Mk vs Fox?

[aeghrur]

Well, since the Fox boards say this is even nowdays, I'd like to know your opinions on this. Could fox be MK's worst match up? Some say the match up is even or Fox has a slight advantage. =O

 

[Skyflyer]

Diddy and Yoshi are MK's worst matchups.

Fox is easy.

 

[aeghrur]

Uh-Um

I didn't post this to ask what the matchup odds are. Fox is better than Snake, G&W and Falco against Meta Knight, all of which you board fanatics call "even matchups".

MK vs Fox analysis...
-In the air.
Metaknight below Fox:
MK is in a dangerous position below Fox. If MK takes the air, Fox's dair beats all of MK's aerials more than half the time. Dair drags him into the ground by following DI which allows Fox to follow up. If MK decides to stay grounded and Fox baits his shield once, his shield is too bad compared to other characters and Fox's aerials can go through it (shinestalling is Fox's baiting tool). Spotdodging doesn't stall long enough for Fox's nair to miss, since he can fastfall at any time he's willing. Oh, and if MK moves away, Fox can fastfall avoiding him, while airdodging if he wants.
-Metaknight above Fox:
MK's fair and bair hit to the sides and have smaller hitboxes downwards than upwards. Dair's hitbox lasts little and he can't dair as quickly as he can upair. Fox can jump towards MK and nair, which always works unless MK airdodges, which is the best he can do in that situation (besides Mach Tornado) and only ends up in no one hurt but in no advantage for MK.
-Mach Tornado issues:
Fox has none. He quickly pops up out of tornadoes and he can either beat them from above or stall them out.
-Shuttle loop issues:
Fox falls quickly and his dair beats shuttle loop if MK is too close horizontally (like G&W, except Fox's dair is quicker), if MK is too far horizontally, Fox can go for the edge or shinestall a bit (he can always shinestall a bit, by the way).
-Downsmash:
Hard to hit for MK, punished if shielded, and nair beats it if Fox falls towards MK.
-Camping, stalling:
MK has trouble dair camping without getting naired all of a sudden, Fox can actually rely on safe shinestalling and making MK rush to him via lasers (which are always connecting and replenish his moves btw).

Plus Fox can do all of the generic nair/dair to uptilt/dash attack stuff on MK. As far as I've seen, MK and fox can both KO from above 80% from a smash, but MK has to go through the trouble of successfully edgeguarding, while Fox only has to wait for MK to respawn and kick him a couple more times. Fox has a relatively easier time stringing moves together by the way, so a 1 stock advantage easily gets to 1 stock adv plus MK at around 50% (from one string of hits, example nair to uptilt x1 or x2 to downthrow to nair). Both characters can string attacks effectively, I think Fox does it more effectively at lower percentages, while MK does it better at middle %, but strings are still not a guarantee above mid percentages.

Fox vs MK is easier than a MK ditto. G&W/Falco/Snake vs MK is HARDER. Unrelliable KO'ing as G&W, lack of options as Falco, lack of not getting shuttle looped to death as Snake.

I'm the best MK player in Tijuana, Mexico and go even against DSF (I can't say I'm as good as him, because he seems to do much better against other people). I know my MK ditto gameplay and I know why I started playing Fox. I would like to know what people think about Fox as a secondary because of this breakthrough, not if people think he loses to them or beats them, which I don't need confirmation of. This thread seems to have gotten only replies of either frustrated Fox players that hate their own character, people who <<a) play b) hate c) all of the above>> Metaknight, or from Fenrir VII, the guy who's right, that people are gonna ignore because he's not a Metaknight player, I'm guessing.

My post was about Fox being a good secondary character because of a couple of his matchups, not about asking for reassurance to know if Fox beats them or not. I tried to EXPLAIN this. If you want to ignore my post and want to keep stating "MK>everyone" (which is what you're stating since Fox is his hardest matchup), then complain in the matchup thread and let the objective ones post their thoughts.

People post like they play BOTH characters (or at least ONE OF THEM), and like they actually win tournaments based on their "thoughts". Not knowledge, because for you to know something, it should be true, right? Unless I'm wrong...oh wait...I'm the one who makes sense here. I can't be wrong.

No, this is not written by me. Just some of the opposite theories to counteract. I'd like to know why Fox is so easy please.

 

[TKD]

Diddy and Yoshi are MK's worst matchups.

Fox is easy.

Diddy Kong only beats him in FD. Yoshi in other counterpicks too, maybe. Outside their counterpick, MK has the upper hand.

Fox as a character is not easy for Meta Knight. People can be, though, very much.

 

[Mmac]

Those two only beat him in FD. Yoshi in Smashville too, maybe. He can probably space an inevitable spike from a grab release there too. Outside their counterpick, MK has the upper hand.

Eh, don't really want to get into a big arguement. The statement about Yoshi is wrong however. He can hold his ground well even in Platform Heavy Stages (Excluding Lylat Cruise). He also has an advantage on Pokemon Stadium 1, and several Heavy Stage Counterpicks.

 

[TKD]

Fixed my statement. You should make a thread about those stages, mmac. I still don't understand how Yoshi has heavy stage counterpicks against MK, besides the ones where he can actually space for that KO to be possible. I shouldn't even be posting here anyway, I'm affecting the outcome of this upcoming discussion.

 

[Mmac]

Fixed my statement. You should make a thread about those stages, mmac. I still don't understand how Yoshi has heavy stage counterpicks against MK, besides the ones where he can actually space for that KO to be possible.

We really don't put that much support into the Fair Spike..... You shouldn't either. It's Spacing dependent so you won't have it set it up 100% of the time

Castle Siege - Long Lasting Walkoff section, Possible to Chaingrab Walkoff KO during Stage Changing at low Percents, and a Final Destination type Section.
Corneria - Low Ceiling and small Blastzones. Mostly Flat and Wall infinite on the Wing. Nair from Release kills at stupidly low percents near the edge.
Yoshi's Island Melee - Permanent Walkoff. Yoshi CAN Chaingrab up the hill.
Green Hill Zone - Obvious Reasons
Distant Planet - Walkoff, although not as effective as the others due to the Stage Design

tl;dr, MetaKnight is ****ed on Yoshi's Counterpick.

 

[Shaya]

The fox boards are full of zealous idiots.

They say they have even match ups or BETTER with almost every single top and high tier character.

They also like to bring up 'potential' mind games into their matchup discussions. It is not worth your time truly listening to them.

 

[Kennahh]

THE OVERVIEW
8:2 Major Advantage
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon
Link

7:3 Advantage
Sonic
Snake
Samus
Diddy Kong
Charizard
Ike
Bowser


Minor advantage 55:45
R.O.B


5:5 Even
Mario
Squirtle
Peach
Yoshi
Ice Climbers
Ness
Lucas
Toon Link
Olimar
Jigglypuff
Metaknight
King Dedede
Wolf


4:6 Slight Disadvantage
Falco
Sheik
Pit

35:65 Disadvantage
Marth

3:7 Disadvantage
Kirby
Donkey Kong
Game and Watch
Luigi
Zelda
Ivysaur
Lucario
Wario


2:8 Major disadvantage

Zero Suit Samus

1:9 HUGE disadvantage
Pikachu

Shaya, did I miss something?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The Fox boards is full of crack heads. I tried to convince them...but no way. 70:30 vs Snake lol

 

[aeghrur]

The fox boards are full of zealous idiots.

They say they have even match ups or BETTER with almost every single top and high tier character.

They also like to bring up 'potential' mind games into their matchup discussions. It is not worth your time truly listening to them.

Hey, hey, keep the insults to a minimal if at all. O=<

 

[Staco]

I played a fox today and it could be real
I had really probs with mk and snake
but beat him, but I think it wasnt a good matchup for me Oo

 

[Nic64]

fox is a relatively easy character for MK, all he really has to watch out for is staying on top of fox to reduce blaster spam and avoiding the up smash. snake on the other hand, that usually is a rather uphill battle for me against fox, not MK though.

 

[brinboy789]

lol i love how everybody who denies this theory is instead of disproving it through arguement, is insulting it.

 

[8AngeL8]

MK just needs to learn how to space this matchup, if only because Fox is almost as fast as MK. I had trouble with this one for a week, but once I had the range and timing on what Fox could do, I started beating most Foxes I played pretty easily.

 

[Kouryuu]

LOL Metaknight has the advantage. Fox has no sound advantage over MK that it's ridiculous to think that the match up is 50:50.

70:30 Metaknight IMO.

 

[-Mars-]

I main Fox and while I don't think it's even, I think it's pretty close.

You can DI up out of the tornado and dair into it from the top, in fact as long as you predict the tornado, you can just SH and dair everytime.

Fox kills MK at ridiculous percentages, with no DI, MK dies at 90% on FD from an usmash.

Usmash out of shield trades with most of MK's approaches.

Fair eats through glide attack

Fenrir or someone can explain it better than me, but Fox does have options against MK.

 

[Staco]

and fox can attack mk out of his dair, and mk cant move to this time
and he has got a combo up to 30 or 40%, which you can start with dair or dash attack
then utilt, utilt, upsmash/grab

 

[Zhamy]

The fox boards are full of zealous idiots.

They say they have even match ups or BETTER with almost every single top and high tier character.

They also like to bring up 'potential' mind games into their matchup discussions. It is not worth your time truly listening to them.

Except that when we do post move analysis and comparative advantage in terms of who has greater priority, approach options, ease of killing, etc, etc, it goes ignored in favor of "Well, ____ can...against Fox."

The Fox boards is full of crack heads. I tried to convince them...but no way. 70:30 vs Snake lol

Except that you did absolutely no convincing except some vague statements with no backup behind them. No frame data, no practical application, not even any theory. Just "This is how it is. Lulz. K."

LOL Metaknight has the advantage. Fox has no sound advantage over MK that it's ridiculous to think that the match up is 50:50.

Why? The burden of proof is on you. All I see is "lulz no way" with no explanation. I'm not set on the idea that the matchup is even, but this isn't even a discussion. It's just ridiculous, and if there's not going to be any real discussion, then there's no point to this thread.

You cannot assume that just because a character is not in the upper echelons of oft-seen play that it is impossible for them to play well against higher placed characters. (Case in point - Yoshi and Diddy.)

 

[Affinity]

MK's range and gimping ability puts it in his favor.

 

[kailo34ce]

seriously it has to be a joke..

nobody goes even with a character as broken as mk unless they are at least good characters..especially not a char like fox..whos nothing special

 

[Fenrir VII]

seriously it has to be a joke..

nobody goes even with a character as broken as mk unless they are at least good characters..especially not a char like fox..whos nothing special

Top
Meta Knight
Snake
King Dedede
Mr. Game & Watch
Falco
R.O.B.

High
Marth
Wario
Lucario
Donkey Kong
Diddy
Pikachu
Ice Climbers
Kirby
Pit
Wolf

Middle
Toon Link
Olimar
Fox
Zelda
Zero Suit Samus
Bowser
Luigi
Peach
Ike
Shiek

Low
Lucas
Ness
Mario
Pokémon Trainer
Samus
Yoshi
Sonic
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Link
Captain Falcon



oooooookay then. : )

 

[bludhoundz]

This is not an even matchup.

MK is at a clear advantage.

Fox has a few tricks, but MK has a handful of responses and has a ridiculously easy time gimping Fox.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Fox has a few tricks, but MK has a handful of responses and has a ridiculously easy time gimping Fox.

Actually, if a Fox correctly mixes things up, it's certainly not easy to gimp his recovery. Fox has one of the most adaptive recoveries in the game. I mean, he's nowhere near MK in recovery, but it is hard to guess out a good Fox's recovery and gimp him.

 

[da K.I.D.]

MK has the advantage on everyone,

i say this all the time, so ill say it again

Lack of matchup knowledge counters everybody

 

[bludhoundz]

Actually, if a Fox correctly mixes things up, it's certainly not easy to gimp his recovery. Fox has one of the most adaptive recoveries in the game. I mean, he's nowhere near MK in recovery, but it is hard to guess out a good Fox's recovery and gimp him.

You're right that it's not so easy to predict how Fox is going to recover.

If he recovers very linearly and predictably, MK will gimp him more than half the time.

If he recovers smart, it won't be nearly that often. But it will still happen, simply because MK has the tools to hit him while recovering, and you can't win a guessing game 100% of the time.

 

[__V]

It's 6-4. NOBODY goes even with MK. Fox is just one of the few characters who can annoy the crap out of MK.

 

[M@v]

nobody goes even with mk because he is a god and CANT be beaten right?

ANYWAY, when the people who post replies like this give actual evidence, I might actually listen to them.


And as for Snake, its pretty much agreed fox is good against him...its probably more around 65:35. but we will revisit snake later.

Overzealous idiots? Thats a new one. I assume since "no one" plays fox and that this "isn't melee" he has to suck right?

Lastly, this coming from a fox main MK second, Imho its anywhere from 6:4 mk to 5:5 even.

 

[brinboy789]

nobody goes even with mk because he is a god and CANT be beaten right?

ANYWAY, when the people who post replies like this give actual evidence, I might actually listen to them.


And as for Snake, its pretty much agreed fox is good against him...its probably more around 65:35. but we will revisit snake later.

Overzealous idiots? Thats a new one. I assume since "no one" plays fox and that this "isn't melee" he has to suck right?

Lastly, this coming from a fox main MK second, Imho its anywhere from 6:4 mk to 5:5 even.

lol i agree. instead of seeing reason, i see

OMG no way MK totally has advantage over fox
MK always has advantage.

i think fox is underrated. i played a fox at a tourney expecting an easy match, but i almost lost >.<

 

[Zhamy]

So.

No update as yet of why MK supposedly ***** Fox? (expected/10)

 

[Emblem Lord]

Better range AND he attacks faster. Better pokes and better aerials. More frame traps. Fox doesn't even have any so wtf am I talking about. Better punishing ability. Better recovery. Better gimping. MK control the fight on stage and off.

Only thing Fox has on MK is lasers and a few ways to stop some of his little tricks like tornado and glide attack.

MK wins.

If Marth has advantage then you bet your a$$ MK does.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Better punishing ability.
Only thing Fox has on MK is lasers and a few ways to stop some of his little tricks like tornado and glide attack.
.

Or not. Better punishing? no...

And another thing Fox has on MK is being able to kill.. which, believe it or not is important...

Fox needs 3 or 4 combos, and he takes a stock...something which you completely ignored.

 

[brinboy789]

fox usmash kills MK @...82%................wtf lol

 

[Emblem Lord]

Fox touches MK's shield he gets up bed.

Better punishing as in more opportunities to punish and very easy to do so.

Fox isn't getting any easy combos on MK. Not when MK has more range and attacks faster.

And...how are these combos getting started?

What is Foxes easiest combo starter?

MK is a safer killer. He risks very little when he attempts to kill unlike Fox.

 

[Steel]

The Fox boards failed to even mention meta's ground game... which is amazing. Fox has lasers and an up smash (if he can land it) vs meta.. that's about it.

 

[JST]

So.

No update as yet of why MK supposedly ***** Fox? (expected/10)

He doesn't. It's a 4:6 disadvantage for Fox (Well, imo). That is NOT a **** match-up.

I personally find this a bit ridiculous. Fox has some fairly good options against MK (Which is what this TKD fellow is saying makes him a CP against MK). Dair against tornado, ability to not get gimped as hard as others, lasers, early killing, speed, combos, blabla.

The thing I find ridiculous is that some Fox players seem to overlook the fact that MK has MORE options, including options that counter Fox's options. While Fox can mix-up his recovery, in most cases, there are always two places he's gonna be aiming for - either the ledge or on the stage. MK can and will be there most of the time to intercept, and he has the speed to do so and he has very good options - dair, tornado, all of his aerials, in fact, outprioritize most of Fox's return attempts and can usually send them right back out (Although the roflcopter can sometimes break through).

Fox can dair through the nado? That's great. Just don't assume that MK's will be stupid with their tornado and fall for this every time. All MK's usually use the nado in a position where their opponent cannot retaliate.

Fox can kill MK early? Well, so can: DDD, Falco, DK, G&W, Ike, Snake, Luigi, and **** near the entire cast if certain circumstances are fulfilled (IE: They're near the edge).

Regarding speed and combos, well, that's great an all for Fox. This is what tips it a bit more for Fox. just remember that MK outranges AND outprioritizes AND outspeeds Fox in most instances.


I also would like to see a vid of an experienced MK player vs. an experienced Fox player, just to see if this stuff really holds true.

 

[brinboy789]

from the MODERN fox matchup board...MK goes even with fox. i didnt say this, the matchup thread did. also,

Metaknight-MK, arguably the Best character in the game. With good reason. All his moves are lighting fast, and Dsmash is argued to be broken with its amazing power:speed ratio. You'll find a lot of Mk's that spam Dsmash and tornado. There is not much you can do here. Nair into the top of the tornado stops it. Focus your assault aerially so you dont have to face dsmash. Your outgunned air and ground here, but your best bet is air. MK can get hit by Dair-utilt, so hope and pray you can connect. MK is somewhat light, so usmash can kill him decent. Dont even try edgeguarding, MK has the best recovery.
MORE MK TIPS(red name is the contributor of that section)
Shadowlink84:-
Oh and concerning MK.
I would have to say 65:35 MK's advantage.
The main issue is that Mk has much more range than Fox and is equal in terms of attack speed. He also has an easier time comboing and can gimp Fox very easily. Fox really needs to play defensively because if he goes on the offensive, MK will murder him each and everytime.
it is best to try and punish mistakes if possible and if Fox cannot, maintain spacing away from Mk and use the blaster to bat and frustrate MK.
Zhamy-
MK is light and very susceptible to some of Fox's most devestating combos, and dies especially early to the standard Dair->Usmash. The very beginning of the match may pose some trouble in racking up damage reliably, simply because MK is so fast and knockback at early stages won't let you effectively DI chase because of low hitstun. However, Fox does have one other big advantage, and that is his ability to camp MK. Granted, it's not as effective because of MK's speed, but laser spam will help quite a lot. Since Fox doesn't have to approach, this opens many more of his options than "Dair->Something," and makes Fox's game much less predictable. Bairs/Nairs Become amazingly useful, and DI chased Uairs at mid percents make MK fly (off the screen). Tornado is a pain to deal with, but a Dair/Nair from the top will stop it cold. The rest of MK's arsenal is still to be feared, so don't think Fox's "advantage" makes the matchup easy. Fox can beat MK, but you're going to have to play at a very high level of prediction and thinking to utilize that tactical advantage.
Fox is hampered by his poor and predictable recovery, and if you're under the stage, don't expect Fire Fox to save you. MK is a master at gimping, and you will get gimped. Varied Fox Illusions are probably your best bet for recovering, canceled, at different heights, etc. Do not try to edgeguard MK, because you will get *****. Other than that, watch out for MK's usual repetoire of quick combos and annoying gimping.
JmHS-
I usually use a hit and run tactic versus Meta.Lasers to keep at bay and dair to anything i can when he is open.If i grab him I usually do a grab attack just to get more %,and unfortanely foxs grabs dont have a safe follow up.
You cant edgeguard meta,so thats out.He can and it can be a pain.As always,be unpredictable when recovering,trying to trick him.Firefox can be very punished so if thats your only option I think is a lost stock versus meta.
Now,to kill him:The famous up smash.When he is at high % just drop shield and run upsmash.Don get predictable on that though.
Also try to be at the center of the stage most of the time.If you are colse to the edge you can eat a dsmash.
So this is a very hard matchup.As always,be patient,play safe.
RPK
Tornado information that I had posted
.Your best bet though is to approach it from the top and drop down onto it towards the eye of the tornado...You can do it with either nair or dair and sometimes even fair. Though I think your best option is Dair because the first hit gets cancel'd out and then right after the other parts of the dair make contact with Metaknight. My nairs keep getting cancel'd out most of the time. However, it still stops the tornado. If you get below him and he is low enough to you...Upsmash him out of it or if your daring enough and he is high enough, come at him with an uair...Unless you can connect with the forward smash, which can also break through. In order to break through the tornado, you have to hit metaknight himself and not the yellow...AVOID THAT AT ALL COSTS!!! DONT GET HIT BY IT!!! The thing with taking down the tornado is perfect spacing and only hitting with the attacking portion which will have the most priority. Dont put Fox in the way of it. Just hit with the tip of the attack and make sure it actually hits Metaknight.
Even if he short hops the tornado, and your close enough, you have just enough room to get close enough to the tornado without getting hit and upsmashing him out of it...And remember, 82 is his kill percent for an upsmash...


yup. not my opinion, copied and pasted directly from thread.
also

5:5 Even
Mario
Squirtle
Peach
Yoshi
Ice Climbers
Ness
Lucas
Toon Link
Olimar
Jigglypuff
Metaknight (<------)
King Dedede
Wolf

 

[Emblem Lord]

So..since you got it from another thread and all..it must be true right?

Dude...seriously...do you not understand that MK completely outclasses Fox?

 

[aeghrur]

So..since you got it from another thread and all..it must be true right?

Dude...seriously...do you not understand that MK completely outclasses Fox?

He probably understands that, he just wants it to not be true to help the case of "don't ban MK"

 

[Heroes_Never_Die]

Fox excels at punishing, but MK is a hard character to punish. Thus, Fox loses a lot of his power in this match-up. Along with Fox having a very gimpable recovery, MK easily has the advantage. This is at least 60:40 MK.