Niko45
Smash Master
I'd say 90-10 is about right
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NO JOHNS MONTHLY | February 4, 2012 | Nanuet NY | Stric, Jman, Nando, Hax, DoH, M2K
- Thread starter LLDL
- Start date
- Status
Mew2King
King of the Mews
how do they guarantee a 0-death off of a grab? (be as specific as possible please, I'd actually like to know and hear this)
Mew2King
King of the Mews
And dude, people only THOUGHT it was hopeless because I 4 stocked Darkrain once lol and then people overrated the MU
SwiftBass
Smash Hero
I am curious to hear about these guaranteed ZTDs.
sheik
on fastfallers: can easily techchase at ranges far enough such that spacies shine cannot punish even if the sheik misses by a few frames. unless falcon is very very perfectly spaced he gets shined. i've also tested techchasing with sheik compared to falcon and the better grab range significantly outdoes the extra speed falcon has. so your techchasing w/ grabs is not only far less risky, but better.
on floaties: ftilt works guaranteed after dthrow and is an absurd combo starter. falcon can dthrow -> nair, but this can be both DI'd and smash DI'd. he can uthrow -> uair, but before 30% this trades with them if they wiggle fast enough; it doesn't hit them clean.
fox
on fastfallers: CHAINGRABS fox/falco (/argument), uthrow usmashes falcon into 70% combo
on floaties: uthrow -> uair 2-3 times for 60% + great positioning. if you're gonna use the argument that it can be SDI'd then i'll counter by saying that dthrow -> nair with falcon is not a true combo because the first hit of the nair can be SDI'd in many situations. (you can also learn to hit with only the 2nd hit as ive seen some foxes do recently)
marth
on fastfallers: no need to explain this to m2k himself
on floaties: uthrow gives great positioning for marth to juggle. fthrow -> fair is a very good combo starter
falcon has nothing guaranteed on fastfallers until high %. he can play the sheik techchasing game, but he is slightly worse at it and runs a much higher risk because he cannot space his grab as well (so he gets shined into a full combo if he whiffs a single grab). the only character he can really safely techchase is himself because his tech is so ****ing bad and he doesn't threaten to do ANYTHING upon get-up (which makes techchasing even easier for sheik -- you basically have a few frames to jab/ftilt/etc even AFTER i get up because all i can do is gentleman which gets cc -> grabbed)
on floaties, he can only trade out of uthrow at low% unless he instant uairs. the only really good out-of-grab option that you guys could possibly be talking about is chaining uairs on floaties past ~40%, but i don't see how this compares to automatic 80%+ combos at 0%. for the most part, comboing floaties with falcon after a uthrow at low% involves a lot of mindgaming, which can't even be compared to fox/sheik/marth's auto stuff
just because we both 0-to-deathed each other every time we touched each other in our WF's set doesn't mean our characters are even close to equally potent. you're failing to realize that your 0 to deaths consisted of dash attack -> dash attack -> dash attack (literally) -> fair, down on the c-stick 7x at the ledge for an edgeguard, techchasing that is so easy it's practically guaranteed (sheik is the best techchaser in the game/falcon has one of the worst techs in the game) etc. everything falcon has to do is more demanding in terms of precision, speed, and thought process. several of the things i did involved me going offstage such that had i been even slightly off in my aerials (i.e. my first 0 to death in game 4) OR had you known when to interrupt with a simple jump -> fair (i.e. end of match 4) i'd have lost my stock.
did i mention that sheikstalling when you have the lead forces falcon to move FLAWLESSLY by the ledge in an attempt to steal the ledge from you? if you wd onstage -> bthrow i die. if you hit me as i'm wavedashing onto the ledge i die. i risk my stock just so that i can take the ****ing ledge from you; that is sick.
there's way more stuff sheik has on falcon but i'm not putting much effort into this post because never in my life have i seen someone concede an argument on smashboards so there's really no point
on fastfallers: can easily techchase at ranges far enough such that spacies shine cannot punish even if the sheik misses by a few frames. unless falcon is very very perfectly spaced he gets shined. i've also tested techchasing with sheik compared to falcon and the better grab range significantly outdoes the extra speed falcon has. so your techchasing w/ grabs is not only far less risky, but better.
on floaties: ftilt works guaranteed after dthrow and is an absurd combo starter. falcon can dthrow -> nair, but this can be both DI'd and smash DI'd. he can uthrow -> uair, but before 30% this trades with them if they wiggle fast enough; it doesn't hit them clean.
fox
on fastfallers: CHAINGRABS fox/falco (/argument), uthrow usmashes falcon into 70% combo
on floaties: uthrow -> uair 2-3 times for 60% + great positioning. if you're gonna use the argument that it can be SDI'd then i'll counter by saying that dthrow -> nair with falcon is not a true combo because the first hit of the nair can be SDI'd in many situations. (you can also learn to hit with only the 2nd hit as ive seen some foxes do recently)
marth
on fastfallers: no need to explain this to m2k himself
on floaties: uthrow gives great positioning for marth to juggle. fthrow -> fair is a very good combo starter
falcon has nothing guaranteed on fastfallers until high %. he can play the sheik techchasing game, but he is slightly worse at it and runs a much higher risk because he cannot space his grab as well (so he gets shined into a full combo if he whiffs a single grab). the only character he can really safely techchase is himself because his tech is so ****ing bad and he doesn't threaten to do ANYTHING upon get-up (which makes techchasing even easier for sheik -- you basically have a few frames to jab/ftilt/etc even AFTER i get up because all i can do is gentleman which gets cc -> grabbed)
on floaties, he can only trade out of uthrow at low% unless he instant uairs. the only really good out-of-grab option that you guys could possibly be talking about is chaining uairs on floaties past ~40%, but i don't see how this compares to automatic 80%+ combos at 0%. for the most part, comboing floaties with falcon after a uthrow at low% involves a lot of mindgaming, which can't even be compared to fox/sheik/marth's auto stuff
lmao sure. historically sheik has always ***** top falcons/been regarded as a terrible matchup for falcon because it is. she outdoes falcon while requiring half as much creativity (at lower levels of play, even less), 20% as much techskill and 10% as much risk. those aren't exaggerationsMew2King said:
just because we both 0-to-deathed each other every time we touched each other in our WF's set doesn't mean our characters are even close to equally potent. you're failing to realize that your 0 to deaths consisted of dash attack -> dash attack -> dash attack (literally) -> fair, down on the c-stick 7x at the ledge for an edgeguard, techchasing that is so easy it's practically guaranteed (sheik is the best techchaser in the game/falcon has one of the worst techs in the game) etc. everything falcon has to do is more demanding in terms of precision, speed, and thought process. several of the things i did involved me going offstage such that had i been even slightly off in my aerials (i.e. my first 0 to death in game 4) OR had you known when to interrupt with a simple jump -> fair (i.e. end of match 4) i'd have lost my stock.
did i mention that sheikstalling when you have the lead forces falcon to move FLAWLESSLY by the ledge in an attempt to steal the ledge from you? if you wd onstage -> bthrow i die. if you hit me as i'm wavedashing onto the ledge i die. i risk my stock just so that i can take the ****ing ledge from you; that is sick.
there's way more stuff sheik has on falcon but i'm not putting much effort into this post because never in my life have i seen someone concede an argument on smashboards so there's really no point
twizzlerj
Smash Journeyman
pretty sure this made a lot of people quit falcon lmao thanks. I will still practice him sinces hes fun.
leffen
Smash Champion
Uh, are you dumb hax?
Sheik is the very same (But WORSE) to tech chase with, since she has less frame advantage after her grab AND she is slower than falcon (Yeah, she has dash attack at higher percents... but you can DI that **** and falcon has uthrow->knee vs all characters which kills anyway so its not a problem)
This is not to mention that M2K NEVER reacts, and always reads you. If we assume this (which you clearly do) then falcon has even more advantage since he has more reward from reading a tech than sheik has AND has combos+CGs vs Sheik.
oh
if you think you need "GODLIKE" reactions to tech chase grab on reaction you're just plain wrong.
Just take any characters info out of here http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=206469 and use some logic.
As long as you have decent running speed, above 0,30 seconds reaction time (yes, even you m2k can do this... its all in your head) you more or less can guarantee a grab or a notech punish every tech chase unless you're a dumb cf main who flails around with knees and stomps to look flashy.
Sheik is the very same (But WORSE) to tech chase with, since she has less frame advantage after her grab AND she is slower than falcon (Yeah, she has dash attack at higher percents... but you can DI that **** and falcon has uthrow->knee vs all characters which kills anyway so its not a problem)
This is not to mention that M2K NEVER reacts, and always reads you. If we assume this (which you clearly do) then falcon has even more advantage since he has more reward from reading a tech than sheik has AND has combos+CGs vs Sheik.
oh
if you think you need "GODLIKE" reactions to tech chase grab on reaction you're just plain wrong.
Just take any characters info out of here http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=206469 and use some logic.
As long as you have decent running speed, above 0,30 seconds reaction time (yes, even you m2k can do this... its all in your head) you more or less can guarantee a grab or a notech punish every tech chase unless you're a dumb cf main who flails around with knees and stomps to look flashy.
Wake
Smash Master
Tope makes that MU look pretty sad...
Niko45
Smash Master
you had me up until marth auto stuff
leffen
Smash Champion
Wow just read Hax's new post
LMFAO you ****ing biased ****. So much of that isn't true/doesn't show both sides to the argument that it isn't true
and if you honestly think the TINY difference between sheiks spacing (mind you, if spacies shine at the same frame she grabs/ a few frames before she still gets shined)
all you falcon mains is ****ing complain and complain LOL
we should stop cluttering this thread - lets just repost Hax's cryfest in general discussion and we'll go from there xD
EDIT: Oh, and, let me just correct a very common thing (this has stemmed from all the ******* being falcon mains).
FALCONS TECH IS NOT BAD. He has the SAME frame data (for both rolls and techs, and his get up attacks are among the best)
His horizontal movement (the frame which you can react to, when he starts to move to either side during roll techs) are the best among high tiers, he travels further than anyone else in top tier (well...sheik has better backwards tech but falcon has better forward...).
He isn't the strongest on wakeup, but he can still just run away (best ingame obviously) and you have a good roll.
Hell, if you don't count jabs that are "cc" able and spotdodges (CF can spotdodge a grab and get away by running every time vs Sheik but he doesnt get a punish) then he can run away from grabs faster than anything Peach, Marth, ICs, Ganondorf, Samus (cept up B which is easily punishable, she has terrible rolls too) Doc, Mario, Luigi, Donkeykong, Link, YL, Mewtwo etc has...
People are just too ****ing biased to see this... jesus christ will you just stop sucking your own ****s falcon mains and realize that the reason you lose to people is because you're worse than them instead of blaming it away at things being "gay" etc... its getting ridiculous
LMFAO you ****ing biased ****. So much of that isn't true/doesn't show both sides to the argument that it isn't true
and if you honestly think the TINY difference between sheiks spacing (mind you, if spacies shine at the same frame she grabs/ a few frames before she still gets shined)
all you falcon mains is ****ing complain and complain LOL
we should stop cluttering this thread - lets just repost Hax's cryfest in general discussion and we'll go from there xD
EDIT: Oh, and, let me just correct a very common thing (this has stemmed from all the ******* being falcon mains).
FALCONS TECH IS NOT BAD. He has the SAME frame data (for both rolls and techs, and his get up attacks are among the best)
His horizontal movement (the frame which you can react to, when he starts to move to either side during roll techs) are the best among high tiers, he travels further than anyone else in top tier (well...sheik has better backwards tech but falcon has better forward...).
He isn't the strongest on wakeup, but he can still just run away (best ingame obviously) and you have a good roll.
Hell, if you don't count jabs that are "cc" able and spotdodges (CF can spotdodge a grab and get away by running every time vs Sheik but he doesnt get a punish) then he can run away from grabs faster than anything Peach, Marth, ICs, Ganondorf, Samus (cept up B which is easily punishable, she has terrible rolls too) Doc, Mario, Luigi, Donkeykong, Link, YL, Mewtwo etc has...
People are just too ****ing biased to see this... jesus christ will you just stop sucking your own ****s falcon mains and realize that the reason you lose to people is because you're worse than them instead of blaming it away at things being "gay" etc... its getting ridiculous
Summonedfist
Smash Lord
watching tope and s2j play each other at apex was really disheartening
JPOBS
Smash Hero
in all seriousness, if this is true then why is it easier to tech chase him?
I'm not a falcon main so i dont care for this argument, but playing as sheik/fox/falco/marth vs falcon, regrabbing his tech is hilariously free compared to regrabbing a fox or falco tech.
So I really want to know the reason for that if its true that his data is all identical as you claim.
Max?
Smash Champion
This game sucks
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
lmao @ leffen
Devil Ray
Smash Lord
tristate smashers: creating drama since '01
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,545
1999 ***** where u at SMASH 64
i wasn't saying marth has 0 to deaths on floaties, niko. i was saying he still has a very good combo game on them; about on par with falcon's
what a character threatens to do upon wakeup is perhaps the most important factor to consider when evaluating how hard they are to techchase. in falcon's case, as long as the sheik positions herself directly next to him before he wakes up, he is helpless for not only his tech/tech recovery frames, but the 10-15 frames after in which he cannot leave sheik's vicinity/beat her close-range options. even if the sheik misses the techchase grab, the falcon is within ftilt range, jab -> regrab range, or simply regrab range. when i say falcon has a bad tech, this is what i mean. you're essentially given an extra 10-15 frames to techchase him, which is why EVERY good sheik finds it extremely easy
if i get-up -> spotdodge, unless she initiates her grab towards the middle of my spotdodge (so that the spotdodge lag ends RIGHT after her grab frames; the spotdodge -> dash thing you suggested has to be timed EXTREMELY perfectly AND the sheik has to whiff a grab at a VERY specific time), she can simply grab me again. spotdodging is hardly even an option for falcon.
if i try to dash away, jab -> regrab becomes a legitimate combo for sheik because i cannot cc the jab. (******** range jab -> grab combos on a grounded character!? broken)
lol @ "i have a good roll." rolling gets reacted to and punished at top level play, not that you would know. fox and falco are the best characters in the game because they force you to roll in lots of situations
~
also, when you tech sideways vs sheik, she has the option to dash attack you which is better than regrabbing in MANY situations. i WISH i had a guaranteed stomp (that's essentially what sheik's dash attack is) every time someone teched sideways. dash attack -> fair = guaranteed dead captain falcon/edgeguard opportunity on other characters. sheik has one of the top 3 edgeguards in the game so this is extremely good
falcon has nothing of the like. when you tech sideways vs him, he can only regrab unless he reacts within literally less than 5 frames, in which case he can knee/dair. given the startup times of both of these moves, this is borderline impossible. whenever you see me knee/dair someone off of a techchase, it is ENTIRELY prediction
tiny difference?
sheik has the 4th best non-grapple/extended range grab in the game. falcon has the 20th best
falcon has to be directly next to his opponent to grab him. sheik's grab hitbox isn't even realistic
this is anything but a tiny difference; it is singlehandedly what makes sheik's techchasing so risk-free. it doesn't have to be spaced anywhere NEAR as well as falcon's grab for it to be out of getup -> shine -> 80% combo range.
for the last time leffen, you know nothing about this game. you're an overrated average player who has smashboards convinced that he's a top pro. i don't care how much frame data you know; you're clueless when it comes to its application. the "falcon doesn't have a bad tech game" really makes me wonder why i even replied to your post ._.
edit: also jesus christ @ how much you use curses/insults in an attempt to make your argument stronger. what the **** is wrong with you
edit2: for clarification, i don't believe a word m2k says when he tries to convince people that his playstyle is entirely prediction-based, nor should anybody. do you honestly believe that someone who consistently zero to deaths people off of grabs does it off of prediction? if that's the case, m2k could pick up poker and become a multi-millionaire in less than a day because he would NEVER make the wrong decision in a hand. it's blatantly obvious that m2k waits for people to tech and then reacts accordingly; it is literally impossible for it to be any other way. if what he means to say is "i incorporate prediction into my techchasing" then congratulations, m2k, so does everybody else.
very good wording at the end; i like the attempt to brush falcon's abysmal wakeup game off as if it's of little significanceleffen said:
what a character threatens to do upon wakeup is perhaps the most important factor to consider when evaluating how hard they are to techchase. in falcon's case, as long as the sheik positions herself directly next to him before he wakes up, he is helpless for not only his tech/tech recovery frames, but the 10-15 frames after in which he cannot leave sheik's vicinity/beat her close-range options. even if the sheik misses the techchase grab, the falcon is within ftilt range, jab -> regrab range, or simply regrab range. when i say falcon has a bad tech, this is what i mean. you're essentially given an extra 10-15 frames to techchase him, which is why EVERY good sheik finds it extremely easy
if i get-up -> spotdodge, unless she initiates her grab towards the middle of my spotdodge (so that the spotdodge lag ends RIGHT after her grab frames; the spotdodge -> dash thing you suggested has to be timed EXTREMELY perfectly AND the sheik has to whiff a grab at a VERY specific time), she can simply grab me again. spotdodging is hardly even an option for falcon.
if i try to dash away, jab -> regrab becomes a legitimate combo for sheik because i cannot cc the jab. (******** range jab -> grab combos on a grounded character!? broken)
lol @ "i have a good roll." rolling gets reacted to and punished at top level play, not that you would know. fox and falco are the best characters in the game because they force you to roll in lots of situations
~
also, when you tech sideways vs sheik, she has the option to dash attack you which is better than regrabbing in MANY situations. i WISH i had a guaranteed stomp (that's essentially what sheik's dash attack is) every time someone teched sideways. dash attack -> fair = guaranteed dead captain falcon/edgeguard opportunity on other characters. sheik has one of the top 3 edgeguards in the game so this is extremely good
falcon has nothing of the like. when you tech sideways vs him, he can only regrab unless he reacts within literally less than 5 frames, in which case he can knee/dair. given the startup times of both of these moves, this is borderline impossible. whenever you see me knee/dair someone off of a techchase, it is ENTIRELY prediction
.....leffen said:
tiny difference?
sheik has the 4th best non-grapple/extended range grab in the game. falcon has the 20th best
falcon has to be directly next to his opponent to grab him. sheik's grab hitbox isn't even realistic
this is anything but a tiny difference; it is singlehandedly what makes sheik's techchasing so risk-free. it doesn't have to be spaced anywhere NEAR as well as falcon's grab for it to be out of getup -> shine -> 80% combo range.
for the last time leffen, you know nothing about this game. you're an overrated average player who has smashboards convinced that he's a top pro. i don't care how much frame data you know; you're clueless when it comes to its application. the "falcon doesn't have a bad tech game" really makes me wonder why i even replied to your post ._.
edit: also jesus christ @ how much you use curses/insults in an attempt to make your argument stronger. what the **** is wrong with you
edit2: for clarification, i don't believe a word m2k says when he tries to convince people that his playstyle is entirely prediction-based, nor should anybody. do you honestly believe that someone who consistently zero to deaths people off of grabs does it off of prediction? if that's the case, m2k could pick up poker and become a multi-millionaire in less than a day because he would NEVER make the wrong decision in a hand. it's blatantly obvious that m2k waits for people to tech and then reacts accordingly; it is literally impossible for it to be any other way. if what he means to say is "i incorporate prediction into my techchasing" then congratulations, m2k, so does everybody else.
ArcNatural
Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
Keep it civil please.
M2K sets himself into positions that give him as much time to react as possible, he doesn't NOT react. He just can't do it from positions that other players with faster reaction speeds can. Realistically, people should always look for what M2K looks for because it is usually the least demanding option based on reaction speed, while still covering either all options or all but 1 (SDI escapes excluded), but often has high demands on technical precision rather than fast technical ability.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
I'm gonna read all this when I get back seems interesting. College for now.
What I usually do when I tech chase is guess first, react second.
I do what I think they will do (often a TOTAL guess that might be REALLY BAD SOMETIMES LOL) then react 2ndly.
Example - if I am pretty sure they will tech roll, I may try to make a hard read of running to center stage to charge up smash, but I won't do this often usually. Sometimes I may just try to react to them, but my reflexes suck so I mess up a lot (but I do this A LOT STILL to keep them guessing. If they try to tech in place and roll for example, it's too slow and I'll always regrab before the roll comes out because my reflexes aren't nearly THAT bad lol). I often get shined on wakeup or even jabbed cuz my reflexes suck, but I'm really innovative and I test out a lot of strats. Sheik can Down throw someone at high % like 100%, then SH Fair where they would tech-in-place or miss-tech to cover 2 options, then cover tech roll back too by a quick dash grab, and only NOT cover the DI off stage or tech roll away from her.
Melee is so... deep... there's so many combinations of good options you can use because of the way the game is. I come up with new ideas, randomly, all the time because of the amount of different options there are. Especially when you do something people don't expect, it works out really good (cuz they aren't ready for it and they DI bad/panic/do something dumb/etc.), which is why having new random ideas is so awesome. Melee ***** cuz of it's depth and how powerful creativity and originality are. There's MANY different good ways to approach and handle <insert random situation> for most all situations in my experience. Being innovative and coming up with new ideas are SO powerful in this game, and I think that has a huge impact on it's high replay value.
What I usually do when I tech chase is guess first, react second.
I do what I think they will do (often a TOTAL guess that might be REALLY BAD SOMETIMES LOL) then react 2ndly.
Example - if I am pretty sure they will tech roll, I may try to make a hard read of running to center stage to charge up smash, but I won't do this often usually. Sometimes I may just try to react to them, but my reflexes suck so I mess up a lot (but I do this A LOT STILL to keep them guessing. If they try to tech in place and roll for example, it's too slow and I'll always regrab before the roll comes out because my reflexes aren't nearly THAT bad lol). I often get shined on wakeup or even jabbed cuz my reflexes suck, but I'm really innovative and I test out a lot of strats. Sheik can Down throw someone at high % like 100%, then SH Fair where they would tech-in-place or miss-tech to cover 2 options, then cover tech roll back too by a quick dash grab, and only NOT cover the DI off stage or tech roll away from her.
Melee is so... deep... there's so many combinations of good options you can use because of the way the game is. I come up with new ideas, randomly, all the time because of the amount of different options there are. Especially when you do something people don't expect, it works out really good (cuz they aren't ready for it and they DI bad/panic/do something dumb/etc.), which is why having new random ideas is so awesome. Melee ***** cuz of it's depth and how powerful creativity and originality are. There's MANY different good ways to approach and handle <insert random situation> for most all situations in my experience. Being innovative and coming up with new ideas are SO powerful in this game, and I think that has a huge impact on it's high replay value.
huMps
Smash Ace
Posts like that coming from a player who has been playing competitively for so long is a huge testament to this game. Good ****
Mew2King
King of the Mews
it's 100% true tho
amen to your last paragraph jason. i can't even count how many times i've mistakenly thought i'd mastered ________ (insert one of the millions of aspects of melee here) only to realize that it can be done better. i've come to realize that there is no way to gauge perfection in melee.. it's too deep
this **** is 10 years old and its metagame evolves faster than marvel 3's. nuff said
this **** is 10 years old and its metagame evolves faster than marvel 3's. nuff said
Mew2King
King of the Mews
tbh, I think Brawl is pretty ****ing deep too, but not comparable to Melee (at all), but much deeper than the vast majority of other fighters. There's a lot of ways to cover many options in that game, it's just not as fun as 0-deathing in Melee.
boss8
Smash Hero
Maylayalldaylay
LLDL
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2007
- Messages
- 7,128
Hey, that black controller you found on the chair at no johns was mine, it even has a sticker with my name on the bottom lol. I didn't realize it at the time, I thought I put it away. Could you give it to like D1 or something at sudden death if you're going.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
me? Then who has DoH's other controller. He had a black one. Are you sure I have yours? I can let you see it next time if you want, but that's weird.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
not at home
knightpraetor
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2005
- Messages
- 2,321
won't deny that hax's first post sounded a little whiny, but even so, most of what he said was true. I only wanted to comment on one thing really
having a good backwards roll is a hundred times more important in this game for techchasing mixups than having a good forwards roll.....
honestly as a marth main i didn't even know falcon had a good forward roll until you mentioned it...forward roll goes back into the marth and is easy as heck to punish so it's not even noticeable..
sheik on the other hand has a superior backroll..making marth's techchasing vs her much much harder.
If i fthrow, in order to be able to punish away i must read the DI and only dash forward if they go away...and even then at higher percents i have to either full run or dash wavedash rather than a single dash if i want to be able to reach her tech roll back on reaction..
this makes it extremely difficult for me to avoid overlapping with sheik's tech spot...which again...completely reverses the situation for marth..
and this is the huge difference between techchasing falcon and techchasing sheik...falcon's jab doesn't mean jack cause i can CC it...dash away is ok, but becomes predictable and gives up stage control...sheik actually has options if i'm too close and playing predictably...even if i were spaced perfectly, sheik has a great dash attack that starts up instantaneously which falcon doesn't have...
this was all kind of an aside as the argument wasn't really about any of this..but falcon's tech and get up are garbage. (so are most characters except sheik...but some characters have better options after teching in place
but i disagree with this statement by hax...i don't know the frame data..but i have tested reactionary techchasing rolls with dair with falcon and that should definitely be doable assuming you give up your punish against tech in place...i mean i'm pretty sure i can react and punish techrolls with dair as marth...so falcon should definitely be able to do it...are we talking about the same thing? maybe you're just talking about vs sheik?
having a good backwards roll is a hundred times more important in this game for techchasing mixups than having a good forwards roll.....
honestly as a marth main i didn't even know falcon had a good forward roll until you mentioned it...forward roll goes back into the marth and is easy as heck to punish so it's not even noticeable..
sheik on the other hand has a superior backroll..making marth's techchasing vs her much much harder.
If i fthrow, in order to be able to punish away i must read the DI and only dash forward if they go away...and even then at higher percents i have to either full run or dash wavedash rather than a single dash if i want to be able to reach her tech roll back on reaction..
this makes it extremely difficult for me to avoid overlapping with sheik's tech spot...which again...completely reverses the situation for marth..
and this is the huge difference between techchasing falcon and techchasing sheik...falcon's jab doesn't mean jack cause i can CC it...dash away is ok, but becomes predictable and gives up stage control...sheik actually has options if i'm too close and playing predictably...even if i were spaced perfectly, sheik has a great dash attack that starts up instantaneously which falcon doesn't have...
this was all kind of an aside as the argument wasn't really about any of this..but falcon's tech and get up are garbage. (so are most characters except sheik...but some characters have better options after teching in place
but i disagree with this statement by hax...i don't know the frame data..but i have tested reactionary techchasing rolls with dair with falcon and that should definitely be doable assuming you give up your punish against tech in place...i mean i'm pretty sure i can react and punish techrolls with dair as marth...so falcon should definitely be able to do it...are we talking about the same thing? maybe you're just talking about vs sheik?
SwiftBass
Smash Hero
falcon has one good roll(forward). His other is trash
as do most of the community
Neji
Smash Cadet
There were a lot of good matches in there. My favorite was probably M2K vs Hax though. That beast Falcon vs that absolutely on crack Sheik. Lol.
It would have been nice to see Grand Finals. I looked forward to a reset, possibly even 2 since Hax came from losers.
It would have been nice to see Grand Finals. I looked forward to a reset, possibly even 2 since Hax came from losers.
i'm still waiting on leffen's response to my post
edit: lol he was viewing the thread just now. he left as quickly as possible so that i wouldn't notice
i've never seen someone go from calling someone a ****** and a biased ***** 10 times in a single post to forfeiting an argument so quickly upon realizing he sucks at this game
what a little *****
edit: lol he was viewing the thread just now. he left as quickly as possible so that i wouldn't notice
i've never seen someone go from calling someone a ****** and a biased ***** 10 times in a single post to forfeiting an argument so quickly upon realizing he sucks at this game
what a little *****
DoH
meleeitonme.tumblr.com
Let's get back to talking about what's really important here: my power shields
leffen
Smash Champion
I was viewing hthis thread on my phone. I don't really wanna spend 10 hours to write a 200 word post, thank you very much.
Please stop PMing me lol, its getting pretty pathetic.
I'm sure that you "sandbagged" at the tournament yesterday and that's why you lost THREE best of five sets. I'm sure thats not a john/lie :>
I'll gladly answer your post later, for now I have some school work to clear out, Valentines day's coming up and I've a lot of planning to do since I'm hosting a 70+man tournament this saturday+sunday.
Please stop PMing me lol, its getting pretty pathetic.
I'm sure that you "sandbagged" at the tournament yesterday and that's why you lost THREE best of five sets. I'm sure thats not a john/lie :>
I'll gladly answer your post later, for now I have some school work to clear out, Valentines day's coming up and I've a lot of planning to do since I'm hosting a 70+man tournament this saturday+sunday.
- Status