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Official BBR Tier List v5
- Thread starter Marc
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John12346
Smash Master
The issue is MK has the ability to so radically turn a match around with low percent gimps if the opponent screws up, it becomes very hard to approximate an actual ratio, cuz the MK mains say, "We'll never gimp (character) at low percents," and overestimate the opponent's character, while the non-MKs say, "MK will gimp the living crap out of you," and underestimate their character.
Oh, and I'm just being curious with the rediscussion. Never hurt to ask, right?
Oh, and I'm just being curious with the rediscussion. Never hurt to ask, right?
Browny
Smash Hater
dont forget the fact for MK to radically turn a match around by simply pressing b more
Actually it does hurt to ask. Last year mods closed alot of thread and infracted people for discussing it. Its officially not allowed for discussion apparently.
But yea, there are some matchup discussions where MKs will underrate themselves AND the other guys will overate themselves. MK probably IS alot of characters worst matchup. All things considered.
But yea, there are some matchup discussions where MKs will underrate themselves AND the other guys will overate themselves. MK probably IS alot of characters worst matchup. All things considered.
Technodeath
Smash Champion
I think the mods should get over the fact that MK discussion is inevitable.
John12346
Smash Master
Actually, ignore this, I think I'm trippin' balls or something. I just remembered I was wrong about that.
Instead, I'll just agree with what Tesh said
Anyway, that's why I was curious. Just wanted to know if there were any plans for the future or something.
.
.
.
Anyway, not much to say about MK himself in relation to the tier list. His matchups are wonky skewed in his favor, he wins too high of a percentage of tournament money, and he has the tools to win a match on the ground, in the air, at the ledge, off the stage, in the lead, while losing, down Spook hill, through the woods, between the rocks, around the lake, under the bridge, over the wall, up the tree, in the window, and back in bed.
Most likely staying number 1.
Funny, you went and grabbed something, figures
Death Arcana
Rum is for Drinking
it was not "super effective!"
Yamitsuki
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Feb 3, 2011
- Messages
- 46
lol Your troll effort reminds me of this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50S5pS0Frbs
It seems ironic to think back upon those two moves. When you know these two moves are going to be coming, they are really quiet punishable. Dsmash has enough lag that a majority of the cast can punish it with a shield drop -> dash attack. And with a little knowledge on the tornado, there are actually many ways to punish it and avoid it. And yet the sterotypes will always continue to persist.
Lenus Altair
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2008
- Messages
- 518
Punishable =/= weak/fair/balanced
Ripple
ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
- Joined
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I forgot MK has a terrible mix up game.
John12346
Smash Master
Oh crap, MK's gonna Dsmash me, better put up my shie-FTHROWN NO DI SHUTTLE LOOP'D DEAD AT 40
Browny
Smash Hater
Death Arcana
Rum is for Drinking
**** the troll spray we need some of this
I
HAVE
THE
POWERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
Also, yeah you can deal with just about anything if you predict it. 2 frame Uair is nothing if you know he will do it at a bad time and drop kick him in the masked cojones.
Psychoace
Smash Champion
How do you figure that?
IMO... MK's match up spread is foshizzled sugar coated by the old measure of "how many match ups out of 100".
But MU chart, MK's +1s are somewhat reasonable... Because it isn't the "same" scale.
And like... there isn't enough options to designate how hard MK beats people.
He doesn't +4 many. So you really only have 3 other options.
IMO MK's chart may have been too focussed on "OLD" match up numbers rather than thinking in the scale. People tended to think "okay these characters are easier to beat than those characters, so we must separate them by a number!"
But MU chart, MK's +1s are somewhat reasonable... Because it isn't the "same" scale.
And like... there isn't enough options to designate how hard MK beats people.
He doesn't +4 many. So you really only have 3 other options.
IMO MK's chart may have been too focussed on "OLD" match up numbers rather than thinking in the scale. People tended to think "okay these characters are easier to beat than those characters, so we must separate them by a number!"
John12346
Smash Master
If I had to guess, +4 would involve matchups with infinites(excluding ICs infinites) or some really gay gayness that invalidates the victim?
Dedede vs DK
Dedede vs Bowser
ICs vs Ganon
Olimar vs Ganon
Marth vs Ness
Marth vs Lucas
Pikachu vs Fox
Shiek vs Fox
Zamus vs Fox
Zamus vs R.O.B.?
And MK vs some select matchups
Sound about right?
Dedede vs DK
Dedede vs Bowser
ICs vs Ganon
Olimar vs Ganon
Marth vs Ness
Marth vs Lucas
Pikachu vs Fox
Shiek vs Fox
Zamus vs Fox
Zamus vs R.O.B.?
And MK vs some select matchups
Sound about right?
The first 4 yea..
The rest I would say are +3
Zamus vs Fox is really only +1-2 though.
Psychoace
Smash Champion
Falcon vs. R.O.B.
Browny
Smash Hater
ROB vs MK
ITS HOPELESS
ITS HOPELESS
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
Sheik vs Ganon. Enough said.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
infomon
Smash Scientist
awwww I can't beat MKs, he should be banned, waaaah. but the tournament results don't show it... I know, I'll invent a different matchup number system so that he looks more broken than he is! maybe then people will believe he's unbeatable!! yaaayuhz!
/scrub-diddly-ub
/scrub-diddly-ub
Uhh, I don't get what you're saying... Are you saying that the BBR are scrubs that want to ban MK but can't so they made up a new MU rating system to make him look even more broken, or what? o_o
All we're saying is that people should be more realistic about their numbers. People don't understand how much the character can abuse.
infomon
Smash Scientist
doh! trolling failed against reasonable ppl.
*goes back under the troll-bridge*
*goes back under the troll-bridge*
Conviction
Human Nature
Fox beats Zamus....just saying.
I just wanted to comment on some things:
PT: Each stock gone = mandatory character change, so you use all 3 pokemon in a match. Due to the long transform times, even if you transform as soon as you respawn, the pokemon you don't want to use already did something in the match, which was use up your invincibility frames, so essentially you HAVE to use all 3 no matter what. Hence only PT being in the tier list.
Sheik and Zelda: You can choose either at the start of a match, before the match starts, and you can end the match without even catching a glimpse of the other character. Each one has a different moveset, strategy, weakness and strength, specific character traits like fall speed and airdodge lengths, so much so that they can actually be treated as separate characters. The option to transform into the other is there, but since you CAN go solo with either, I think it's a good idea to point out just how well you could do in a competitive setting if you decide on using only one of those two characters in every single match.
Sheilda: This one may be a bit iffy, but it's essentially the combined use of both characters. In theory, what it's supposed to signify is using Sheik or Zelda whenever it would benefit you the most. Enemy is at 120%? Go Zelda and spam usmash. Enemy is a heavy character? Go Sheik and spam ftilt. It depends on the situation and not all people would use the characters for the same scenario, but it just means combined use of Zelda/Sheik. If you want to you can just ignore that character in the tier list, since it's a theoretical placing.
Also, you mentioned something about Solo Popo: You're forced to use him as a consequence for losing Nana while playing Ice Climbers. He's a part of the character and you can't avoid choosing ICs and not seeing him in every match, so he is still considered IC's. Same thing with Solo Olimar (in case anyone would want to bring HIM up).
We don't really mind healthy discussion of any Brawl-related topics in the Brawl forums, but MK discussions ALWAYS degenerate quickly. Trolling, flaming, spamming of off-topic one-liners and needless provoking pics, this has always happened whenever an MK debate has happened for an extended period of time. And with all of this come a LOT of reported posts, and we are always kept busy. Keeping a close eye on the thread for extended periods of time isn't fun, even less so when a member who breaks a rule gets infracted for it, then he bashes the mods for it and other members start joining in as well. See, if the members of SWF could prove that they wouldn't derail the topic with senseless posts like those, then I'm sure we could have some discussion happening.
There's also the fact that there's nothing to talk about. All that would happen can be explained in a flowchart, and since I'm too lazy to make one I'll just do a text-based blueprint:
1) Tournament happens where MK is/isn't dominant
2) Pro/Anti-ban argues he is/isn't too dominant
3) Opposing side says "stop cherry-picking and look at other tournament results".
4) Comparisons to SF2 Akuma and other characters in other games happens.
5) Sirlin is brought up and Sirlin-bashers appear. The scrub word is thrown around all day. BBR bashers and supporters start arguing against the opposing sides.
6) Lots of talk about MK's upB, planking, uair, dair camping, scrooging, (etc) and how it may or may not be affecting his tournament results.
7) Go back to #1.
It's an endless cycle of repeated arguments that goes nowhere, and all it does is create tension, then build it up and explode into a storm of inter-community hate. As the moderating team, I think the smartest solution here is to avoid the problem by preventing the roots from growing.
@ Iblis: I think they go pretty even. Sucks if Fox gets dsmashed though, but assuming that will happen once every blue moon, the MU is actually pretty even.
Difference between PT and Sheik/Zelda/Sheilda:
PT: Each stock gone = mandatory character change, so you use all 3 pokemon in a match. Due to the long transform times, even if you transform as soon as you respawn, the pokemon you don't want to use already did something in the match, which was use up your invincibility frames, so essentially you HAVE to use all 3 no matter what. Hence only PT being in the tier list.
Sheik and Zelda: You can choose either at the start of a match, before the match starts, and you can end the match without even catching a glimpse of the other character. Each one has a different moveset, strategy, weakness and strength, specific character traits like fall speed and airdodge lengths, so much so that they can actually be treated as separate characters. The option to transform into the other is there, but since you CAN go solo with either, I think it's a good idea to point out just how well you could do in a competitive setting if you decide on using only one of those two characters in every single match.
Sheilda: This one may be a bit iffy, but it's essentially the combined use of both characters. In theory, what it's supposed to signify is using Sheik or Zelda whenever it would benefit you the most. Enemy is at 120%? Go Zelda and spam usmash. Enemy is a heavy character? Go Sheik and spam ftilt. It depends on the situation and not all people would use the characters for the same scenario, but it just means combined use of Zelda/Sheik. If you want to you can just ignore that character in the tier list, since it's a theoretical placing.
Also, you mentioned something about Solo Popo: You're forced to use him as a consequence for losing Nana while playing Ice Climbers. He's a part of the character and you can't avoid choosing ICs and not seeing him in every match, so he is still considered IC's. Same thing with Solo Olimar (in case anyone would want to bring HIM up).
It's okay if he asks, no harm done.
We don't really mind healthy discussion of any Brawl-related topics in the Brawl forums, but MK discussions ALWAYS degenerate quickly. Trolling, flaming, spamming of off-topic one-liners and needless provoking pics, this has always happened whenever an MK debate has happened for an extended period of time. And with all of this come a LOT of reported posts, and we are always kept busy. Keeping a close eye on the thread for extended periods of time isn't fun, even less so when a member who breaks a rule gets infracted for it, then he bashes the mods for it and other members start joining in as well. See, if the members of SWF could prove that they wouldn't derail the topic with senseless posts like those, then I'm sure we could have some discussion happening.
There's also the fact that there's nothing to talk about. All that would happen can be explained in a flowchart, and since I'm too lazy to make one I'll just do a text-based blueprint:
1) Tournament happens where MK is/isn't dominant
2) Pro/Anti-ban argues he is/isn't too dominant
3) Opposing side says "stop cherry-picking and look at other tournament results".
4) Comparisons to SF2 Akuma and other characters in other games happens.
5) Sirlin is brought up and Sirlin-bashers appear. The scrub word is thrown around all day. BBR bashers and supporters start arguing against the opposing sides.
6) Lots of talk about MK's upB, planking, uair, dair camping, scrooging, (etc) and how it may or may not be affecting his tournament results.
7) Go back to #1.
It's an endless cycle of repeated arguments that goes nowhere, and all it does is create tension, then build it up and explode into a storm of inter-community hate. As the moderating team, I think the smartest solution here is to avoid the problem by preventing the roots from growing.
It's inevitable, MK's brought up in a lot of discussions due to being the best character in the game and all that whatnot. But it doesn't mean we can't stop discussions when they start showing signs of going out of hand. We're not stopping discussions whenever people bring up planking/scrooging/time-outs because discussion is healthy for the community, we're only there to stop things from going to far once a certain line is crossed, people start taking sides and arguments start getting more heated than normal.
Discussion about MK the character is allowed, else we wouldn't even have an MK sub-forum. But discussion about MK's chances of getting banned or attempts at starting such discussions are stopped before they go too far. History has shown us that it will take a certain route (four different MK Ban discussions and Hylian's "Official MK Discussion" thread).
@ Iblis: I think they go pretty even. Sucks if Fox gets dsmashed though, but assuming that will happen once every blue moon, the MU is actually pretty even.
Wow, does somebody have to explain this every 2 months? The Bowser is going to spend the game klaw hopping, grab opportunities won't arise unless the bowser messes up. BAir and edgeguarding are much more of a deciding factor, it's +3 with the infinite. Go ahead ask your Lucario homeboy RJ if picking Dedede against Limit gave him a free win.
ICs vs Bowser on the other hand may actually be +4
Fuujin
Smash Champion
John12346
Smash Master
Isn't... isn't it possible that new data that has been collected may change the cycle? Think about the thread Ripple and I have been working on, as well as Ankoku's thread from 2010, your MU chart(which may or may not change things), and the lack of any videos showing MK trying to plank and getting dead for trying it. Wouldn't that alone break some key aspects of this chain off the cycle entirely or something?
I mean, I understand what you're saying; I was there for the ban arguments and the MK discussion thread, and they do have a tendency to degenerate into flame wars essentially. But I get the feeling a lot of this hostility comes from the anti-ban side, when half of their posts are either some kind of ad hominem or "lol mk isnt going to get banned stop trying" in an attempt to stagnate discussion.
I can also understand why the mods and BBR to some extent would also want to avoid this topic being discussed publicly, because of the aforementioned reasons in the previous paragraph, but I get this feeling a discussion is becoming more and more warranted, because of the aforementioned reasons in the first paragraph.
And therein lies the problem... bring up a topic about a problem and see a roaring ring of fire rise up out of it, or let the problem continue to be a problem and avoid the flames?
Wtf are you talking about. Nobody gets grabbed unless they mess up.
The matter isn't dead, we're not shooting down every attempt to bring up evidence so don't worry about that part. If there's new evidence to be brought up then we'll gladly see it, and we'll of course let everyone else see it and comment on it. Yours and Ripple's thread is very helpful to the community and whatever information it brings forth is always up to discussion, so you shouldn't worry about the BBR not paying attention to that thread either. If it's any consolation, within the BBR there's also a split between pro-ban and anti-ban, but we keep the whole situation hush-hush until we get the "okay" to rediscuss MK's future, so for now I can't say if we are planning on revisiting the whole thing.
However, there's a point where we staff members have to stop all discussion because tension starts to escalate, and we'd rather stop the problem before it happens. The decision has nothing to do with the BBR, it is something the staff decided by themselves. If anything, it's a restriction that also affects the BBR members, even within their private forum. It's not just something directed at the normal member population as you can see, however there's a much higher chance of the BBR being able to rediscuss the topic privately than publicly because of the sheer amount of trolls and flame-baiters in the community.
The problem is still a problem as you can see from the controversial nature of the topic, but so far there hasn't been conclusive evidence that blatantly points out that MK is a powerful problem that is destroying the community.
One quick suggestion, john! I know this will be a LOT of work, but for your project with Ripple, I'd like to see which MK players are the ones earning the most money in tourneys. Your project shows that MK is overused and that MK is winning the most prize money, but it doesn't show if the majority of the prize money is being won by the same traveling MK mainers or by a bunch of random players. If it's also possible, do the same with Snake and Diddy to have something to compare MK's data to. This would definitely help your case! Something no one can argue about is the number of players actually winning tournaments with MK, and so far in any project, we haven't had names of the players who are winning money and we've instead had pools of "overall MK/Snake/Diddy/Falco/blablabla use in tourney". Anonymous bunches of statistics can only say so much about the situation, I hope you understand.
Conviction
Human Nature
That last paragraph would be a cool addition I have been wondering the same thing.
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