Official BBR Tier List v5

[Z'zgashi]

Fox has been too high since this tier list was released.

 

[Chuee]

No hes fine

 

[Z'zgashi]

Wolf > Fox at least

 

[Chuee]

Fox > wolf
Law of the land

 

[Z'zgashi]

Wolf > Ganon > Fox

 

[Flayl]

I believe we aren't due to make a new list until the summer starts.

you're going to realease one soon represented by a matchup chart

 

[Seagull Joe]

Wolf > Fox at least

I think they're both about equal.

 

[Deleted member]

I think they're both about equal.

YOU THOUGHT WRONG.

On a serious note, Wolf>Fox, but they should be adjacent to each other.

 

[Tesh]

Should be

A tier
Wolf, Sheldar, Fox, Sheik, Snake, Sonic

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

(minus snake)only if they reverse the tier letter alphabet tho^^

 

[Juushichi]

you're going to realease one soon represented by a matchup chart

This man, as usual, makes a good point. Most matchup charts for 2D fighters (inb4 smash is not a 2D or fighter, heard the **** already) are in fact the tier lists.

 

[Xyro77]

i disagree on a tier list for smash being made based off of MUs. DDD would be WAY to high because pretty much anybody he can CG he beats.

 

[Flayl]

Matchup-based tier lists are weighed according to how good the characters are. Beating Snake is more of an accomplishment than beating Mario. Since Dedede doesn't do too good against the characters above him with a few exceptions, I wouldn't expect him to be that overrated.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Basically. Can you name many high tier characters that don't molest a great deal of the cast or have at least a decent advantage against almost everyone (Marth)? It would balance itself out pretty well.

 

[Xyro77]

Matchup-based tier lists are weighed according to how good the characters are. Beating Snake is more of an accomplishment than beating Mario. Since Dedede doesn't do too good against the characters above him with a few exceptions, I wouldn't expect him to be that overrated.

What im trying to say is when you make a list based off of MU you are gonna get points based off of how bad you win/lose the MU. DDD has MASSIVE advantages vs low/mid tiers(for example) while other high tier only have a slight advantage yet we already know a **** ton of high tiers are MUCH better than ddd but they will be lower than him on the list cause he has better MUs over all.


See what im saying?


Its like sheik in melee, she has way better MU than the rest of the cast but clearly is not the best char. But because of a MU based chart she would be top.

 

[ShadowLink84]

What im trying to say is when you make a list based off of MU you are gonna get points based off of how bad you win/lose the MU. DDD has MASSIVE advantages vs low/mid tiers(for example) while other high tier only have a slight advantage yet we already know a **** ton of high tiers are MUCH better than ddd but they will be lower than him on the list cause he has better MUs over all.


See what im saying?


Its like sheik in melee, she has way better MU than the rest of the cast but clearly is not the best char. But because of a MU based chart she would be top.

You're arguing preference, there really is no point in doing so.
-_-

 

[Xyro77]

You're arguing preference, there really is no point in doing so.
-_-

I am???????????????

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

i disagree on a tier list for smash being made based off of MUs. DDD would be WAY to high because pretty much anybody he can CG he beats.

well not to disagree but that's not entirely true. he can cg people like pit, falco, pikachu, luigi, and others but hell falco and pika beat ddd (mayb pit 2 but that's up in the air so to speak on both boards) and there are plenty of people who contend very well against him. plus if you are doing it based on match ups that is honestly the only way it will ever be fair AND correct. and unfortunately the current tier system does not allow both. if anything it would be good to do it this way on the upcoming tier list and then if for some reason it did not work well they could just switch it in 6 months. although to be honest the tier list don't matter TOO much (although nothing against tiers) just do to the fact that people who matter will stick with their mains regardless of tier placing like usuall

besides if he does do hella well against the cast majority then mayb he does deserve to be higher up. and like i said ^ if it don't work out then they will switch it

 

[C.J.]

No... just no. He can't CG Pika/Falco. Also, Pit is even (I think) and idk about luigi. I can't see it being even though, I definitely think DDD wins it.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

he can't cg those two!? wow i could've sworn...

but then again i guess this just goes to show always the pit mains lol

now ima go study the DDD mus and make a more educated post

 

[Xyro77]

well not to disagree but that's not entirely true. he can cg people like pit, falco, pikachu, luigi, and others but hell falco and pika beat ddd (mayb pit 2 but that's up in the air so to speak on both boards) and there are plenty of people who contend very well against him. plus if you are doing it based on match ups that is honestly the only way it will ever be fair AND correct. and unfortunately the current tier system does not allow both. if anything it would be good to do it this way on the upcoming tier list and then if for some reason it did not work well they could just switch it in 6 months. although to be honest the tier list don't matter TOO much (although nothing against tiers) just do to the fact that people who matter will stick with their mains regardless of tier placing like usuall

besides if he does do hella well against the cast majority then mayb he does deserve to be higher up. and like i said ^ if it don't work out then they will switch it

No... just no. He can't CG Pika/Falco. Also, Pit is even (I think) and idk wario. I can't see it being even though, I definitely think DDD wins it.

he can't cg those two!? wow i could've sworn...

but then again i guess this just proves always the pit mains lol

............ok im outta here

 

[Z'zgashi]

ddd gets beat by pika and falco

 

[Espy Rose]

CJ, what are you talking about?

Marth has percentage based chain grabs on both Pikachu AND Falco.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

CJ, what are you talking about?

Marth has percentage based chain grabs on both Pikachu AND Falco.

They're talking about King Dedede.

 

[Ripple]

if we make a tier list based off MU D3 would probably be first. the only reason people would say "no, he isn't" is if they already have the prior knowledge that MK is the best character.

a character can be the best character and still have a disadvantage but you'd have to know that the few characters that beat him are already better than him

 

[C.J.]

Espy, you scared me there. Yeah, talking about DDD as far as I can tell.

@Xyro: According to the Pit that posted here awhile ago DDD/Pit is evenish, like I said I have no idea about Luigi. And I'm pretty sure (and by that I mean I've never been able to do it once) that DDD can't CG pika/Falco... so I don't know why I was included in that.

 

[Xyro77]

if we make a tier list based off MU D3 would probably be first. the only reason people would say "no, he isn't" is if they already have the prior knowledge that MK is the best character.

a character can be the best character and still have a disadvantage but you'd have to know that the few characters that beat him are already better than him

thus why i think MU based tier lists are creamy poop.

 

[Coney]

if you didn't weigh any characters popularity and tournament presence, ddd would most definitely be first i think

but alas, bad characters are less popular

 

[Tesh]

Wouldn't MK still be first? Beating every character is better than beating 3/4ths.

 

[Espy Rose]

Ah, my mistake. My mind snuck "Marth" in at the beginning of your post.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Dedede loses to a fair amount of characters, and doesn't even have that great of an advantage against many of the people he does beat. Most of the characters that get molested stand little chance against other characters, too.

We just need to be more realistic about some of the greatly-disadvantaged low tiers, and it would fall into place rather well. If Dedede really invalidates a great deal of the cast, assuming the characters you go against are more or less randomized, he covers matchups better than almost anyone else, and that's all a high placing would really mean on such a list. It doesn't really reflect the current metagame a great deal (pocket MK, etc.).

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

well think about it this way. if you make a tier list based on matchup numbers you would have to ratio each character's positive AND negative matchups to come up with an actually balanced list. now since mk only has positive matchups and no negative matchups he would place first. then it would be marth because his only two losing MUs are mk and ddd (as opposed to ddd being second as he does have more negative matchups than a lot of the high tiers). then it would be snake or diddy as they have the next best win/lose ratios. now from here since the DDD boards either don't have a complete match up thread or i just can't find it no matter how hard i look i can't say whether or not he would be next. but DDD aside you would see characters (and from here im not doing them in order) like falco, zss, pit, wario, pickachu, ICs, ROB. these characters all have great match ups (hell a lot of them lose to less characters and go even with more character than DDD does) however they all have AT LEAST 2 bad match ups. this actually supports your point ^^ reflex.

does this make sense to anyone or am i just sounding dumb?

 

[Coney]

our MU thread is hidden and completely outdated. we're about to start a new one with the release of the MU chart but um here it is anyway

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8112294&postcount=7

 

[etecoon]

nevermind, tired and I can't read XD

 

[Spelt]

thats kind of... not possible.

When I said the others i obviously meant rob and fox, derp.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I am???????????????

Yes.
Using a tierlist based off the metagame, vs making a tierlist off of matchups ends up as being mostly preference.

If you want something more metagame based then you go with that type.
if you want something thatis MU based, which IMO is more accurate in terms of pure character capability (since the metagame has tons of factors), then its fine too.

,

 

[da K.I.D.]

one, what i was saying spelt was that its impossible for 3 characters to move down and eeveryone else to stay in the same spot, thats the thing people dont recognise about the tier lists. dont any of you watch Full Metal Alchemist? 'In order to gain, something of equal value must be lost' characters cant go up the tier list unless other characters are proportionately moving down the list.


also to the point of matchup numbers (this is semi hypothetical but it should still prove the point.

Lets take mk, marth and ddd, and their matchups with falcon, ganon and bowser.
mk goes +2 (please dont argue the matchups with me, and just assume that im right for the sake of the example) with bowser and falcon and +3 with ganon.
marth goes+2 with ganon, falcon and bowser.
DDD, however, goes +4 with all three of those characters.

DDD as a whole is now at +12 while mk is at +7 and marth +6 so now DDD is a better character than mk and marth. This is the problem with a matchup based tier list.

 

[Flayl]

Kid, not only are you wrong about the matchups, but you somehow managed to overlook the whole discussion of giving more weight to matchups against better characters.

Also since when do you need to watch an anime to know about basic chemistry?

 

[The Real Inferno]

you're going to realease one soon represented by a matchup chart

We aren't replacing the tier list with the matchup chart. At least not yet, though we consider this will probably eventually happen.

 

[Spelt]

one, what i was saying spelt was that its impossible for 3 characters to move down and eeveryone else to stay in the same spot, thats the thing people dont recognise about the tier lists. dont any of you watch Full Metal Alchemist? 'In order to gain, something of equal value must be lost' characters cant go up the tier list unless other characters are proportionately moving down the list.


also to the point of matchup numbers (this is semi hypothetical but it should still prove the point.

Lets take mk, marth and ddd, and their matchups with falcon, ganon and bowser.
mk goes +2 (please dont argue the matchups with me, and just assume that im right for the sake of the example) with bowser and falcon and +3 with ganon.
marth goes+2 with ganon, falcon and bowser.
DDD, however, goes +4 with all three of those characters.

DDD as a whole is now at +12 while mk is at +7 and marth +6 so now DDD is a better character than mk and marth. This is the problem with a matchup based tier list.

But ... that's not what i'm saying at all. I have no problem with the adjacent characters around the ones i mentioned going up if they went down.
Olimar imo should switch places with marth, etc
And i was also talking about the next tier list, not the matchup chart.