Official BBR Tier List v5

[Hylian]

I don't understand how IC's could hard counter Sonic >_>. Explain? The match-up seems fairly even to me with IC's having a slight advantage. I would say I'm a pretty credible source considering how much experience I have against Espy lol.

I also think ESAM overrates pika's match-up. He drilled me into the ground saying Pika vs Ic's is even and eventually I gave in because he beat me in a MM at MLG Dallas and I wasn't going to convince him otherwise lol. I'll just have to beat him at pound hopefully.

 

[DMG]

That matchup does look pretty close in practice. I know this example is old, but Anther vs Lain in most of their sets for example Anther had no problem camping the **** out of Lain.

Pika doesn't win that matchup, but I wouldn't be too surprised if it was only 55:45 IC's favor

 

[da K.I.D.]

Pikachu's MU numbers are so twisted up. It's dumb.

The only person I can see *****ing about Sonic's numbers when his are released is KID, but he also thinks ICs is a hard counter, so *shrugs*.

1. Knowing how you are about our matchups, im going to disagree sure, but Im past complaining about it. If I disagree im just going to go out and prove myself right or wrong, like I plan to with my Sonic > GW/ROB theories.

2. Pikachu matchup numbers is why things like that shouldnt just be left up to one person for whatever character.

3. seems to me that the ease of execution ratio between, 'sonic seperating the ICs and killing nana' and 'ICs pivot grabbing any of sonics approaches, is stupidly far in the ICs favor. but hey, dont mind me.

4. Of course nobodys going to complain about anything because the word of espy in the sonic boards is the word of the almighty.

@ pikachu stuff.
I wish there were more pika players. wait, scratch that. I wish there were more GOOD pikachu players. Because then there would be more than 6 people who know how to play the matchup right.

 

[Hylian]

Sonic can bait pivot grab easier than like any other character considering he can cancel his spin dash. If he stays mid range and runs around a lot IC's have a hard time landing grabs or hits. If he just spin charges at you from across the stage then yeah that's stupid but at mid range you can't humanly react fast enough to pivot grab it when they can just cancel it. Blizzard helps a lot with that but sonic is so fast unless you utilt or uair before he reaches you he can SH over and bair it which is really annoying because if he separates nana he just keeps bairing her :/.

 

[Espy Rose]

Or maybe, KID, it's because I'm actually REASONABLE.

 

[Nike.]

Espy, is Kyro really the only one there right now?

 

[Espy Rose]

This is the tier list thread, Nike.
But yeah.

 

[Exceladon City]

Or maybe, KID, it's because I'm actually REASONABLE.

Co-signing.

inb4KIDmakesameatridestatement

 

[da K.I.D.]

Or maybe, KID, it's because I'm actually REASONABLE.

thats pretty rich coming from mr. I need to second wolf because I cant beat lucario.

 

[Nike.]

How does that have to do with Espy's opinions of Sonic's MU's? lol

 

[Spelt]

...Am I the only one wondering what a fire of AIDS looks like?

 

[Espy Rose]

It doesn't. KID just likes to say it to try and invalidate my MU knowledge.

@Spelt: I am too, don't worry.

 

[Steam]

why would you second wolf for lucario? >.>

just use D3 lol

edit: also it makes me sad that because of one player, and possibly one matchup (MK-Pika), The entire matchup chart will be laughed at like ruleset 3.0 and basically all the time spent on it will go to waste :/

 

[Espy Rose]

Why are you trying to divert the topic?

But to answer your question: Because I can.

 

[Browny]

You could choose to use ganondorf too, which makes about as much sense

 

[da K.I.D.]

Im not trying to invalidate you. stop trying to criminalise me...

im just saying that the guy saying lucario is unwinnable shouldnt call me unreasonable.

and like I said in the sonic boards, I just hope the matchup chart comes with a legend to explain what the hell the numbers are supposed to mean, because they basically created a whole new system from scratch for this project, and everybody might not be on the same page. as to what it means.

 

[Spelt]

I'm actually optimistic about this project. Especially since the BBR seems to be putting some effort into it ... except maybe coney.

 

[Coney]

also @ coney and kid, its not rocket science to figure out things like that. I meant more things that youd only understand if you played a pika consistently.

you don't learn a matchup in a match, in a set, maybe not even in an entire tournament. it takes time and no matter how much you look at the numbers and data and theory, when you fight a good pikachu for the first time, what i mentioned is what you're going to fall into. i have a set with pikapika from a long time ago--i was winning, and he thundered me, and i died at like, 90%. these things happen.

there are plenty of people that can look at the game from a "this SHOULDN'T happen" perspective, but those people are usually...well, bad at the game.

why would you second wolf for lucario? >.>

just use D3 lol

why do people say this

same thing that i said about wolf earlier: if you use a pocket ddd on a top player, they will kill you and your family

I'm actually optimistic about this project. Especially since the BBR seems to be putting some effort into it ... except maybe coney.

well ever since you said ness' pivot grab is better than ddd's, yoshi's and olimar's it got everyone wondering, and now the BBR has launched an extensive investigation into the matter. they're burning the midnight oil trying to find out what you already knew!

 

[Exceladon City]

Im not trying to invalidate you. stop trying to criminalise me...

im just saying that the guy saying lucario is unwinnable shouldnt call me unreasonable.

and like I said in the sonic boards, I just hope the matchup chart comes with a legend to explain what the hell the numbers are supposed to mean, because they basically created a whole new system from scratch for this project, and everybody might not be on the same page. as to what it means.

I don't think he's saying Lucario vs Sonic is unwinnable, he saying it's goddamned difficult to win consistently.

 

[Spelt]

well ever since you said ness' pivot grab is better than ddd's, yoshi's and olimar's it got everyone wondering, and now the BBR has launched an extensive investigation into the matter. they're burning the midnight oil trying to find out what you already knew!

It's not like it's a surprise.
I've said a lot of dumber things.

 

[BSP]

We should talk about Pit or Peach. They don't get any discussion.

They'll probably just stay where they are right now, or move down because others get moved above them.

 

[stingers]

pit and peach haven't done anything, at all, since the last update >.> so that is to be expected

 

[Steam]

why do people say this

same thing that i said about wolf earlier: if you use a pocket ddd on a top player, they will kill you and your family

Because a pocket wolf in an even matchup will somehow do better?

I'm just saying, there are only 2 real counters to lucario. Snake and D3 (and arguably MK and possibly fox). D3 is a lot more straightforward than snake and a lot less common. Thus he's probably the best character you can choose to pick up for the lucario matchup

 

[Chuee]

I think Pits sorta underrated but he hasn't done anything in tourney recently.
and the sad part is he really hasn't done anything recently.
EDIT: I wouldn't really call Espy's wolf a "pocket" wolf.

 

[Exceladon City]

Because a pocket wolf in an even matchup will somehow do better?

I'm just saying, there are only 2 real counters to lucario. Snake and D3 (and arguably MK and possibly fox). D3 is a lot more straightforward than snake and a lot less common. Thus he's probably the best character you can choose to pick up for the lucario matchup

Espy actually has a legit Wolf.

 

[Tesh]

IF he wanted to hard counter people for wins, he probably wouldn't main Sonic in the first place.

 

[Browny]

Official Espy Discussion v5

 

[Spelt]

Next topic: Which sonic taunt is Espy's favorite taunt?

 

[Chuee]

down taunt.

 

[Lokinario]

You reminded of a thread for the lulz I was thinking of creating, a Taunt Tier, lol (Show me ya mvoes SS Tier).

 

[Ussi]

Two reasons a person would switch to an even MU than an advantage MU

This is speaking player wise, mental mind games so to speak... But most people know how to deal with their harder/bad MUs while an even MU with a character mid tier or lower... most people have less discipline in fighting... that and maining multiple characters and just picking the one that does better.

Now speaking realistically...

I would say switching from (hard) disadvantage to even is a fair call on character switching. Of course MU knowledge and experience also comes into play. Switching characters shouldn't really ever be calculated reasonable but more on intuition and experience.



also Espy's fav taunt is side taunt

 

[Stealth Raptor]

wow all this pikachu talk i didnt know about.

i also want to say about pikachu getting the grab, his mobility is far better then falco and ddd, and can harry an opponent better into getting them into the grab, or combo into it like from utilt, etc.

 

[Espy Rose]

IF he wanted to hard counter people for wins, he probably wouldn't main Sonic in the first place.

This.
Now Steam, stop questioning my justification for picking Wolf.

I don't prioritize "play to win". I prefer to "play to have fun" before anything else.

 

[Savon]

People play this game for fun? It sure does not seem like it.

 

[Trent]

The only people truly playing to win obviously should pick or go home.

 

[Tesh]

The only people truly playing to win obviously should pick or go home.

But MK can't dthrow to upmsash for kills. or Dthrow to Bears.

 

[Shaya]

lol @ pikachu having more mobility than Falco.

Falco can boost grab you from a fair distance away thats faster your reaction speed.
Up Smash travelling even faster from even further away too.

He also has a better fox trot.

Pikachu has more running speed though.
But who runs?
Scrubs.

Also with the MU chart people will:
1. Hate MK's mus (natural)
2. Hate Pikachu's MUs (like 3rd best character in the game, DAWG)
3. Hate Pit's MUs (5th best character in the game, here we GO!)

 

[Kinzer]

I hope you don't disclose people who participated in the project.

It'll look more like a hit-list to some people.

 

[Shaya]

I hope you don't disclose people who participated in the project.

It'll look more like a hit-list to some people.

Fortunately, all people who took part are to be listed.
All external (i.e. non-BBR) helpers will also be credited

Oh, also people may get meh at Luigi's match ups.
The BBR could not find anyone to take the mantle in the man's honour, so his match ups are sketchy (i.e. 'one way decided' by their opposition). We'll be noting that though.

So when Pit and Pikachu both have 95:5 match ups against Luigi (thats below average match up ratings for those two characters though, Luigi got lucky) you can blame the fact Luigi mains hibernate under 50 layers of earth, fire and snow or don't go to tournaments.

 

[Browny]

LET ME AT 'EM, LEMME AT 'em!