces and 4 "B" faces, and that playing the match is no different than rolling such dice. Did the members who explained the system before realize that all they're saying is that match results are up to chance? From what I remember seeing in matches and hearing from other people, there comes a time where a player gets so good with his character he never loses to the other side of the MU. Is this a theoretical fallacy, since the MU was supposed to be 60:40? Why can't the opponent win 4 out of 10 matches in this case, if the MU is 40:60 against him? Even with equal skill level, matches are not decided by chance, but by a buttload of many different factors, and I know lots of you people know some of them (player skill, character choice, stages, rules, player's state of mind/health, how the MU is being played, etc).
This new system both simplifies the old faulty ratio system, and condenses it all in 9 MUs: -4 < 0 < +4, having similarities to 0:100 < 50:50 < 100:0 but not enough to make an accurate comparison to it (+1 =/= 55:45 or 60:40 for example, we're using a system of our own creation with our own definitions and limiters, but you could say that +1 feels the same as 55:45, 60:40 or something around those). If you're trying to actively compare both -which you shouldn't-, +1 will be up to your own interpretation of what it means in the old ratio system, because we did not make this system to mirror the old and instead be more precise.
There will be MUs that feel easier or harder than others in the same tier, but from our discussions when resolving these discrepancies, we decided to categorize them under the tier they were closest to. If there was an MU which was +2 or +3, but no one could decide in one go what it would be, then we had to discuss it out to find where it's more closely related to, and we would also ask external sources on the matter. Some of you were probably used as external sources, but it wasn't a secret and we told you guys it was because we were working on an official MU chart. We DEFINITELY used your input and counted it as if it was from another BBR member, so your voice had a lot of weight. A small number of external sources even had more weight than BBR opinions because we recognized that they were more knowledgeable than us in that topic and that their opinions were much more valuable than ours.
There will be disagreements on the final result, but I ask you this: is there a way where we can come up with an MU chart that no one disagrees with? There's no concrete proof on how MUs are supposed to be rated, so it is all opinions from BBR members and top players of their respective characters. And as with opinions, not everyone agrees with them as easily as one can agree to things like 2+2=4, or things like the earth orbiting around the sun, which all are true and have 100% undeniable proof.
This new system both simplifies the old faulty ratio system, and condenses it all in 9 MUs: -4 < 0 < +4, having similarities to 0:100 < 50:50 < 100:0 but not enough to make an accurate comparison to it (+1 =/= 55:45 or 60:40 for example, we're using a system of our own creation with our own definitions and limiters, but you could say that +1 feels the same as 55:45, 60:40 or something around those). If you're trying to actively compare both -which you shouldn't-, +1 will be up to your own interpretation of what it means in the old ratio system, because we did not make this system to mirror the old and instead be more precise.
There will be MUs that feel easier or harder than others in the same tier, but from our discussions when resolving these discrepancies, we decided to categorize them under the tier they were closest to. If there was an MU which was +2 or +3, but no one could decide in one go what it would be, then we had to discuss it out to find where it's more closely related to, and we would also ask external sources on the matter. Some of you were probably used as external sources, but it wasn't a secret and we told you guys it was because we were working on an official MU chart. We DEFINITELY used your input and counted it as if it was from another BBR member, so your voice had a lot of weight. A small number of external sources even had more weight than BBR opinions because we recognized that they were more knowledgeable than us in that topic and that their opinions were much more valuable than ours.
There will be disagreements on the final result, but I ask you this: is there a way where we can come up with an MU chart that no one disagrees with? There's no concrete proof on how MUs are supposed to be rated, so it is all opinions from BBR members and top players of their respective characters. And as with opinions, not everyone agrees with them as easily as one can agree to things like 2+2=4, or things like the earth orbiting around the sun, which all are true and have 100% undeniable proof.
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2009
- Messages
- 11,841
If someone has gotten so good at a certain MU that they almost never lose, that just means there's a large skill gap between the players. Same with the other factors.
It still comes down to "equally skilled" players, aka assuming they both know the MU as well as you can possibly expect someone too.
It still comes down to "equally skilled" players, aka assuming they both know the MU as well as you can possibly expect someone too.
I think Snake is an OK character to play with. I like most of his attacks and his jumping is pretty good too. The only thing I don't like is his frontal smash attack and some of his special attacks they just don't do it for me. But knowing the game there are plenty of people who find him their best character.
By the way I like that Growlithe pic very cute spelt
By the way I like that Growlithe pic very cute spelt
Uh you might want to take a basic course on statistics before ranting about stuff as simple as that.
Haven't you heard of sports betting? Point spreads?
Ratios never meant the result of the set (not match) was up to chance. Well, with Brawl there's always some chance involved, but that's not included in the ratios.
Okay, then look at this scenario:
A Snake mainer and a Marth mainer have been viewed as people being of equal skill in all aspects. They have the same amount of tourney experience, the same amount of wins:losses, and always place the exact same placing. However, there's one difference between both: the Snake mainer plays in a Marth-infested region, and the Marth plays in a Diddy-infested region. These two players attend the same national one day, and they decide on playing friendlies with each other all day. The obvious result is that, even though both players have the same skill and amounts of experience, the Snake mainer outright destroys the Marth mainer in every match they play.
What would the Snake:Marth MU be?
Then how did you let the people who commented "60:40 means 6/10 matches should be won" slide? I'm just pointing out what I've seen, no use complaining to me.
Both players in the example have the same experience, they have both studied the MU thoroughly by playing matches, watching videos, and reading up from other players. The only difference is that the Snake player lives in a Marth-infested region while the Marth doesn't live in a Snake-infested region. According to the old ratio, they would both still win ~50% of the matches. Anyway, the trap wasn't even aimed at you, but fine.
The explanation of the ratings in my first post isn't a trap though.
It wasn't even a trap, you can see right in the post Spelt wrote "they both know the MU as well"The trap wasn't even aimed at you, but fine.
it was just... kind of silly
As an aside, Ally thinks that the PT/Snake matchup is +1 Snake, but everyone else seems to think it's better for Snake than that.
Weird. <3
Weird. <3
Not many. Played Razer in a money match a looong time ago. Used to play HRNut's and Afro_Thundah's a while ago, too.
What good Snakes are out there these days?
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
What snakes play good PT's also?
Oh, yeah! I played Bizkit at SNES a while back in pools and beat him really badly (assuming it's the same guy).
I played MVD at SIEGECon last October and beat him rather soundly.
I played Ally at SIEGECon last October and lost in a pretty close set.
I played Fatal at MLG Raleigh and lost rather soundly (soooo many explosions).
I wish I had more experience in the matchup, but I think I'm doing pretty well for myself.
I played MVD at SIEGECon last October and beat him rather soundly.
I played Ally at SIEGECon last October and lost in a pretty close set.
I played Fatal at MLG Raleigh and lost rather soundly (soooo many explosions).
I wish I had more experience in the matchup, but I think I'm doing pretty well for myself.
Poltergust
Smash Master
What about Takeover?
Find snakes that played Reflex, MaTa, Steeler, Coontail or Blazing Katakiri and you're close to an answer!
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
I'm pretty sure Infern has played Katakiri since they're both in my state, but idk about the rest.
I thought Steeler stopped playing PT.
I thought Steeler stopped playing PT.
The Real Inferno
Smash Hero
Nah he still mains PT. I don't think he's ever beaten Ratman in tournament though, but he gave MVD the business.
Personally I'd be inclined to agree with Ally on this matchup as I have also had quite a bit of success against Snake mains while using PT, so it can't be that bad.
Personally I'd be inclined to agree with Ally on this matchup as I have also had quite a bit of success against Snake mains while using PT, so it can't be that bad.
He's currently inactive and has posted that he will only be attending locals now, but I was referring to past matches anyway.
Nefarious B
Smash Champion
That is mindblowing
Maharba the Mystic
Smash Master
u guys who run this whole tier list business should post the new tier list after whobo 3
The Real Inferno
Smash Hero
I believe we aren't due to make a new list until the summer starts.
Maharba the Mystic
Smash Master
oh. makes sense as that is when other brawlers get out of school. going for a broader spectrum over a longer period. i can dig. im just curious to see how pit, marth, weegee, rob, and fox swith up if at all.
Technodeath
Smash Champion
Fair call son. Lets be friends?I'm not the one hating.
And that is true. So true.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
thats kind of... not possible.
Steam
Smash Hero
Technodeath
Smash Champion
The vacant spot can go to Metaknights foot, or something.
So the Every 6 months for the Tierlist being released is finally being broken for the 6th tierlist and possibly being released in June, which's the sixth month of the year. And if the 6 month cycle started again the next one would be released either December or January 2012.
666
I am looking forward to this Tierlist, despite it being the total epiphany of evil.
Maharba the Mystic
Smash Master
why do u think would those characters fall? if you kept up with their tourney performance those characters' tourney performance has only improved. u got boss takin 2nd against coney and the other good weegees have also done well, prince ramen won the florida tourney against several notable players and overall pit is doing better tourney wise in general, rob has been doing better than he was when the last tier list came out thas for damn sure, marth has/is only ever improving in tourney performance in both america and europe, and fox... well he shouldnt go down but i can see him staying where he is and mayb going up 1 spot. however there have been other characters with notable performance so he could very well just stay put
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