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No, this is not written by me. Just some of the opposite theories to counteract. I'd like to know why Fox is so easy please.TKD said:I didn't post this to ask what the matchup odds are. Fox is better than Snake, G&W and Falco against Meta Knight, all of which you board fanatics call "even matchups".
MK vs Fox analysis...
-In the air.
Metaknight below Fox:
MK is in a dangerous position below Fox. If MK takes the air, Fox's dair beats all of MK's aerials more than half the time. Dair drags him into the ground by following DI which allows Fox to follow up. If MK decides to stay grounded and Fox baits his shield once, his shield is too bad compared to other characters and Fox's aerials can go through it (shinestalling is Fox's baiting tool). Spotdodging doesn't stall long enough for Fox's nair to miss, since he can fastfall at any time he's willing. Oh, and if MK moves away, Fox can fastfall avoiding him, while airdodging if he wants.
-Metaknight above Fox:
MK's fair and bair hit to the sides and have smaller hitboxes downwards than upwards. Dair's hitbox lasts little and he can't dair as quickly as he can upair. Fox can jump towards MK and nair, which always works unless MK airdodges, which is the best he can do in that situation (besides Mach Tornado) and only ends up in no one hurt but in no advantage for MK.
-Mach Tornado issues:
Fox has none. He quickly pops up out of tornadoes and he can either beat them from above or stall them out.
-Shuttle loop issues:
Fox falls quickly and his dair beats shuttle loop if MK is too close horizontally (like G&W, except Fox's dair is quicker), if MK is too far horizontally, Fox can go for the edge or shinestall a bit (he can always shinestall a bit, by the way).
-Downsmash:
Hard to hit for MK, punished if shielded, and nair beats it if Fox falls towards MK.
-Camping, stalling:
MK has trouble dair camping without getting naired all of a sudden, Fox can actually rely on safe shinestalling and making MK rush to him via lasers (which are always connecting and replenish his moves btw).
Plus Fox can do all of the generic nair/dair to uptilt/dash attack stuff on MK. As far as I've seen, MK and fox can both KO from above 80% from a smash, but MK has to go through the trouble of successfully edgeguarding, while Fox only has to wait for MK to respawn and kick him a couple more times. Fox has a relatively easier time stringing moves together by the way, so a 1 stock advantage easily gets to 1 stock adv plus MK at around 50% (from one string of hits, example nair to uptilt x1 or x2 to downthrow to nair). Both characters can string attacks effectively, I think Fox does it more effectively at lower percentages, while MK does it better at middle %, but strings are still not a guarantee above mid percentages.
Fox vs MK is easier than a MK ditto. G&W/Falco/Snake vs MK is HARDER. Unrelliable KO'ing as G&W, lack of options as Falco, lack of not getting shuttle looped to death as Snake.
I'm the best MK player in Tijuana, Mexico and go even against DSF (I can't say I'm as good as him, because he seems to do much better against other people). I know my MK ditto gameplay and I know why I started playing Fox. I would like to know what people think about Fox as a secondary because of this breakthrough, not if people think he loses to them or beats them, which I don't need confirmation of. This thread seems to have gotten only replies of either frustrated Fox players that hate their own character, people who <<a) play b) hate c) all of the above>> Metaknight, or from Fenrir VII, the guy who's right, that people are gonna ignore because he's not a Metaknight player, I'm guessing.
My post was about Fox being a good secondary character because of a couple of his matchups, not about asking for reassurance to know if Fox beats them or not. I tried to EXPLAIN this. If you want to ignore my post and want to keep stating "MK>everyone" (which is what you're stating since Fox is his hardest matchup), then complain in the matchup thread and let the objective ones post their thoughts.
People post like they play BOTH characters (or at least ONE OF THEM), and like they actually win tournaments based on their "thoughts". Not knowledge, because for you to know something, it should be true, right? Unless I'm wrong...oh wait...I'm the one who makes sense here. I can't be wrong.
Diddy Kong only beats him in FD. Yoshi in other counterpicks too, maybe. Outside their counterpick, MK has the upper hand.Diddy and Yoshi are MK's worst matchups.
Fox is easy.
Eh, don't really want to get into a big arguement. The statement about Yoshi is wrong however. He can hold his ground well even in Platform Heavy Stages (Excluding Lylat Cruise). He also has an advantage on Pokemon Stadium 1, and several Heavy Stage Counterpicks.Those two only beat him in FD. Yoshi in Smashville too, maybe. He can probably space an inevitable spike from a grab release there too. Outside their counterpick, MK has the upper hand.
We really don't put that much support into the Fair Spike..... You shouldn't either. It's Spacing dependent so you won't have it set it up 100% of the timeFixed my statement. You should make a thread about those stages, mmac. I still don't understand how Yoshi has heavy stage counterpicks against MK, besides the ones where he can actually space for that KO to be possible.
Shaya, did I miss something?THE OVERVIEW
8:2 Major Advantage
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon
Link
7:3 Advantage
Sonic
Snake
Samus
Diddy Kong
Charizard
Ike
Bowser
Minor advantage 55:45
R.O.B
5:5 Even
Mario
Squirtle
Peach
Yoshi
Ice Climbers
Ness
Lucas
Toon Link
Olimar
Jigglypuff
Metaknight
King Dedede
Wolf
4:6 Slight Disadvantage
Falco
Sheik
Pit
35:65 Disadvantage
Marth
3:7 Disadvantage
Kirby
Donkey Kong
Game and Watch
Luigi
Zelda
Ivysaur
Lucario
Wario
2:8 Major disadvantage
Zero Suit Samus
1:9 HUGE disadvantage
Pikachu
Hey, hey, keep the insults to a minimal if at all. O=<The fox boards are full of zealous idiots.
They say they have even match ups or BETTER with almost every single top and high tier character.
They also like to bring up 'potential' mind games into their matchup discussions. It is not worth your time truly listening to them.
Except that when we do post move analysis and comparative advantage in terms of who has greater priority, approach options, ease of killing, etc, etc, it goes ignored in favor of "Well, ____ can...against Fox."The fox boards are full of zealous idiots.
They say they have even match ups or BETTER with almost every single top and high tier character.
They also like to bring up 'potential' mind games into their matchup discussions. It is not worth your time truly listening to them.
Except that you did absolutely no convincing except some vague statements with no backup behind them. No frame data, no practical application, not even any theory. Just "This is how it is. Lulz. K."The Fox boards is full of crack heads. I tried to convince them...but no way. 70:30 vs Snake lol
Why? The burden of proof is on you. All I see is "lulz no way" with no explanation. I'm not set on the idea that the matchup is even, but this isn't even a discussion. It's just ridiculous, and if there's not going to be any real discussion, then there's no point to this thread.LOL Metaknight has the advantage. Fox has no sound advantage over MK that it's ridiculous to think that the match up is 50:50.
Topseriously it has to be a joke..
nobody goes even with a character as broken as mk unless they are at least good characters..especially not a char like fox..whos nothing special
Actually, if a Fox correctly mixes things up, it's certainly not easy to gimp his recovery. Fox has one of the most adaptive recoveries in the game. I mean, he's nowhere near MK in recovery, but it is hard to guess out a good Fox's recovery and gimp him.Fox has a few tricks, but MK has a handful of responses and has a ridiculously easy time gimping Fox.
You're right that it's not so easy to predict how Fox is going to recover.Actually, if a Fox correctly mixes things up, it's certainly not easy to gimp his recovery. Fox has one of the most adaptive recoveries in the game. I mean, he's nowhere near MK in recovery, but it is hard to guess out a good Fox's recovery and gimp him.
lol i agree. instead of seeing reason, i seenobody goes even with mk because he is a god and CANT be beaten right?
ANYWAY, when the people who post replies like this give actual evidence, I might actually listen to them.
And as for Snake, its pretty much agreed fox is good against him...its probably more around 65:35. but we will revisit snake later.
Overzealous idiots? Thats a new one. I assume since "no one" plays fox and that this "isn't melee" he has to suck right?
Lastly, this coming from a fox main MK second, Imho its anywhere from 6:4 mk to 5:5 even.
Or not. Better punishing? no...Better punishing ability.
Only thing Fox has on MK is lasers and a few ways to stop some of his little tricks like tornado and glide attack.
.
He doesn't. It's a 4:6 disadvantage for Fox (Well, imo). That is NOT a **** match-up.So.
No update as yet of why MK supposedly ***** Fox? (expected/10)
He probably understands that, he just wants it to not be true to help the case of "don't ban MK"So..since you got it from another thread and all..it must be true right?
Dude...seriously...do you not understand that MK completely outclasses Fox?