Official BBR Tier List v5

[Orion*]

lol @ pikachu having more mobility than Falco.

Falco can boost grab you from a fair distance away thats faster your reaction speed.
Up Smash travelling even faster from even further away too.

He also has a better fox trot.

Pikachu has more running speed though.
But who runs?
Scrubs.

Also with the MU chart people will:
1. Hate MK's mus (natural)
2. Hate Pikachu's MUs (like 3rd best character in the game, DAWG)
3. Hate Pit's MUs (5th best character in the game, here we GO!)

I'm gonna add yoshi to that

 

[Lenus Altair]

Also with the MU chart people will:
1. Hate MK's mus (natural)
2. Hate Pikachu's MUs (like 3rd best character in the game, DAWG)
3. Hate Pit's MUs (5th best character in the game, here we GO!)

I think Pit has decent match ups but nothing crazy.

Keeping in mind the first number is for Pit, I think they should look something like...

Meta Knight 30:70 - 35-65
Snake 45:55 - 50:50
Diddy Kong 50:50
Falco 50:50
Wario 45:55
Marth 40:60
Ice Climbers 50:50
Olimar 35:65
Pikachu 50:50
King Dedede 50:50
Mr. Game & Watch 40:60 - 45:55
Lucario 50:50
Zero Suit Samus 55:45
Toon Link 45:50 - 50:50
Kirby 45:55 - 50:50
Fox 50:50
R.O.B. 50:50
Pit 50:50
Peach 50:50
Donkey Kong 60:40
Luigi 55:45
Wolf 50:50
Zelda/Sheik 50:50
Sonic 50:50
Ike 60:40
Sheik 50:50
Ness 55:45
Pokémon Trainer 60:40 - 55:45
Yoshi 50:50
Lucas 55:45
Mario 50:50
Bowser 60:40
Captain Falcon 65:35 - 60:40
Samus 60:40
Jigglypuff 65:35 - 60:40
Link 60:40
Zelda 55:45
Ganondorf 75:25

A couple of those (most notably Id say the Marth and Game & Watch matchups) are more radical opinions compared to most Pit Mains.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Pit goes even with Falco? >_>

 

[Lenus Altair]

Pit goes even with Falco? >_>

With planking .

 

[stingers]

but every tourney worth a damn has an LGL =[

 

[Lenus Altair]

but every tourney worth a damn has an LGL =[

Which only applies if the game goes to time. You can still use planking and a characters edge game in general as a tactic so long as you finish the match before hand.

edit ----------------

Also tourneys would be worth more if they just banned Meta knight so there wouldn't be a need for lgl. The surgical banning on him that affect other characters tactics I feel are unjustified and uncompetitive.

 

[Tesh]

Which only applies if the game goes to time. You can still use planking and a characters edge game in general as a tactic so long as you finish the match before hand.

Even though MK is the only one that should have an LGL, this is pretty important. If you look at Masashi plank, it never seems to go to time. He planks to fight from the best position against Snake/ICs until he makes and opening with spaces aerials and arrows. Once he does, he gets off the ledge and finishes off the stock.

 

[stingers]

Which only applies if the game goes to time. You can still use planking and a characters edge game in general as a tactic so long as you finish the match before hand.

that is a double standard lol. if you're intending to avoid confrontation with falco by planking the ledge, he has no reason to approach the ledge if he will win through LGL at time.

 

[Lenus Altair]

that is a double standard lol. if you're intending to avoid confrontation with falco by planking the ledge, he has no reason to approach the ledge if he will win through LGL at time.

You're right that Falco would be best to back off. You're wrong to say it's a double standard. If Falco is gaining the upper hand, Pit can safetly retreat to the ledge to reset the position, even get in a hit if Falco is nearby when he starts. Once Falco does back off things start over again with approaches and camping games, with which they are fairly even against each other in that regard. Even the ability to just reset things to neutral consistently is a useful tool.

 

[Nitrix]

Pit does go even with Falco.

Pit beats Falco in the air and offstage, has two reflectors to help deal with lazers (one of which inturrupts phantasm), and goes pretty even in close range (when past 30%). The key is to just camp hard at the start and then run into the fray. Pit also kills earlier than Falco.

However Falco is still a solid character. His lazers still give him an edge, along with the chaingrab. To most Pit's it is around even.

I think Pit has decent match ups but nothing crazy.

A couple of those (most notably Id say the Marth and Game & Watch matchups) are more radical opinions compared to most Pit Mains.

Don't forget Olimar

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Pit does go even with Falco.

Pit beats Falco in the air and offstage, has two reflectors to help deal with lazers (one of which inturrupts phantasm), and goes pretty even in close range (when past 30%). The key is to just camp hard at the start and then run into the fray. Pit also kills earlier than Falco.

However Falco is still a solid character. His lazers still give him an edge, along with the chaingrab. To most Pit's it is around even.

Don't forget Olimar

What does Pit have that works even remotely well against Falco when he's inside? Jab -> grab stuffs EVERYTHING. Arrow game doesn't work on-stage due to Falco's reflector, and his lasers work about as well as Pit's arrows when edgeguarding/in the air, except Falco's lasers combo into stuff.

Falco's great vertical speed due to fast fall speed and great jumps means that Falco's B-Air beats Pit in the air, because Pit's B-Air and F-Air don't cover much area, and you have to make a hard read to react with your own D-Air beforehand.

I find it hard to believe that Pit goes even when he has no way to force an approach (because of Mirror Shield, neither does Falco, but Falco's lasers set up for stuff, whereas Pit's arrows generally don't), and I can't think of how Pit plans on fighting Falco up close.

 

[Juushichi]

I'd say Pit vs Falco is like 6:4 in Falco's favor, IMO.

 

[Steam]

this matchup chart is going to be so hilarious...

lol

 

[Lenus Altair]

What does Pit have that works even remotely well against Falco when he's inside? Jab -> grab stuffs EVERYTHING.

This is a great part why he beats up close, but his jab can still be spaced and predicted like everything else.

Arrow game doesn't work on-stage due to Falco's reflector,

Yeah it does. You can hit him between him throwing it out AND you can angle the arrow arround his reflector when its fully out to hit his body from a full hop when his on the ground. You can't be 100% consistant sure, but a falco who relies and his reflector against arrows will still take hits while the pit will angle them so he will not.

and his lasers work about as well as Pit's arrows when edgeguarding/in the air,

Yeah it about evens out. Pit can use his arrows aiming where falco can't (like up or when they're below the stage) bu falco can spam it better.

except Falco's lasers combo into stuff.

Pits arrows can, but it far more limited yes.

Falco's great vertical speed due to fast fall speed and great jumps means that Falco's B-Air beats Pit in the air, because Pit's B-Air and F-Air don't cover much area, and you have to make a hard read to react with your own D-Air beforehand.

Not really. I mean sure Bair is great and all with its hit on frame 4, but from my experience playing against him its only ideal if he is popping up from the ground when pit is already in the air, other wise Pits disjoints win.

I find it hard to believe that Pit goes even when he has no way to force an approach (because of Mirror Shield, neither does Falco, but Falco's lasers set up for stuff, whereas Pit's arrows generally don't), and I can't think of how Pit plans on fighting Falco up close.

Pit can force an approach more then Falco can given the right stage and the fact that Falcos reflector is not a guarantee against Arrows. Generally speaking against a Falco I mess with his spacing up close with Angelic Steps. That and a badly spaced/predicted move on his part still leaves us with U-tilt as an option as fast as his jab and faster then everything else. You have to bait him (which is a roundabout way of saying he has the advantage.) He wins on the ground. Pit Juggles Falco harder then the reverse and can make up for the damage he takes on the ground there. It is important to remember that Falco is susceptible to Pits Gimp Game and will always have more difficulty getting back on then Pit.

Also Pit can reset the game to a distance pretty much whenever when he planks as mentioned in prior posts, which starts the camping game again. That means they either are trading hits with projectiles or one is reflecting the other (which if that's the case Falco will lose the damage war that way do to his not so perfect reflector)

Sounds pretty even to me.

edit---------------------

Btw I only skimmed the topic, but stages and counterpicks hurt Falco a lot more then Pit in this matchup.

 

[DMG]

Pit might as well go even with the entire cast at this rate

Marth? Psh just Mirror Shield his Fairs and use Arrows from the ledge.

MK? If you buffer a stutter step Fsmash inbetween Ftilt hits at max range and he doesn't hit again or SDI your attack, it works.

Snake? Roll behind him and grab.

 

[Vinnie]

Meta Knight 40:60
Snake 40:60
Diddy Kong 40:60
Falco 40:60
Wario 45:55
Marth 35:65
Ice Climbers 35:65
Olimar 35:65 ~ 40:60
Pikachu 50:50
King Dedede 50:50
Mr. Game & Watch /
Lucario 50:50
Zero Suit Samus 50:50
Toon Link 55:45
Kirby 60:40
Fox 45:55
R.O.B. 55:45
Pit 55:45
Peach 55:45
Donkey Kong 55:45
Luigi 55:45
Wolf 55:45
Zelda/Sheik 55:45
Sonic 45:55
Ike 55:45
Sheik 45:55
Ness 55:45
Pokémon Trainer 60:40
Yoshi... IDFK, I'll just say 55:45 though.
Lucas 60:40
Mario 60:40
Bowser 55:45
Captain Falcon 65:35
Samus 65:35
Jigglypuff 75:25
Link 65:35
Zelda 65:35
Ganondorf 75:25

 

[Steam]

Pit might as well go even with the entire cast at this rate

Marth? Psh just Mirror Shield his Fairs and use Arrows from the ledge.

MK? If you buffer a stutter step Fsmash inbetween Ftilt hits at max range and he doesn't hit again or SDI your attack, it works.

Snake? Roll behind him and grab.

ban pit for sure

 

[TheReflexWonder]

This is a great part why he beats up close, but his jab can still be spaced and predicted like everything else.



Yeah it does. You can hit him in the game between him throwing it out AND you can angle the arrow arround his reflector when its fully out to hit his body from a full hop when his on the ground. You can't be 100% consistant sure, but a falco who relies and his reflector against arrows will still take hits while the pit will angle them so he will not.



Yeah it about evens out. Pit can use his arrows aiming where falco can't (like up or when they're below the stage) bu falco can spam it better.



Pits arrows can, but it far more limited yes.



Not really. I mean sure Bair is great and all with its hit on frame 4, but from my experience playing against him its only ideal if he is popping up from the ground when pit is already in the air, other wise Pits disjoints win.



Pit can force an approach more then Falco can given the right stage and the fact that Falcos reflector is not a guarantee against Arrows. Generally speaking against a Falco I mess with his spacing up close with Angelic Steps. That and a badly spaced/predicted move on his part still leaves us with U-tilt as an option as fast as his jab and faster then everything else. You have to bait him (which is a roundabout way of saying he has the advantage.) He wins on the ground. Pit Juggles Falco harder then the reverse and can make up for the damage he takes on the ground there. It is important to remember that Falco is susceptible to Pits Gimp Game and will always have more difficulty getting back on then Pit.

Also Pit can reset the game to a distance pretty much whenever when he planks as mentioned in prior posts, which starts the camping game again. That means they either are trading hits with projectiles or one is reflecting the other (which if that's the case Falco will lose the damage war that way do to his not so perfect reflector)

Sounds pretty even to me.

edit---------------------

Btw I only skimmed the topic, but stages and counterpicks hurt Falco a lot more then Pit in this matchup.

It's far more difficult to deal with than anything Pit has, and most characters, for that matter.

No, you can't; not even close. The reflector portion is out for almost the entirety of the animation. Between horizontal movement via shorthopping, his stupid spotdodge, and lasers if you try to wait it out/fullhop before using them, arrows will rarely hit a grounded Falco.

Falco's vertical aerial speed makes it difficult to use Pit's advantage of being able to curve arrows effectively, whereas Pit's relatively slow vertical aerial mobility allows Falco's fast laser to be more of an advantage in the match-up.

Pit's arrows aren't going to be used in reliable combos. Falco can use them for EVERYTHING, and very effectively.

Pit can't do **** when Falco comes from roughly a 45-degree angle. Pit's B-Air is only reliable when Falco stays in place, in order to aim it well. N-Air also gives Pit much trouble when he is above Falco.

If you try and do anything up close, he doesn't have to space--He just jabs you and does whatever he wants. I think you underestimate how good Falco is up close.

Falco doesn't care about the situation being reset. That puts him in a better position overall. :/

 

[Lenus Altair]

Pit might as well go even with the entire cast at this rate

Marth? Psh just Mirror Shield his Fairs and use Arrows from the ledge.

MK? If you buffer a stutter step Fsmash inbetween Ftilt hits at max range and he doesn't hit again or SDI your attack, it works.

Snake? Roll behind him and grab.

Keeping in mind the first number is for Pit, I think they should look something like...

Meta Knight 30:70 - 35-65
Snake 45:55 - 50:50
Marth 40:60

Yeah cuz that's what I'm arguing... hahah. /strawman

 

[Poltergust]

I'm gonna add yoshi to that

What do you mean? Yoshi's numbers are perfectly fine. I tried to be as objective as possible with all of his match-ups.

But yeah, I can definitely see people raging over Pit.

 

[Lenus Altair]

No, you can't; not even close. The reflector portion is out for almost the entirety of the animation. Between horizontal movement via shorthopping, his stupid spotdodge, and lasers if you try to wait it out/fullhop before using them, arrows will rarely hit a grounded Falco.

That was just one example, the point being if pit is a different elevation then falco when he uses his reflector, pit can bend his arrows up or down and around. Hell it might even work in a short hop, I'd have to double check.

In the end though a Falco who sit on the ground using his reflector all day is ******** and I wouldn't expect as much. They both have the tools to simultaneously camp each other and make it difficult camping the other.

Falco's vertical aerial speed makes it difficult to use Pit's advantage of being able to curve arrows effectively, whereas Pit's relatively slow vertical aerial mobility allows Falco's fast laser to be more of an advantage in the match-up.

Debatable really. The way I see it Falco has to fast fall his laser to get a spread that has a good chance of hitting Pit while Pit has his shot which he can manipulate both in trajectory and timing to hit Falco.

Pit's arrows aren't going to be used in reliable combos. Falco can use them for EVERYTHING, and very effectively.

You're right, Pit arrows arn't reliable combos. I just don't like when people speak in absolutes when it isn't absolute. (Ignores second sentence )

Pit can't do **** when Falco comes from roughly a 45-degree angle. Pit's B-Air is only reliable when Falco stays in place, in order to aim it well. N-Air also gives Pit much trouble when he is above Falco.

You're argument seems to amount to If falco is coming from below pit, he has the advantage. You can replace those characters names with pretty much anyone and it'd remain true. Including Pit coming from below Falco.

Pits Uair gives Falco more trouble when Pit is below then vice versa with Falcos nair. Nair is less likely to hit since we have multiple jumps/wingstalling to resist juggling. That applies to every attack falco can do in the air.

If you try and do anything up close, he doesn't have to space--He just jabs you and does whatever he wants. I think you underestimate how good Falco is up close.

I think you don't give enough credit to pits options, as jab is not the end all that you make it sound. No single move is, not even nado. There is no doubt Falco wins up close on the ground however.

Falco doesn't care about the situation being reset. That puts him in a better position overall. :/

I disagree for reasons already stated. I see it as evening it out.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Things I've learned from the tier list discussion thread:

Pikachu beats Mk.
Sonic is high tier because of potential time outs.
Ness has a better grab then D3.
Wolf ALWAYS gets grabbed, while Fox never does.
GaW is low tier.
Snake isn't good.
Diddy is better then Mk.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

What is this MU chart? The BBR pulling MU numbers out of their butt?

I wonder what people think of Sheiks MU's.

I've been helping with Lucario's MU's in the lucario backroom.

I dunno if I can reveal anything we have discussed unless BBR members or Marc give me the ok to reveal it anything.

I trust the Lucario ones, I dunno what the others characters are gonna say for their overall spread though.

 

[Spelt]

All of my optimism for the matchup chart is gone.

 

[Steam]

I've been helping with Lucario's MU's in the lucario backroom.

I dunno if I can reveal anything we have discussed unless BBR members or Marc give me the ok to reveal it anything.

I trust the Lucario ones, I dunno what the others characters are gonna say for their overall spread though.

yeah, helping with the lucario matchup chart, there wasn't anything extremely off or rediculous. that's why its probably best to not leave it up to one person for matchups. the lucario boards voted >.>

 

[DMG]

All of my optimism for the matchup chart is gone.

You had faith in us?

How cute.

 

[Espy Rose]

To be fair, I don't think a single character for the MU Project had a single person for match ups, Steam.

Now what everyone needs to do is stop jumping to conclusions, and actually wait for the chart to come out before passing any kind of judgment on it. We all know there are some people in this thread, or even just this forum in general, that just LOVE to jump on things before they actually evaluate them.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

yeah, helping with the lucario matchup chart, there wasn't anything extremely off or rediculous. that's why its probably best to not leave it up to one person for matchups. the lucario boards voted >.>

This is why I trusted it, we discussed what we disagreed on and worked it out as best as we could.

Also none of the procarios say insane ratios.

Trela's opinions on Lucario's were pretty spot on what the conclusions we are reaching. Still we're working it out, since some need attention still, it's most the fact the other characters don't agree with us at this point.

To be fair, I don't think a single character for the MU Project had a single person for match ups, Steam.

Now what everyone needs to do is stop jumping to conclusions, and actually wait for the chart to come out before passing any kind of judgment on it. We all know there are some people in this thread, or even just this forum in general, that just LOVE to jump on things before they actually evaluate them.

Espy is cool.

Agreeing with this, wait for it to come out before saying it's gonna suck.

 

[Spelt]

well if pit is actually #5 that's a pretty good reason to jump on it imo.

 

[da K.I.D.]

about the pit falco matchuup

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ag_tnzTzFLw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjEjx8RDgxQ&feature=related

I believe most of what lenus is saying is true reflex. pit does have a lot of things on falco, including a slight camping advantage and the ability to royally screw him over offstage. falco cqc game is too much at time tho and his pressure game is really good, it looks like a solid even matchup.

on a side note, if you watch the first game, I feel this is how people should fight pikachu.

 

[Steam]

To be fair, I don't think a single character for the MU Project had a single person for match ups, Steam.

Now what everyone needs to do is stop jumping to conclusions, and actually wait for the chart to come out before passing any kind of judgment on it. We all know there are some people in this thread, or even just this forum in general, that just LOVE to jump on things before they actually evaluate them.

a few pages back Coney iirc said something about ESAM being in charge of pika's MUs :/

 

[da K.I.D.]

there was also the whole, '0 people for luigi' thing.

 

[Steam]

there was also the whole, '0 people for luigi' thing.

This also worries me. Chances are it's going to make luigi's matchup spread look really bad since it's all up to his opponent's boards...

 

[Juushichi]

Why wasn't Boss, BigLou or YoshQ there for Luigi?

Same for Z and PikaPika for Pikachu?

 

[stingers]

To be fair, I don't think a single character for the MU Project had a single person for match ups, Steam.

who did ROB? >.>

 

[Seagull Joe]

The only Wolf rep is Choice. Kain, me, and JJwolf aren't in BBR to help with Wolf's matchups lolol. I think Chibo was Rob@Stingers.

Espy is considered the 2nd person for Wolf matchups @____________@.

 

[theunabletable]

inb4matchup chart has MK beating Fox 60-40 or worse

 

[DMG]

inb4matchup chart has MK beating Fox 60-40 or worse

Inb4 matchup chart has every MK matchup as 50:50 or 55:45.

 

[Steam]

@ seagull- they just asked the character BRs IIRC :/

@DMG- I know MK-Lucario wound up being close... and the MK boards submitted a more even ratio than the luc boards did ._.

 

[Coney]

there've been a few strange disagreements

mk/ddd had a dispute in that we called it a hard counter while they only called it a soft counter--both are relative. MK beats us worse than any other char, while they beat others far worse than they beat DDD.

but to be completely frank, i think people will complain no matter what. some of it will certainly be justified, but i think a great deal of it will be complaining for the sake of complaining. for the most part, this thing was done really well and with the most knowledgeable people on each particular character, so stuff it.