Official BBR Tier List v5

[DMG]

I'm unsure as to why Zelda/Sheik is that high. I guess during the voting process BBR members were like "Oh yea, we're supposed to include that too, lemme go put zelda/sheik on my list real quick" and then naturally put them somewhere above Sheik.

I can see Zelda/Sheik being above Sheik. But does including the second worst character in the game realistically make you better than Ike and Sonic?

I bet they caught this already and are prepared to make the better call when they start making the next tier list.

I pointed this out before the list was released. I had doubts that Zelda along with Shiek made them better than Ike or Sonic. Especially since... no one does **** with either character compared to Ike and Sonic rofl

 

[Xebenkeck]

I still don't get the "Pikachu has a only slight advantage against Zelda" thing. tbh I still think Pika runs circles around Zelda and can gimp her pretty well.

The main reason it is a slight advantage is because zelda can stop a lot of pikachus aerials/aerial approaches, with things like Nair, and Usmash. Really anyone who can stop pikas aerial game generally do better against him. Also i'm not sure but i don't think pika has any substancial combo out of throws on zelda. She can NL any attempt of a thunder kill also , and she can kill pika at fairly low percents. Pika still is better than zelda because of zeldas inherite flaws, but thats why pika doesn't completely walk over her.

 

[Fuujin]

The main reason it is a slight advantage is because zelda can stop a lot of pikachus aerials/aerial approaches,

Pikachu has no business approaching Zelda.

 

[Espy Rose]

What if Pikachu is losing?

 

[Z'zgashi]

Doesn't pikachu have a shield?

 

[da K.I.D.]

the only time pika should be approaching is if he wants the CG or if the other guy is in the air, because up air beats everthing and combos into nair.

 

[Espy Rose]

So how does Pikachu get Zelda into the air without approaching?
If you say Thunder Jolt...

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Is pikachu's uair disjoint really that big? It seems small to me, but then my main's uair is like, stupid so....

Off-topic, but I miss watching Anther play Pikachu.

 

[da K.I.D.]

pikachu can just run away and wait for zelda to do something stupid like fireball or something and than punish it, but I dont know if you consider that an approach, or just punishing a god awful move.

 

[Espy Rose]

Pikachu's uair has a pretty decent range behind, above, and slightly in front of Pikachu.
It only combos into nair if you hit it at a certain range, though.

@KID: That's just silly. Zelda doesn't even need to Din's Fire, especially if she's winning.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I love how Espy makes his avi the country Pony when he's from Texas.

 

[Ussi]

Zelda has a hard time against plankachu

 

[phi1ny3]

I'm assuming it's one of those weird MUs where Din's fire actually has a use b/c when Pika FH t-jolts he has a lot of commitment so he can't dodge/attack to cancel it out. Pretty gimmicky though considering all Pika needs to do is mix it up lol

Either way from my understanding you only use Zelda until you're out of CG % **** for sheik, then transform back and **** him back , it helps when Pika's one of the chars that sheik can air release -> DACUS

 

[Espy Rose]

@Ussi: Possibly, yeah.

However, again, what if Zelda is winning, Ussi?

@phi1: That's why you don't prioritize Din's Fire in the match up. Like, the only time you would 100% use/spam it is when you send Pikachu off of the level and don't want to pursue him.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I can see Zelda doing OK vs. Pikachu. Pikachu's range limits his options a little bit; Zelda's nair in particular seems like it would be pretty safe. But I dont know either character super-well, and Zelda has about a million other flaws. I don't think Zelda could let Pikachu get the lead though.

 

[Espy Rose]

I could see that. Zelda would have a ton of difficulty trying to approach a Pikachu if she's losing by percent, especially if he just opts to ledge camp. If the Pikachu is intent on playing a hard defensive game, Din's Fire COULD help, but I would think Pikachu's speed lets him cover too much area to safely abuse the move. Not to mention it's easy as heck to shield, dodge, or avoid as long as Pikachu isn't committed to something.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Something to note: players of light characters often think that just because they can't be CGed, characters like Pikachu and Dedede automatically pose no threat to them. There's not really any Zelda vs. Pikachu happening at high levels of play, so I think the assumption that Zelda "beats" Pikachu is not really founded on anything recent.

Pikachu has plenty of things going for him outside of chain grabs. Do any moves Zelda has exploit a flaw Pikachu has? Three things come to mind for me:

1. Din's Fire is pretty effective vs. Pikachu compared to the rest of the cast because he doesn't have enough horizontal range to just attack the fireballs and win. ZSS has a similar problem (side-b is too slow and uair is vertical).

2. Zelda has range, Pikachu doesn't. It's possible Zelda's ground game and nair make it hard for Pikachu to approach, but then, shielding is still very good vs. Zelda. She can mix up, though.

3. Pikachu is good at gimping, and Zelda's recovery is bad, but in this match-up I don't think Pikachu has the right tools to gimp Zelda. Am I wrong about this? I don't see it as being a case where when Zelda goes off-stage she auto-loses, so her recovery is actually pretty effective and she becomes harder to kill than usual. Pikachu also has survivability as a huge advantage under normal circumstances, where Zelda still kills him pretty early and at a safe distance.

This is all just conjecture though.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Pika can just ledge camp, then approach with shield and fsmash or dsmash zelda quite safely. Once one of those connect, Zelda is in a terrible position and in danger of follow ups and uair. Zelda still gets ***** in this MU.

 

[da K.I.D.]

accidental double post.

 

[da K.I.D.]

1. pika can nair thru fireballs.

2. zelda has good defensive options to beat pikachu when he approaches, but he has basically nothing to approach him with, so whoever is on the defensive probably has the better chances. However is much MUCH easier for pikachu to approach zelda than the other way around.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I'm unsure as to why Zelda/Sheik is that high. I guess during the voting process BBR members were like "Oh yea, we're supposed to include that too, lemme go put zelda/sheik on my list real quick" and then naturally put them somewhere above Sheik.

I can see Zelda/Sheik being above Sheik. But does including the second worst character in the game realistically make you better than Ike and Sonic?

I bet they caught this already and are prepared to make the better call when they start making the next tier list.

Once Sheik is out of Cg range then she can tilt lock Pikachu really good and Release>Tipper Dacus kill very early. Having to stay Zelda doesn't seem to matter too much since that seems pretty even.

because when using sheilda you don't have to use Zelda in every match, it just means that you have that option to switch if you need to. Zelda and sheik on the list are what they're ranked if you never change at all, but sheilda just means that you can switch between the two if you want. If it's not a good time to switch, then don't do it, and just because you don't switch then doesn't mean you're not using sheilda.

Well yea, but you don't want to use Sheik below 70ish and then you have to find a way to commit to down b, which may be punishable with something hard, though it depends where you are in relation to Pikachu.

Zelda has a hard time against plankachu

Lol@Plankachu. Pikachu planking is really annoying from my experience versing Pikapika! at Apex.

I'm assuming it's one of those weird MUs where Din's fire actually has a use b/c when Pika FH t-jolts he has a lot of commitment so he can't dodge/attack to cancel it out. Pretty gimmicky though considering all Pika needs to do is mix it up lol

Either way from my understanding you only use Zelda until you're out of CG % **** for sheik, then transform back and **** him back , it helps when Pika's one of the chars that sheik can air release -> DACUS

Sounds interesting.

I can see Zelda doing OK vs. Pikachu. Pikachu's range limits his options a little bit; Zelda's nair in particular seems like it would be pretty safe. But I dont know either character super-well, and Zelda has about a million other flaws. I don't think Zelda could let Pikachu get the lead though.

Why his Nair? Care to explain? I know I've seen Nair true combo into grab under certain conditions, but that seems more situational at best.

 

[Meru.]

why his nair?

zelda's nair

???

 

[Laem]

lol @ discussing Zelda vs Pika

 

[Espy Rose]

We could always talk about Sonic again, Laem.

 

[Ripple]

lets talk about bronies...

 

[Nike.]

Once Sheik is out of Cg range then she can tilt lock Pikachu really good and Release>Tipper Dacus kill very early. Having to stay Zelda doesn't seem to matter too much since that seems pretty even.

This has nothing to do with what I was talking about lol

 

[Fuujin]

She can mix up, though.

lolno

where Zelda still kills him pretty early and at a safe distance.

You talkin F smash?

I actually think she does decently against Pikachu, though the only Pikachu I've played in tournament is King.

The question is even if Zelda did go near even with Pikachu, does that make Sheilda more than one place above Sheik on the list?

I see a lot of people putting her(Sheilda) 2+ above places Sheik on their personal tier list, I don't get it.

 

[san.]

Single character MU ratios consider the entire 0%+ spectrum. Maybe some people consider that sheik + zelda's effectiveness is better than the sum of their parts when zelda is brought out above a certain %. That's all I can think of.

Only thing is that how much real-life info we have regarding how much zelda+sheik combo actually does is limited, so mostly theorycraft.

 

[Fuujin]

Single character MU ratios consider the entire 0%+ spectrum. Maybe some people consider that sheik + zelda's effectiveness is better than the sum of their parts when zelda is brought out above a certain %. That's all I can think of.

Only thing is that how much real-life info we have regarding how much zelda+sheik combo actually does is limited, so mostly theorycraft.

Only people I can think of that actually use both in tournament are myself and Scary, more so Scary because he uses both evenly.

Though I can say this, using Sheik 90% of the time and switching to Zelda for the kill move isn't as nice as it seems on paper.
A majority of the time you're better off killing with Sheik in high level play.

 

[Espy Rose]

I love how Espy makes his avi the country Pony when he's from Texas.

Spoiler

@San: Agreed. It would make sense for Sheik to be more affective above the given chaingrab percents and whatnot though. The problem I see here is exactly how Zelda will make that opportunity to switch (if she starts), or how Shiek will be able to avoid Pikachu's CG (if she starts).

Yeah...not enough actual information here.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Ive done it a few times. (not in tourney tho) and it seems like its relatively simple to switch when you have right set up, like if the character is over 130 and you land a fresh nair or down smash out of shield and immediately transform. it will complete before the other guy gets back on stage, and they forget that youre not supposed to airdodge into her. so they walk into up smashes.

it seems like a feasible strategy, aside from the fact that you actually have to e good with both characters to make it work.

 

[Spelt]

The problem i see with that is that sheik is most effective in the low-mid percents, and her strengths start to fade after the opponent is already in kill percent.

 

[Xebenkeck]

@Spelt
At that point if sheik wants to switch, play defensive till you can hit with a dsmash as a GTFO move so you can switch to Zelda to actually try and kill. I agree that sheik is at her best when the opponent is at low-mid percents.

 

[phi1ny3]

The problem i see with that is that sheik is most effective in the low-mid percents, and her strengths start to fade after the opponent is already in kill percent.

The big thing about that and why she is that way is b/c when playing as sheik normally she's beastly at those percents because she has the potential to pull off staled ftilt -> usmash for an early kill, which is kinda situational. That doesn't matter though if all she needs for a kill setup is a grab, however (air release -> DACUS). She's also good at bait n' punish, so when you're at mid-high w/ her you can start chipping away w/ punishers like bair and needles to get pika at kill percent, then once you get a grab, air release -> DACUS.

Funnily enough, Sheik has an air release DACUS on ICs too. The problem w/ that is that unless there's only a lone climber, sheik is almost never safe in that MU lol.

Also, what KID said was true, it's like how PT switches w/o "baton pass" shenanigans, just good old fashioned knock off, transform, then resume. The only big difference is Sheik/Zelda isn't forced to use one or the other (like when PT loses a stock and has to switch pokemon), and there isn't fatigue in the equation (if anything, transform refreshes all your moves).

 

[Kewkky]

Sheik/Zelda is supposed to be usage of either character when the other one would have a better advantage in the fight. It doesn't mean you HAVE to use both in every fight, you could go Sheik a whole set then use Zelda in a later match and still be considered a Sheik/Zelda user. The only thing that matters is that you're not going ONLY Sheik when Zelda is a better option at the moment, or ONLY Zelda when Sheik is a better option. Soooo, this implies that Sheik/Zelda's performance and MUs would be the best of both characters added together, which means that the combined use gives you an easier time in the competitive scene than going solo.

 

[Tagxy]

lets talk about bronies...

Bronies you say?

I call Dr. Whooves on the left.

Spoiler

Shiek losses to pika even after cg%

 

[Browny]

I thought I heard my name...

 

[Fuujin]

Sheik/Zelda is supposed to be usage of either character when the other one would have a better advantage in the fight. It doesn't mean you HAVE to use both in every fight, you could go Sheik a whole set then use Zelda in a later match and still be considered a Sheik/Zelda user. The only thing that matters is that you're not going ONLY Sheik when Zelda is a better option at the moment, or ONLY Zelda when Sheik is a better option. Soooo, this implies that Sheik/Zelda's performance and MUs would be the best of both characters added together, which means that the combined use gives you an easier time in the competitive scene than going solo.

The best of both characters added together is basically just another Sheik on the tier list.

 

[Bizkit047]

Oh, yeah! I played Bizkit at SNES a while back in pools and beat him really badly (assuming it's the same guy).

Why would you bring up a set from 09 as if it means anything now? I also wouldn't call a pools set that you won 2-1 barely as "beat him really badly."

 

[Zelderu Maryoto]

How comes Ganondorf was moved down into his own tier? And how comes he's not Middle Tier?