Official BBR Tier List v5

[stingers]

I think Chibo was Rob@Stingers.

oh god...IT'S HOPELESS!
99-1 MK confirmed

 

[DMG]

there've been a few strange disagreements

mk/ddd had a dispute in that we called it a hard counter while they only called it a soft counter--both are relative. MK beats us worse than any other char, while they beat others far worse than they beat DDD.

but to be completely frank, i think people will complain no matter what. some of it will certainly be justified, but i think a great deal of it will be complaining for the sake of complaining. for the most part, this thing was done really well and with the most knowledgeable people on each particular character, so stuff it.

You call that giving Dedede 65:35/7:3 for his matchup, and giving the other characters a ratio above that. Or, give the characters the same ratios but have them listed in order of relative "hardness".

 

[da K.I.D.]

seagull, I know myself and speed were consulted to give our opinions on some of sonics matchups. so you should have been spoken to as well, since it wasnt madated or narrowed to only be limited to BR members for the discussions.

Although there was the fact that myself and speed were consulted at Espys behest. If choice felt maybe that he was knowledgable enough on his own to not need any form of assistance with his discussions, that maybe had something to do with you not hearing anything about it.

 

[Seagull Joe]

seagull, I know myself and speed were consulted to give our opinions on some of sonics matchups. so you should have been spoken to as well, since it wasnt madated or narrowed to only be limited to BR members for the discussions.

Although there was the fact that myself and speed were consulted at Espys behest. If choice felt maybe that he was knowledgable enough on his own to not need any form of assistance with his discussions, that maybe had something to do with you not hearing anything about it.

I wasn't consulted. Choice has asked me one matchup opinion, which was Pit. Pit vs Wolf is even.

 

[Tagxy]

lol @ pikachu having more mobility than Falco.

Falco can boost grab you from a fair distance away thats faster your reaction speed.
Up Smash travelling even faster from even further away too.

He also has a better fox trot.

Pikachu has more running speed though.
But who runs?
Scrubs.

At least half of that is true... C- needs improvement.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

We didn't go over a lot of Pokémon Trainer's matchups, but I was glad to hear that most of the other characters were pretty lenient with their spread for those that we talked about.

I just hope all the low tiers aren't, like, "+2, MY CHARACTER'S FAVOR." I only really went over mid tier and above.

 

[infiniteV115]

Random question, hopefully it can be answered. I'm a scrub, so be gentle

How are secondaries taken into consideration when making tier lists?

eg if a lot of the better DK mains decided to go MK (as much as possible) against DDDs, surely seeing many top-placing DKs would make people think "maybe DK deserves to move up", when really DK is being overestimated because MK>everything.

kthnxbai

edit: of course not only against DDDs, and not only for DK. Using secondaries for your character's bad matchups is the idea here.

 

[DMG]

I don't like considering secondaries into the equation because time and time again, it's shown that basically it boils down into MK always being the secondary when deciding who's best to cover a matchup, and any character instantly improved with MK behind them.


What is the point of making an evaluation of individual character viability when you're always looking at them from the perspective of "well MK will be there to take care of the hard matchups?". It would basically be something like "Well guys, is DK + MK better than Pit + MK?". And in the end, you have to look at the characters individually since you're not gonna learn anything about what character is better if you're looking at MK the whole time.


You can try to assess the worth of a character based on how "likely" it is that they will need to CP for bad matchups (How many bad matchups does he have? How bad are they? Are the characters in question popular in tourmaments?). You can try to factor that in when deciding how good a character is, but you don't specifically go "Well Fox looks great with a secondary" or "DK is phenomenal with MK behind him" because you can apply that to any character in the game and the only thing that would be consistently different would be the main character in question, not the secondary.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Random question, hopefully it can be answered. I'm a scrub, so be gentle

How are secondaries taken into consideration when making tier lists?

eg if a lot of the better DK mains decided to go MK (as much as possible) against DDDs, surely seeing many top-placing DKs would make people think "maybe DK deserves to move up", when really DK is being overestimated because MK>everything.

kthnxbai

edit: of course not only against DDDs, and not only for DK. Using secondaries for your character's bad matchups is the idea here.

They try to use their best judgment. If DK is more than capable of beating everyone but Dedede (in this example, anyway; purely hypothetical), then he would probably still be considered a rather good character, especially when Meta Knight does such a nice job of clearing out Dedede.

Sometimes, the bad matchups make a lot of difference; other times, they don't. Remember, it's suppose to reflect the current metagame. If Pokémon Trainer does a number on DK, but no one uses him, then it probably won't affect either character's placing very much.

That said, if you're pretty much forced to switch characters on a counterpick, that doesn't say a lot of good things about your viability.

 

[Yamitsuki]

Sometimes, the bad matchups make a lot of difference; other times, they don't. Remember, it's suppose to reflect the current metagame.

I assume part of the reason falco is still considered in his current spot is because no one plays pikachu/ICS.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Or because Falco is ****ing awesome.

That, too, though, I guess.

 

[Nitrix]

It's far more difficult to deal with than anything Pit has, and most characters, for that matter.

No, you can't; not even close. The reflector portion is out for almost the entirety of the animation. Between horizontal movement via shorthopping, his stupid spotdodge, and lasers if you try to wait it out/fullhop before using them, arrows will rarely hit a grounded Falco.

Falco's vertical aerial speed makes it difficult to use Pit's advantage of being able to curve arrows effectively, whereas Pit's relatively slow vertical aerial mobility allows Falco's fast laser to be more of an advantage in the match-up.

Pit's arrows aren't going to be used in reliable combos. Falco can use them for EVERYTHING, and very effectively.

Pit can't do **** when Falco comes from roughly a 45-degree angle. Pit's B-Air is only reliable when Falco stays in place, in order to aim it well. N-Air also gives Pit much trouble when he is above Falco.

If you try and do anything up close, he doesn't have to space--He just jabs you and does whatever he wants. I think you underestimate how good Falco is up close.

Falco doesn't care about the situation being reset. That puts him in a better position overall. :/

The Pit-Falco matchup isn't the type of matchup where one character dominates the other. It is more like a constant game of rock-paper-scissors because they both have answers to options, but those answers can still be exploited by yet another action.

Arrows do work against Falco. Even if you shoot straight arrows that are slightly bent they will not return and hit Pit. At the very least Falco will be stuck reflecting before he jumps or makes another move. One useful strategy for Pit is to SH arrow, since its easier for him to hit Falco with curved arrows in the air than it is for Falco to jump and lazer Pit. If Falco is simply lazering like an idiot Pit can mirror shield, and if Falco is being sneaky and going to mix in a phantasm Pit can Angel Ring. Angel Ring can also be used to reflect, approach and damage a Falco that lazers too close.

Also, arrows can be used to force Falco into poor positions offstage. If Pit predicts a phantasm then Falco is going to be forced into a poor position. Plus Angel Ring inturrupts it and will force Falco to up-b if he hits it.

The main reason why Falco's lazers aren't completely neutered is because Pit's reflectors don't come out fast enough, which can be pretty annoying. The long range game of this matchup is alot like rock paper scissors.

Close range you are partially correct. Falco's jab is crazy. But Pit does have really fast tilts (Utilt is frame 2, D-Tilt is frame 4 or something) and his jab and d-tilt outrange all of Falco's quick options. The key strategy for Pit is to just stay outside of jab range and land his longer range moves. However, since Falco has such crazy jabs and grabs he probably has a slight edge in the close range game. Pit has to work alot harder to keep up, but he does have the tools.

 

[Coney]

You call that giving Dedede 65:35/7:3 for his matchup, and giving the other characters a ratio above that. Or, give the characters the same ratios but have them listed in order of relative "hardness".

i mean, i agree. tbh i don't know what exactly they plan on doing, as neither side would budge (mk is harder than our other bad matchups like olimar, falco and diddy) and the MKs were pretty adamant as well i think

no clue what's gonna happen but look for stuff like that to be a problem

 

[Orion*]

Snake 45:55 - 50:50 LOL
Diddy Kong 50:50 LOL
Falco 50:50 LOL
Wario 45:55 LOL
King Dedede 50:50 LOL

Just from mus I know I can tell you're wrong T_T
It's not even worth arguing though because you want to believe it lol

about the pit falco matchuup

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ag_tnzTzFLw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjEjx8RDgxQ&feature=related

I believe most of what lenus is saying is true reflex. pit does have a lot of things on falco, including a slight camping advantage and the ability to royally screw him over offstage. falco cqc game is too much at time tho and his pressure game is really good, it looks like a solid even matchup.

on a side note, if you watch the first game, I feel this is how people should fight pikachu.

The first game was so bad, didnt watch the 2nd
Falco outcamps/zones pit

 

[etecoon]

I could see pit vs snake being 50:50

then again I think pit vs MK 30:70 is a pretty optimistic view so idk, I'm strange

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

i predict some outrage on the MU chart, if only from the usual reps of characters (sfp for zss, chuee for lucas, every Goddamn yoshi ever for yoshi, etc) that post here

most of my numbers were good though, the rest of you fellas are on your own

Umm most of the bbr are tools so who cares lol :D

Also my mu numbers are way more conservative than most zss mains so stfu ;D

Mk 4-6
Diddy 5-5
Snake 4-6
Falco 4-6
Marth 5-5
Ics 6-4
Wario 5-5
Pikachu 4-6
Olimar 5-5
Dedede 6-4
Gaw 6-4
Lucario 5-5
TL 6-4
Kirby 7-3
Pit 5-5
Fox 4-6
ROB 7-3

I dunno, I stop caring here.

 

[Lenus Altair]

Just from mus I know I can tell you're wrong T_T
It's not even worth arguing though because you want to believe it lol

'cept not wrong really. What's your background on Pit?

The first game was so bad, didnt watch the 2nd
Falco outcamps/zones pit

Here I'll add to variety.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUccbf20gmA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_10ei_WAzb0

Also hey Coney, since I know you watch this thread I'm curious, what do you think the Pit V. DDD match up is? You've played Earth, how often do you deal with Pits?

 

[Z'zgashi]

I'm gonna add yoshi to that

Lol yoshi gets the **** from half of mid tier.

The only thing I could possibly see complaints on is the fact that S and A tier don't do the same.

 

[Shaya]

I will say this now,

BBR MU project is something we're proud of.
We've put the work in.

 

[stingers]

=]

just...dont be surprised when people ***** anyway. lol

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Don't see what's wrong with Pit vs DDD being even.

 

[Shaya]

=]

just...dont be surprised when people ***** anyway. lol

This is natural.
When we ban diddy kong, people are going to *****.

When I ask someone "how was your day, want some chocolate?"
they're going to complain that i'm trying to get you fat.

 

[Juushichi]

Falco vs Zero Suit only being 60:40 in Falco's favor? SFP, you crazy man.
@ Shaya, Accelerator da bess.

 

[PikaPika!]

i have a set with pikapika from a long time ago--i was winning, and he thundered me, and i died at like, 90%. these things happen.

This happens to 90% of the people I play.

 

[Deleted member]

This happens to 90% of the people I play.

you're actually just that good.

no really. travel a little.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'm gonna get you next time.

 

[Coney]

This happens to 90% of the people I play.

yeah, exactly. going into a match with pika and saying "LOL W/E I'LL FIGURE IT OUT AS I GO ALONG" doesn't work, good pikachus are rare and they have a couple of crazy ways to end your stock early...another example is QAC. even good players will be shocked by a QAC nair if they've never seen a pika before.

Also hey Coney, since I know you watch this thread I'm curious, what do you think the Pit V. DDD match up is? You've played Earth, how often do you deal with Pits?

Don't see what's wrong with Pit vs DDD being even.

i guess it's even, though i think he might have a slight advantage? i dunno. all the pits seem to be set on them winning the MU. i haven't played enough. if you watch my set with Earth i spent most of the time thinking "wtf is he doing" and missing roll punishes and getting hit by bair over and over...i haven't played that MU nearly enough. i guess it's even, but if the pit is as gay as possible (flying under the stage, shooting arrows, and planking constantly) i bet it's bad for us.

 

[Chuee]

Falco vs Zero Suit only being 60:40 in Falco's favor? SFP, you crazy man.
@ Shaya, Accelerator da bess.

I don't see anything being wrong with that.
DEHF and NR both think its 6-4

 

[Orion*]

I could see pit vs snake being 50:50

Don't see what's wrong with Pit vs DDD being even.

If you assumed planking was allowed, then I would agree. But once pit is actually forced to fight either one of these characters he's so bad, the risk reward ratio for hit to hit is not even close to even. He can just attempt to rack up damage without going over the lgl before they get to him.

On top of that snake/ddd have a lot of weight on pit, the only thing he's gonna kill with is like a HARD HARD read bair, or maybe a realllly smart gimp.

'cept not wrong really. What's your background on Pit?

I could honestly ask the same thing to you?

Ive played Koolaid and Nikenick in tournament, lol.

I learned the mu playing haven a lot on wifi (best US pit I've played at least), he kinda doesnt play anymore I think though. It's actually a shame he never went to tournaments

 

[da K.I.D.]

you're actually just that good.

no really. travel a little.

Im bringing him to pound with me, so we'll see what hes made of.

but lol @ this mountain of 'who the hell is this pikachu that i lost to' salt.

 

[Lenus Altair]

If you assumed planking was allowed, then I would agree. But once pit is actually forced to fight either one of these characters he's so bad, the risk reward ratio for hit to hit is not even close to even. He can just attempt to rack up damage without going over the lgl before they get to him.

Planking is allowed so long as you do go to time. That's the thing. Pit also camps DDD. HARD. Pit Juggles him well, and he is far from the hardest character to gimp. Though it is not as big of a factor he can chaingrab DDD back. He has plenty of Damage racking options.

On top of that snake/ddd have a lot of weight on pit, the only thing he's gonna kill with is like a HARD HARD read bair, or maybe a realllly smart gimp.

Yeah they are heavy. And Pit has fun juggling them and harassing them in the air and offstage. ESPECIALLY snake. Koolaid would probably be the one to ask about that match up since he plays Fatal so much. A hard read bair is not needed on either character with how large and tall they are. It becomes a standard punish that's difficult NOT to sweetspot, especially adding their poor aerial mobility into the equation.

I could honestly ask the same thing to you?

Yes you can. My asking you was not an insult, I know you're a big name player. I just didn't know what you were drawing your point of view from.

The only big named players I've played are Pit mains in Dittos, Admiral and R@vyn. Most of my experience comes from no name tourney players, not the best of the best. I plan on starting to devote my time to tourneys and competitive brawl after a graduate and settle back in NoVa, a much more active and accessible region then Savannah Ga .

Still Orion, it's quite apparent that I'm not alone in my opinions.

 

[-Mars-]

Sheik MU's imo

MK 35-65
Snake 45-55
Diddy Kong 45-55
Marth- 40-60
Falco- 45-55
Wario 45-55
Ice Climbers 30-70
Pikachu 40-60
DDD 45-55
Lucario 35-65
G&W 50-50
ZSS 50-50
Olimar 40-60
ROB 40-60
Kirby 40-60
Pit 50-50
Yoshi 50-50
Sonic 50-50
Ike 50-50
Wolf 65-35
Fox 75-25
DK 45-55
Toon Link 50-50
Link 65-35
Luigi 40-60
Mario 60-40
Peach 40-60
Ness 55-45
Lucas 60-40
Yoshi 50-50
Ganon 95-5
Bowser 60-40
Captain Falcon 65-35
Zelda 60-40
Pokemon Trainer 55-45
Jigglypuff 40-60
Samus 60-40

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Falco vs Zero Suit only being 60:40 in Falco's favor? SFP, you crazy man.
@ Shaya, Accelerator da bess.

Uh, what do you actually know about the match-up? lol

ZSS gets by his laser and side-b wall just fine, her biggest problem is that she has no real way out of his jab up close and his reflector owns her mid-range game. Dtilt is really good in the match-up and she juggles him really well (as usual, I guess) and pretty much ***** him off-stage.

@Mars, Sheik beats ZSS, it isn't even.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Sheik MU's imo
Wolf 65-35

No, just no....

 

[Luminoth64]

No, just no....

Agreed. XD Sheik's ftilt is bs, but it's pretty easy to avoid imo.

 

[Kole]

Lucas MUs IMO

MK - 35:65
Snake - 25:75
Diddy Kong - 40:60
Falco - 40:60
Wario - 40:60
Marth - 30:70
ICs - 50:50
Olimar - 45:55
Pikachu 45:55
Dedede - 35:65
GaW - 40:60
Lucario - 45:55
ZSS - 50:50
TL - 45:55
Kirby - 55:45
Fox - 55:45
ROB - 40:60
Pit - 45:55
Peach - 40:60
DK - 35:65
Luigi - 60:40
Wolf - 45:55
Sonic - 50:50
Ike - 55:45
Sheik - 45:55
Ness - 50:50
PT - 50:50
Lucas - 100:0
Yoshi - 45:55
Mario - 60:40
Bowser - 60:40
CF - 60:40
Samus - 65:35
Jigglypuff - 55:45
Link - 60:40
Zelda - 65:35
Ganon - 65:35

 

[-Mars-]

@Mars, Sheik beats ZSS, it isn't even.

Maybe.....Sheiks really easy to juggle. Especially for someone like ZSS

No, just no....

That MU is pretty easy.

 

[Luminoth64]

Maybe.....Sheiks really easy to juggle. Especially for someone like ZSS



That MU is pretty easy.

Have you ever played a Wolf that's good and actually knows the MU?

 

[-Mars-]

Yes I have.

 

[Pikabunz]

95-5?

Come on, Ganon isn't that bad.