Ness Question and Answer Thread, Ask Ness questions Here!

[Eagleye893]

Nobody has a true, unbreakable infinite on Ness. If by infinite you mean 'significant chance to re-grab in place or almost in place by use of grab release' I would say that it is Marth, Squirtle, Charizard, and Donkey Kong. If by infinite you mean 'characters that can chaingrab Ness across the stage using grab release' that would include a large portion of the cast, including Ness himself.

The "large chance to regrab" parts depend on the person.
DK is annoying >.>
The other 3 you can sometimes force an air release if you're good at mashing. (THANK YOU YINK FOR TEACHING ME HOW TO MASH!!! xD)

Everyone else with a walking/dashing GR across the stage you just need to mash out quickly or cause an air-release.

 

[JuanShotKill]

In the subject of Olimar. How does one approach Olimar? If so, what general strategies should I use against him? I am having trouble with his camping and ******** priority.

 

[Eagleye893]

Generally, don't force approaching Olimar. Wait back a tiny bit and NAir off the pikmin he throws. Gradually get a bit closer so that you have the potential for a DashAttack, USmash or a DashGrab when you are certain that you will hit. I would normally advise someone to use lots of AC'd DAirs, but Olimar's grab can get you out of the air if he uses it right.
BAir on shield is awesome, but try to not be predictable as to which side you will land on. I often hit the back end of someone's shield with BAir, but if they catch on to that you want to do some crazy cross-up maneuvers and land in front of them. Blank SH's or FH's can allow you to bait Olimar into doing something first, but just beware of the USmash and the upB. If you're good at PK Jump, use that to pick at pikmin to set up a pillar so that you can squeeze in a tiny approach. In my opinion, as long as you aren't getting smashed, PK Fire on the red pikmin is a good idea most of the time so that you can get up a pillar and move in bit by bit, but be sure that if you're using PK Fire that you won't get grabbed or that the pillar will assuredly go up. One mishap with a laggy attack such as PK Fire will lead to severe punishment.

 

[JuanShotKill]

Generally, don't force approaching Olimar. Wait back a tiny bit and NAir off the pikmin he throws. Gradually get a bit closer so that you have the potential for a DashAttack, USmash or a DashGrab when you are certain that you will hit. I would normally advise someone to use lots of AC'd DAirs, but Olimar's grab can get you out of the air if he uses it right.
BAir on shield is awesome, but try to not be predictable as to which side you will land on. I often hit the back end of someone's shield with BAir, but if they catch on to that you want to do some crazy cross-up maneuvers and land in front of them. Blank SH's or FH's can allow you to bait Olimar into doing something first, but just beware of the USmash and the upB. If you're good at PK Jump, use that to pick at pikmin to set up a pillar so that you can squeeze in a tiny approach. In my opinion, as long as you aren't getting smashed, PK Fire on the red pikmin is a good idea most of the time so that you can get up a pillar and move in bit by bit, but be sure that if you're using PK Fire that you won't get grabbed or that the pillar will assuredly go up. One mishap with a laggy attack such as PK Fire will lead to severe punishment.

Thank you so damn much :D

 

[Labernash]

Hey lovely Ness', what are some things I can do for stage control?

 

[Eagleye893]

Stage control... In terms of what?
Just like being able to have control over where your opponent goes and such? If in that sense, I say having your opponent above you is generally the best way of assuring that you keep control over their motions and such. Ness' DashGrab, UAir, DashAttack, and PK Fire all do well to cover people attempting to land, UAir being one of the most potent of moves. Having your opponent in the air is almost always the best option. A couple characters defy that, such as MK, Marth, and some other character I'm forgetting.

If you mean in terms of moving Ness around the stage in the most efficient manner, I say learn to AC DAir's everywhere and anywhere. A well-Auto-canceled DAir will be lagless, allowing for you to shield, dash, walk, or jump again with ease. When I feel like messing around a bit in the middle of a match, I just throw off a bunch of AC'd DAir's while moving between platforms to gain some sort of vantage over my opponent. The more easily you can transition between air and ground, and the more easily you can transition between dashing and being in the air (USING UAIR!!!!), the better time you'll have moving about the stage to catch up with an opponent both safely and awesomely.


Remember these things:
BAir has great shield push-back and little landing lag. If you manage to hit the back end of someone's shield, it's normally good. Characters like MK, Marth, and Bowser can often just upB out of shield, but on most other characters, you're safe if you space it right.
UAir has insane range. If you master that hitbox, your opponent will hate you with a passion, because they will both have a difficult time landing and get caught in UAir traps a lot.
DAir AC'd correctly is essentially lagless. Use this to your advantage, but don't over-do it.
WHEN IN DOUBT, SLOW DOWN AND WALK. This I learned from Yink, and it actually helps.
LEARN PK JUMP! It's becoming apparent to me how potent it is against airborne opponents. On people who are on the ground, you're better off with blank jumps and slowly approaching them with like FH stuff (either blank or dropdown AC'd DAir.... or BAir... or UAir.... idk)

 

[Yink]

Walking is very good for stage control. If you're confident I'd try it out. By walking you have more time to make a decision, and more time to punish.

 

[Labernash]

This is all very helpful; thank you guys!!

So, stay on the ground, punish landings, etc.? Is U-throw a good idea to get them in the air? I land grabs often (B-Throw kills, lololol) so could I essentially just U-Throw when I grab them earlier on? Or does F or D-throw put them in a better position for Ness?

 

[Eagleye893]

UThrow doesn't place opponents in a nice spot to punish. DThrow is almost always the best, followed by FThrow. If you grab someone at 0%, BThrow and you can attempt to chain it into another grab.

DThrow, your opponent is in range of a little thing I like to call "UAir". You have to dash forward immediately after the throw and FH immediately upon dashing and UAir really quickly, but it works on almost everyone, depending on the direction that they DI. If above you, FH UAir works normally. If they DI furthest out, you can dash toward them and try to do some shenanigans involving either RAR BAir or just some insane re-grabs after shielding and reading your opponent's landing.... or OoS NAir, b/c that is the best possible option ever.

<3 OoS NAir. xD

 

[Labernash]

Alright, cool! Very helpful! I can't wait to try this stuff!

Ness2gewd

 

[P.I.E.]

Kay, So I've begun to pick up marth as a second, and I'm getting really good results. Is there Any situation where I should absolutely use him rather than ness? My main bad MU's are wario, d3, and Ike, but I feel like I may just need to be a bit more patient (and be a bit less stupid with counterpicking) rather than using a different character, not to mention that I'm hell bent on winning a tourney using only ness, but then again there have been times (last tourney vs. D3) where sticking to that didn't always work. What would be the best course of action?

 

[Rockmix]

Be more patient against those characters.

 

[P.I.E.]

True ^ I feel kinda dumb now xD

 

[Flame Hyenard]

Ness's D-Smash can KO Meta-Knight below 120% when the yo-yo starts to go in front of you (Meta Knight must be behind Ness before releasing the attack to work). I unintentionally did this during a ladder match on AiB (I lost the match, but I put up a good fight though).

Just thought of sharing this information with you guys, since I second Ness.

 

[Eagleye893]

Ness's D-Smash can KO Meta-Knight below 120% when the yo-yo starts to go in front of you (Meta Knight must be behind Ness before releasing the attack to work). I unintentionally did this during a ladder match on AiB (I lost the match, but I put up a good fight though).

Just thought of sharing this information with you guys, since I second Ness.

It is true that Ness' D-Smash has good knockback. The problem is that if you miss or don't place it just right, you'll get punished undoubtedly. Like it's so slow and most of the time it's easy to see coming and they can DI it to live for a while.

 

[Yink]

Ness's D-Smash can KO Meta-Knight below 120% when the yo-yo starts to go in front of you (Meta Knight must be behind Ness before releasing the attack to work). I unintentionally did this during a ladder match on AiB (I lost the match, but I put up a good fight though).

Just thought of sharing this information with you guys, since I second Ness.

I'd say this is good for an MK who rolls a lot. You can catch them off guard. Other than that, like Eagle said, it's very risky because if you miss, you miss and take the punish for it (and in the MK match up, that can be pretty bad).

STILL, it's a nice bit of info, and I like using yo-yo against MKs who roll.

 

[Flame Hyenard]

Like I said, it was an unintentionnal kill as I would instead go for B-Air / B-Throw to KO at this percentage.

Does anyone here have trouble fighting Peach ? I can give a few advices to fight her if you want

 

[Eagleye893]

You know what my advice is for fighting against peach? IF YOU HAVE A TURNIP, YOU WIN!

DJC Turnip throw > (UAir/BAir/NAir or AD > grab) if you do everything right you can catch the turnip by using the aerial or airdodge if you throw forward and move with it at full aerial speed (I need to test this again, but it was awesome when it worked).

How I normally use an item on my opponents is tricky. If their shield is somewhat weakened is to throw down with a DJC throw and land behind them with a BAir. What happens is the item hits the top (and hopefully top-right) edge of their shield so that when I drop with the Bair, a poke is really likely.

I'll post the rest of what I'm wanting to say in the general discussion.

 

[Flame Hyenard]

I have no real problem against Peach. In fact, I win more than I lose when I use Ness against her. Aerials and PK Thunder 1 are my weapons of choice against her in the air. I don't know how to DJC (what does it even means ? O__O) though, is there a simple tutorial somewhere ?

 

[Ralph Cecil]

I think DJC is double jump cancel. =D

 

[Flame Hyenard]

Double Jump Cancel ? I thought it was only in 64 and Melee ?

 

[Eagleye893]

Ness can only Double Jump Cancel thrown items and his specials. The only special which doesn't just completely stop his movement is PK Fire, and you can see that happen if you use it in similar time to 64 and melee (maybe a bit slower). Ness can also PK Jump, which makes him move upward rather than halting vertical momentum, by inputing PK Fire almost immediately after you use your second jump.

The properties you can use with PK Fire with Ness' second jump can also be used with thrown items. You can essentially PK Jump it if you input an item throw immediately after the jump, but most of the time I delay it.
This leads me to wonder: Can Lucas also Zap Jump the item throw? if he can, also pretty epic.

But yeah, the DJC item throw essentially gives Ness a pseudo-DJC Aerial.


If I wasn't restricting myself from playing brawl, I would just record some off-screen stuff.

 

[P.I.E.]

So I've noticed that even though nair is ness' fastest move, I don't DI well... I watch a video of FOW and he used Uair, and it's worked wonders for me. How is this possible? Are there even more efficient DI aerials to use?

 

[Flame Hyenard]

I use Uair with almost every character I use (except for G&W, in which case I go Nair + Apocalyptic Bucket). That aerial attack works quite well in terms of DI (at least for me).

 

[Ralph Cecil]

I don't really know much about Ness, but i'd imagine that dair would be good too. I say that only because if you use the c-stick it auto fast falls.

 

[heybrun]

Does any Ness here master PK Thunder?

My style of fighting is based around PK Thunder, and I really control that move. Looking at the PK Thunder guide, I'm somewhat surprise that the guide doesn't have a lot of informations, especially the mindgame of that move. Many strategies I use with it doesn't seem to be mentioned anywhere. Even simple rules like: "keeping it near" don't appear.

I mean, PK Thunder can attack, space, poke, combo, spam, bait and be used in an infinity of ways. Controlling that move means you can adapt it to almost any situation. This move has so much potential, and it seems it is barely scratched.

So, in my quest of becoming better, I'm wondering if you guys developed strategies with that move, or if your game is based around that move, or you want to be better, or anything?

 

[Eagleye893]

With me, there is no distinct strategy to using PKT. I literally use it differently every time it comes to mind to use it. The only thing that stays consistent is when I use it on SV. The moving platform gives Ness an assured camping measure on almost all characters, minus Falco and Pit (ROB can also be a problem if you're not using the PKT right), if you land on it immediately as it's moving away from your opponent and start a PKT.
You can use it to PKT ledge-stall against most characters effectively to either wear down their shield or poke and set up for some form of followup. I use this a ton, but not in a simple sense; what I tend to do is use it slightly above the ledge if my opponent is a bit further back so that I have both the potential to land onstage and on ledge. I almost always land on the ledge though, b/c it's so much safer and quick if you're good with ledges. I've gotten to timing this weird method well, but it's tricky.

I also tend to use PKT a bunch more if my opponent is in the air within a certain spot of the stage. If you place the PKT right and your opponent is in the air, they will get hit either out of an airdodge, as soon as they land, or sometime surrounding the usage of an aerial (MK and Marth are the best at just annihilating the PKT though). If you're too close, the opponent can just hit you. If you're too far, the opponent just avoids it entirely. The key is finding the space in which it is easiest to punish someone who's been hit into the air while also keeping yourself safe.

Otherwise, I tend not to risk it. There are too many things that can go wrong if you misplace or mis-use PKT. Fishing for PKT2's is one of the dumbest things ever, b/c Ness has a bunch of reliable kill options already and getting the opponent in a situation where he is certain to get hit by PKT2 is extremely improbable. Sure, you can kill early with a PKT2, but it's easy to punish for any smart opponent, to the point where you'll either die or take a ton of damage in missing the PKT2.

 

[P.I.E.]

Personally I just don't use it onstage at all unless I have a good distance on them... The lagtime you're left with is ridiculous. Ledgestall is mad legit and it's a great tool to use offstage (Especially vs. diddy, lawlz) you can get a star ko if someone's stupid enough to get caught in the tail and the headwhen you circle it :D It's sure to get a bunch of "BULL**** THATS NOT POSSIBLE!" you can semi trap a character on any given platform on Battlefield if you got your timing down. You can stage spike with it. It's the most useful too :D If you have the uncontrollable urge to get someone with pk jibaku, make sure you can trap them in the tail for safety :3 pk jibaku baiting ftw

 

[Flame Hyenard]

Jibaku ? Do you mean PK Flash ? (Baku roughly means explosive, and PK Flash is the only attack I can think of)

 

[Neon Ness]

I think he's talking about when Ness launches himself with PK Thunder.

 

[Screk]

So this might be a very vague question but can I get some help improving my Ness. What I mean is pointing out bad habits,learning AT's, and so forth any help would be nice :D .

 

[Eagleye893]

I would be glad to help; even though I don't really play this game anymore, I know some crazy **** and I love strategic stuffz. The only reason I'm not great at this game is b/c I don't practice and don't WANT to anymore.

1.) Love the Sollux avy. xD
2.) If you could post a vid of a match of yours (preferably one vs. a skilled player or "close matches"), I'll go ahead and critique the guts out of you.

 

[Screk]

Right now this is the only video I have of me playing online friendlies vs my friend hawky on his live stream.
http://www.twitch.tv/hawky111/b/303861651 ( I pk fire way to much Dx )

 

[Eagleye893]

Okay, just from a bit of a skim of watching, Too much grounded PK Fire. PK Fire is much better done aerially, but only in the following manners:

Immediately following fullhop, canceling the lag in the air with a DJ, AD, or UAir/NAir.
PK Jump (Something awesome)
DJC on the moving platform of SV so that you land on the platform and it moves away from the opponent.
DJ (NO CANCEL!) and do something after it to cancel lag.

I personally use the second and fourth ones more than anything, which is sorta bad. The first one I try to use, but I mess something up with it a bunch. It needs some planning on the Ness' end. A bunch of reading and reacting.

I don't know why the diddy didn't use many nannerz. I guess b/c I make it a point that Ness with an item is broken, but idunno.

Try not to run in w/ FAir. It works sometimes, but most of the time running forward with it just leaves the hitbox shorter than it would normally be, making it so the opponent can SDI/DI out of it easily AND hit you if they play right. FAir is still a good aerial, but use it not when approaching. It's more a punish and combo follow-up or spacing tool than anything else.

(more later)

 

[Screk]

Thanks I'll put that into use later cause right now im like half awake . I have to work on to learn them when I have free time again . Also the PK fire on the ground is a bad habit of mine for a while now have to shake that but thanks for the input .

 

[Neon Ness]

Don't forget, if you want to post/talk about videos, they can go here:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=276689

 

[P.I.E.]

Jibaku ? Do you mean PK Flash ? (Baku roughly means explosive, and PK Flash is the only attack I can think of)

I think he's talking about when Ness launches himself with PK Thunder.

Yeah pkt2 xD I just like the name. I think it was yink who called it that one time in the social thread? xP

I would be glad to help; even though I don't really play this game anymore, I know some crazy **** and I love strategic stuffz. The only reason I'm not great at this game is b/c I don't practice and don't WANT to anymore.

y u no play no more >:U -cries- Did I miss something?

Question: what should I do about falco?? T~T All I can do it strike platforms nd cp flat stages so I can duck, but tht makes it worse and it's so frustrating, and I can pull off beating falco, but it's SOOO HAAARDD! I know I ought to post a vid to get a better, more specific response in particular for myself, but I can't right now o.o suggestions?

 

[Neon Ness]

Question: what should I do about falco?? T~T All I can do it strike platforms nd cp flat stages so I can duck, but tht makes it worse and it's so frustrating, and I can pull off beating falco, but it's SOOO HAAARDD! I know I ought to post a vid to get a better, more specific response in particular for myself, but I can't right now o.o suggestions?

Yeah, it might actually be better to go for stages that aren't so flat. Wide, flat areas give Falco room to pressure with lasers from afar with ease. Even if you duck or Magnet, you're not getting any closer to approaching him, you're going to have to move eventually.

In the event that he pulls off a chaingrab, flat ground means there's nothing to interrupt it, which can be especially bad near the edge of course... Try stages like Brinstar or Jungle Japes if you can, I think Ness does a bit better in those places against Falco.

 

[Eagleye893]

Also, @PIE's concerns about falco, Try to pick a stage which doesn't have too much platform interference on the main part of the stage. Brinstar is good b/c all the platforms are placed around parts of the stage and not in a spot where your jumps can just conveniently reach with ease. The reason behind this is that Ness' FH can go just over Falco's lasers if he SH's (IIRC) and you just need to approach safely from there. Another thing is that drop-down aerials aren't as promising against Falco. His BAir and NAir (I think?) Are really good at harassing people who are on platforms. Also UAir, but not as much. BF and Yoshi's are terrible for Ness against falco for the reason that Falco essentially has complete control over the stage and your movements if he gets in the right spot. He could either laser or bait you or camp depending on the percent/stock lead. On Yoshi's, the only way to approach super safely is to either walk forward and perfect shield every single laser (difficult) or come from above, which I already described as less safe because of Falco's BAir and possibly his UAir. On BF, Falco can pick a spot around the platform on either side of the stage and just bait and spam to his heart's content. You can't do anything on him with that platform above him (even if it's only partially) unless you have absolute perfect spacing... and of course the same case with the lasers and dumb.

SV is an exception stage, IMO. You just need to know how to play it right.

Your aim in the early part of the game is to get falco to a high percent as he fishes for grabs GRADUALLY. You can't really force hits on him if he's only going for a grab and being super safe about it. If anything, it's better to just get yourself up to 40% by taking laser hits and other hits so that he can't CG you and then continue from there. I bet everyone knows this by now, but just reassuring.

If he goes for the CG > Spike, be sure to SDI that stuff. Flick the C-Stick up and in toward the stage and move the control stick from up to left (I think that's what Mr. Doom's SDI vid had described, but idk). Also, TECH EVERY DAIR SO THAT YOU STAND IN PLACE. You have more of a chance to get some damage on him than if you were to roll. In fact, tech-rolls give him a chance to punish.

 

[P.I.E.]

Thanks guys, that helps a lot!