Ness Question and Answer Thread, Ask Ness questions Here!

[PK-Matt]

Yeah, Marth is a certain problem when it comes to me, too. :/

I've been watching some videos, and it seems like a good amount of Ness users don't like to use his PK Flash.

 

[Eagleye893]

I gave up on trying to incorporate PK Flash after a while. The only way in which I could think to use it is after an AC'd DAir pops the opponent in the air, but it's still tricky to predict when the opponent will airdodge.

Basically, if you're playing a Marth or DK main, you will have a VERY hard time. I played Ripple this one tournament and got 2-stocked pretty easily, partly because of the dumb cargo-release Chaingrab. Marth is already difficult without the stupid grab-release Chaingrab... >.<

I picked up D3 and used to second Kirby, but the problem with Kirby was that a.) DK and Marth both had a pretty reasonable advantage on him and b.) Kirby is easy to read.

D3 is good because he has an advantage over Marth and a HUGE advantage over DK. The only problem with him is that is it's MUCH harder to pick up a kill than it is with Ness.
For example, Ness has BAir, UAir, and Bthrow as good options overall, and once characters start to go over 130%, ftilt and utilt are great options. DSmash is a random kill-move that you probably won't land unless your opponent messes up. FSmash is one of those moves you can catch people off guard with once or twice, but it's risky.
D3, on the other hand, only has BAir, which is staled often, FAir, which doesn't kill as quickly as I'd like it to, and utilt as slightly reliable kill moves. FSmash, USmash, and DSmash are all too slow to be considered reliable, and dtilt doesn't count as a kill move unless you get lucky or are playing some vertical-recovering character. Gordo is unreliable, and UAir/DAir can be SDI'd easily... and they don't kill well in the first place.

 

[PK-Matt]

Thanks so much Eagle

Any tips on Olimar? I'm having such a trouble time beating him with Ness. >.> He's so small and his extension with the Pikmin can really screw up my combos.

 

[Host Change]

Could someone give me tips for the Ness vs Snake MU?

Yeah, I'd much rather go straight Ness. He's the only character that I truly know backwards and forwards, you know? I'd feel comfortable knowing what to do when I face certain characters and such.

I know that feeling... I main Falco now but I played Ness for so long that when my back is against the wall, I usually feel better playing Ness as odd as it may sound.

 

[Neon Ness]

Remember to take this all with a grain of salt, but it's tough for Ness for a few reasons.

Snake's projectile game is superior, so if the Snake stays on the other side of the stage and pressures with grenades from afar it can be a pain to get close. This advantage gives them a great deal of stage control, so you probably want to pick a stage that gives you a better chance of getting around this obstacle... FD and Smashville for instance really make this an uphill battle for Ness since they're wide and flat, but something Brinstar might be a good counterpick.

The hard part is getting close enough to deal damage/get your opponent to do what you want-- even at close range, Snake has a few safe keep away options (grab range, tilts). But getting Snake into the air might level the playing field a bit. His aerials do have a fair bit of range but his mobility is more limited while airborne, which could be an opportunity for juggling with PKT/aerials. In the off chance you can force him to recover low, Ness can mess with his recovery in a few ways (dair, Magnet, grabbing him out of up B).

I don't think there is such a thing as an 'impossible' matchup, but if you plan on using Ness for Snake be prepared to work that much harder. Good luck.

 

[Bartolon]

Erase this post

Posted on wrong topic lol

 

[Host Change]

Remember to take this all with a grain of salt, but it's tough for Ness for a few reasons.

Snake's projectile game is superior, so if the Snake stays on the other side of the stage and pressures with grenades from afar it can be a pain to get close. This advantage gives them a great deal of stage control, so you probably want to pick a stage that gives you a better chance of getting around this obstacle... FD and Smashville for instance really make this an uphill battle for Ness since they're wide and flat, but something Brinstar might be a good counterpick.

The hard part is getting close enough to deal damage/get your opponent to do what you want-- even at close range, Snake has a few safe keep away options (grab range, tilts). But getting Snake into the air might level the playing field a bit. His aerials do have a fair bit of range but his mobility is more limited while airborne, which could be an opportunity for juggling with PKT/aerials. In the off chance you can force him to recover low, Ness can mess with his recovery in a few ways (dair, Magnet, grabbing him out of up B).

I don't think there is such a thing as an 'impossible' matchup, but if you plan on using Ness for Snake be prepared to work that much harder. Good luck.

Allright thanks for the reply. I know theoretically my Falco would be a far better MU for Snake, but the truth is I have no experience with that because in Alabama only a few people have decent Snakes and I just attended my first tournament last weekend. I got knocked in the losers bracket because I played a bad Snake that tried to dacus 8 or so times in a row and I did a bad job adapting so I lost the set 1-2.

I know Ness would make things more difficult for me, but I'm probably going to go Ness against Snake next tournament unless I can get some good matchup experience against some decent Snake players between now and then. Ness was my secondary the last 3 months of Melee, and my main for most of the time since Brawl came out so I feel more comfortable playing as him in certain situations.

As long as I don't go up against an amazing Snake (the best one in the state doesn't play him anymore) I feel as if I have a shot in this matchup.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

Poll from the BBR-RC to the public: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=310386

Discussion about it is not allowed per site rules (even in this thread), but we are allowed to conduct this poll

you heard it from me

 

[P.I.E.]

I know Ness would make things more difficult for me, but I'm probably going to go Ness against Snake next tournament unless I can get some good matchup experience against some decent Snake players between now and then. Ness was my secondary the last 3 months of Melee, and my main for most of the time since Brawl came out so I feel more comfortable playing as him in certain situations.
.

Im sorry but it is a terrible idea. from immense tourney experience, im telling you that falco has an incredible advantage and to not let that go. Practice his chain grab to spike. practice double laser. using the reflector better, and that jab release of his. if you don't have a lot of mu experience against most characters, you will have an extremely hard time winning. especially if you dont master his combos and his general flow. Play some friendlies at tournies with falco. play them often, and you will be fine.

 

[pooka216]

Hey i'm new and i just went to my first tournament this weekend where i got pretty manhandled. i only entered doubles with my friend which wasn't tooo bad but all of the 1v1 friendlies were pretty depressing. I was messing up simple things that i never do when i play against my friend... so i guess my question is how do i get over the nervous feeling i get while i'm playing that makes me do stupid things.


Oh and i was watching a pikachu and lucas team and they were doing some fancy healing where lucas went under a platform and healed like 70 from pikachus thunder... i couldn't figure out how that worked

 

[Eagleye893]

WELCOME TO THE NESS BOARDS, pooka! xD Always good to see new people (especially because this board is so dead... )

What I'm going to say concerning nerves may not help much, but imagine when you play 1v1 vs good people, bad people, or anyone you're not used to playing, just think of it as if you were playing your friend. You won't LITERALLY be playing your friend, but if you aren't thinking "I hope I do well against this guy" or you put the idea that you might lose to the back of your mind, you'll play better.
Basically, don't psych yourself out. Just play to play, and if you win, that's cool. Also, it helps to practice a bit against some people to make sure you do all of your ATs and such consistently. If you don't have something 100% mastered outside a tournament, chances are you won't be able to recreate that in tournament.

Healing shenanigans involve good team synergy. You and your partner need to know when you want to heal or when you're able to heal. If opponents act a bit more campy, you can step back a bit and heal with something for Ness. Just work on finding some ways to slip in a quick heal, such as using PSI-mag lag cancel (absorb things while on the ground and jump/roll/sidestep out of it)

 

[pooka216]

Thanks for the advice. i think i just need to play more overall. I feel like i didn't get many matches in with different players.
Yeah we were having a hard time healing much but i was talking about that specific heal. Lucas went to the lower platform on battlefield and pikachu went on the top platform and thundered himself healing like 70 damage. They kept saying it was the best heal in the game and my friend just so happens to use pikachu sooo... yeah. i also saw them do it on halberd and brinstar.

 

[Eagleye893]

hmmm.... With pika...

I'm thinking it's because of two different things:

Lucas' PSImagnet heals 2-times the amount of damage an energy move would do (generally) up to a certain percent as opposed to Ness' which only gets 1.5-times the damage (generally) and
Pika's Thunder can heal with either the thunderbolt or the part where it hits him.

Maybe they found something crazy where the PSImagnet takes in both the thunderbolt AND that hit on pika, but I'm not entirely sure. I think it should just heal about 20-30 damage... If I could test things out, I would.... but I don't have my wii and I'm at college. EXAMSSSSSSS GRAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

When I get to an open Wii, I'll see. I'm fairly sure it doesn't heal 70 though; my past experience shows only 30%-heals max from one energy attack.


THIS REMINDS ME!
D3 is probably the best partner for Ness because he can throw out some waddle-dees/doos/gordo's until some waddle-doo comes out, then play normally, trying to leave alone the waddle-doo so that Ness can jump in and heal a bunch. I think the full attack from Waddle-doo's heal about 40% or so, and if someone hits Ness out of it, they get ****ed.

 

[pooka216]

i messed with it with my friend and i think we figured it out. Lucas' magnet apparently has a slightly wider range and was working on battlefield and frigate... but ness' magnet would not. If you jump with pika and thunder so you hit yourself with it at the same time as the ground then it heals a Lot more. We messed with some stages and found spots where ness' magnet would do the same: Delphino under the red platform thing on the 3rd or 4th transformation. Delphino under the umbrellas. Yoshi's island when the center platform is tilted all the way down. A few more work with slopes but are too risky to pull off imo. It may not be 70 because the person i was watching was lucas, but im pretty sure it's at least 50 which is still notable.

 

[Eagleye893]

Hmmm... If you could post some video of that, it'd be something really cool to know. Good find/re-find!

 

[P.I.E.]

I was wondering, what would be a generally good counterpick vs. falco, wario and olimar? Also, i like to retreat offstage using aerial pkfire, and then, pkjump back, creating a double pillar trap that racks up around 22- 24% Damage. depending on how i time pkjump, i end up either in front or behing my opponent, making my easiest follow ups nair, Uair, And bair. do you have any other suggEstions for followups?

 

[Neon Ness]

That's a tough one...

I feel like really flat stages are Falco's playgrounds. Gives him a lot of room to laser camp and move around with DACUS/phantasm. So I guess I would recommend stages that will break up that strategy somewhat... Brinstar and Japes come to mind.

I'm actually not sure what to suggest for the other 2, especially Wario. I'll have to look into what those other boards say about stage selection.

 

[R e d X]

Not surprisingly I have an absolutely terrible time facing Marth. I frequestly lose to players beneath my skill level just because of that MU. I can currently deal with most -2 MUs like Snake and even DDD (-3), but I have a REAL problem with Marth. Always have even when I'm not playing Ness. Any tips?

 

[Neon Ness]

Look into getting a secondary... unless you're bent on becoming a Ness-only superstar or something.

Otherwise don't hesitate to use a character with a better chance. Since D3/Snake don't seem to give you any trouble I'd recommend using D3 as a secondary for Marth. He's got way more range than Ness so approaching and dealing damage to Marth should be reasonable at least, and there won't be GR worries. MK is another good option (until January, anyway) if you're really not sure what to do. Just keep in mind he's not auto-win as some people would like to suggest.

Against any player of any character, remember to just look for patterns, and ways to overcome those patterns. Think about how they react to what you do, and think about every single option you have in any given situation. At the end of the day Marth has more range than Ness and one grab can easily end a stock. No amount of tips or advice will change that, but if you're prepared and want to prove something to yourself/others by winning with Ness then go for it. If you ever have any videos of yourself playing Marth we can give specific advice, since all Marth players are different.

 

[R e d X]

Look into getting a secondary... unless you're bent on becoming a Ness-only superstar or something.

Otherwise don't hesitate to use a character with a better chance. Since D3/Snake don't seem to give you any trouble I'd recommend using D3 as a secondary for Marth. He's got way more range than Ness so approaching and dealing damage to Marth should be reasonable at least, and there won't be GR worries. MK is another good option (until January, anyway) if you're really not sure what to do. Just keep in mind he's not auto-win as some people would like to suggest.

Against any player of any character, remember to just look for patterns, and ways to overcome those patterns. Think about how they react to what you do, and think about every single option you have in any given situation. At the end of the day Marth has more range than Ness and one grab can easily end a stock. No amount of tips or advice will change that, but if you're prepared and want to prove something to yourself/others by winning with Ness then go for it. If you ever have any videos of yourself playing Marth we can give specific advice, since all Marth players are different.

Tbh I used to main MK (Ness was seconday) till the ban was proposed and I realized MK was probly getting the boot. Shame too cause I was close to getting on the PR for my region with MK. Had it in mind that a secondary would probably be the best idea cause I was really doubtful that there was some magical way that Ness could overcome Marth. D3 sounds reasonable, prolly a good thing to look into. On a side note, would you recommend Falco for Marth? I know he's good for Snake if I ever run into trouble and I think the MU is 0 for Falco v Marth. I only ask because I have some experience with Falco so he'd be easier to pick up for me than D3.

And don't worry I've got the preception aspect of the game down just workin on a few troublesome MUs that keep getting me knocked out of tournies earlier than I should be (Marth, somewhat Wario and, for some reason, Wolf). Thanks for the advice!

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Red X, pick up Dedede for Marth, we at the Dedede boards will welcome you.

Also hi.

 

[Veggi]

One of my friends mains Ness and has problems with Marth players and the infinite. Is extra inch DI real or if a Marth grabs you are you just dead?

 

[R e d X]

One of my friends mains Ness and has problems with Marth players and the infinite. Is extra inch DI real or if a Marth grabs you are you just dead?

My experience with this is that you can indeed inch your way across the stage to the edge during the GR, though if you're at any decent damage, they'll usually GR to a D-Smash or something which means death. But if you get GRed at like 0% you'll prolly escape with your life... albeit an unfortunate amount of damage.

 

[Eagleye893]

EIDI was a theoretical thing where a person could break out of a grab-release from Marth or other characters with a bit of manipulation of control sticks. The real reason people thought it worked was because the Marth wasn't pummeling properly, which allows Ness to release just far enough out of range of Marth IFF he was holding the right direction during the pummels.

So, EIDI, as far as everyone knows, doesn't exist. If it did, it's darn difficult to use consistently.

 

[Yink]

One of my friends mains Ness and has problems with Marth players and the infinite. Is extra inch DI real or if a Marth grabs you are you just dead?

Actually, according to Shaky and myself it DOES exist. Mind you, he and I did it on wifi but he said he was able to pull it off offline with a correct mashing technique using the d-pad iirc.

I don't think we can call it EIDI, but it's basically the same thing...only problem is, if Ness gets far enough away, Marth just walks forward and regrabs. This is still loads better than moving like, a centimeter forward and getting pummeled to death.

So I'd say look into proper mashing, because Shaky can realistically get out of it. Otherwise, hope for an air release or learn to stay near edges to avoid lots of damage or death. It's still a really frustrating match up though.

 

[I SEE YOU]

Is there a thread with character specific matchups? All i found was the matchup chart.

 

[Veggi]

Alright, thanks for the help, guys.

 

[Yink]

Is there a thread with character specific matchups? All i found was the matchup chart.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=188116

There you go, this info is incredibly outdated though. When I get a bit more time I'll post summaries for everyone.

 

[I SEE YOU]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=188116

There you go, this info is incredibly outdated though. When I get a bit more time I'll post summaries for everyone.

Thank you! I'm interested in picking up Ness. I'm sure i'll get something out of these old matchup summaries.

 

[P.I.E.]

Vs. Olimar: Offensive or Defensive?

 

[Man of Popsicle]

ALWAYS OFFENSE
vs. everyone

 

[JuanShotKill]

What is a good alt for Ness players? I feel like the Math match up is unwinnable along with some others. Would Falco be a good alt? He has pretty even match ups

 

[Man of Popsicle]

Best secondary = Ness in a different costume.

 

[Neon Ness]

MoP, quit your trolling lol. >:V

I have heard of Falco being a good alt for Ness from others, personally I recommend D3 since he can handle Marth, Snake, and DK which I find tough for Ness. The only problem with using D3 as a secondary for Ness is that you still have no way to deal with D3 (besides doing D3 mirrors lol). So in that case Falco/MK might be better choices, yeah.

 

[Eagleye893]

My second is Green Ness. It psychs everyone out.
My tertiary is Saturn Ness. He's got a black shirt, yo!

My character that I'll rarely if ever use is Kirby. He doesn't cover the Marth matchup, so I basically just use Ness all the time.

I say that good seconds are Marth, Fox, Falco, and D3

Marth... some people hate the Marth ditto. Idunno. He covers all but D3. I LIKE PLAYING AGAINST D3 AS NESS! DON'T JUDGE ME!
Fox, he's got some crazy stuff up his sleeve if you're good with him. Can POTENTIALLY counter Snake, DK, and I don't know about some other characters. Idunno, I've recently gotten annoyed by fox. Dajay seconds him. That seems like good reason.
I personally can't play falco... I hate his playstyle. He can cover D3, DK(?) and Snake pretty well. Marth, it depends on the Marth. Falco seems like a good choice in my opinion though.
D3 covers what Neon said. D3 ditto annoys me so much.

 

[Yink]

So in that case Falco/MK might be better choices, yeah.

I agree, or Marth. I use Marth personally and it works wonders. Though I do attempt Ness v Marth sometimes. Every Marth I've played thus far has died to a PK Flash too.

 

[I SEE YOU]

I've been playing Ness a lot lately. Is Pit supposed to be giving me this much trouble? It seems like he out prioritizes everything i throw at him & I can't really force an approach because of arrows. Anyone play this matchup?

 

[Yink]

I've been playing Ness a lot lately. Is Pit supposed to be giving me this much trouble? It seems like he out prioritizes everything i throw at him & I can't really force an approach because of arrows. Anyone play this matchup?

I actually just did a gigantic discussion on it lol. Pit's a match up where if you don't know it it's tough.

Think of it like this, Pit's better on the ground, but I'd LIKE to argue you're better in the air. Ness actually can camp Pit pretty well, due to actually forcing an approach once you start winning (because realistically, he cannot approach with arrows because magnet cancels). My advice is to be very patient with your spacing of fair and nair and don't be afraid to PK Fire in the air, I recommend it for most match ups!

I'd say you just need to practice it more. I played a Pit awhile ago and had no real trouble, but it was because I was just careful in the spacing area, and if I had to, I'd camp and force an approach.

If you need any other advice, just ask.

This may be a bit old, but here's some reference from Bartolon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zLb-lBS7WQ

 

[Jimmyfosho]

just wondering, what characters have an infinite on ness?

 

[V1cegrip]

Nobody has a true, unbreakable infinite on Ness. If by infinite you mean 'significant chance to re-grab in place or almost in place by use of grab release' I would say that it is Marth, Squirtle, Charizard, and Donkey Kong. If by infinite you mean 'characters that can chaingrab Ness across the stage using grab release' that would include a large portion of the cast, including Ness himself.