I don't know what to say.
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Mk vs Fox?
- Thread starter aeghrur
- Start date
I don't know what to say.
brinboy789
Smash Champion
have you both not read the part where i said specifically "I DID NOT MAKE THIS"? if your gonna rant on why this matchup is BS, do it on the thread, not here. that is NOT my opinion, im just posting it
Fenrir VII
Smash Master
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2005
- Messages
- 3,506
sarcasm fails with you, doesn't it?
MK isn't hard to punish, per se... Fox just has to guess something, and as MK's are not all that hard to guess, there you go.
I agree that the matchup thread neglected MK's ground game, which is much more useful than his air game in the matchup...
If MK consistently gets upB out of shield...which he doesn't always, that's simple to bait out...I mean, come on. that's not an easy punisher...and it leave him vulnerable in the occurrence of a Fox shield.
Fox has to predict something, and he can put 20% on MK fairly simply... His grab with one jab does more than 10%... so that's the low side of it. Often, you will be able to get a grab and leave it alone, so it's a free little bit of %. If he guesses something into a dair, which happens quite a lot, he automatically gets a grab out of it... do the match. Or an utilt if he wants...and later, a smash attack.
Anyways, I would post more, but I kinda don't want to right now...
M@v
Subarashii!
I made the fox matchup thread, if you got a problem say it to me. I believe its 6:4 MK, but the general agreement in the fox boards was 50:50.
Inui
Banned via Warnings
LMAO @ THIS THREAD
<3 biased character boards.
NinjaFoxX
Banned via Warnings
by that,id say 45:55 MK,scince thats the avgrage guess(but then again its not a guess if youre paying attention to the match at hand)nobody goes even with mk because he is a god and CANT be beaten right?
ANYWAY, when the people who post replies like this give actual evidence, I might actually listen to them.
And as for Snake, its pretty much agreed fox is good against him...its probably more around 65:35. but we will revisit snake later.
Overzealous idiots? Thats a new one. I assume since "no one" plays fox and that this "isn't melee" he has to suck right?
Lastly, this coming from a fox main MK second, Imho its anywhere from 6:4 mk to 5:5 even.
what is, Dair...
TKD
Smash Lord
It doesn't matter how fast your dair is if your opponent's nair outprioritizes it. MK wins in the ground and Fox wins in the air, Fox's objective in that matchup is to bait MK into jumping. And Marth is a nightmare, he's twice as hard as MK for Fox. Against MK you're actually trading hits, KOs, predictions (unless he's not great, I can 3-stock an average MK as Fox). While vs Marth...the entire match is uphill.
SCOTU
Smash Hero
Please do not group all of the fox boards together.
We are not all morons.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199277
We are not all morons.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199277
Mmac
Smash Lord
Wait, what direction was he taking it to the Mario/Yoshi Part?
We agreed on the Matchup BTW >_>
But yeah, some of the matchups they have listed are just insane
TKD
Smash Lord
The Fox boards should really reconsider a lot of the matchups they have listed, but Fox is really one of the best characters to play against MK, along with Snake, Falco and G&W. Yoshi and Marth can work too more or less. But I've seen what Snake, Falco and G&W do to MK and Fox just seems better.
Nic64
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2003
- Messages
- 1,725
I'll buy into snake, fox does have some good tools on him, MK and GW...no. he can KO them early, but he gets manhandled in everything by them otherwise, and both characters are going to be problematic to hit that early killing up smash with if they don't play stupid.
bludhoundz
Smash Ace
Hi, Fox does okay in the matchup until Meta Knight stops being a moron. So it's 5:5 at the low levels and 6.5:3.5 at a decent level and Fox should never win at the high level.
Panix
Smash Ace
Fox < Metaknight.
Ulevo
Smash Master
This is so stupid. What's next? Donkey Kong has an advantage over Dedede?
an average meta knight goes even with a good Fox
Both players being equal in skill, id give it to Meta 6-4 , minimum
Fox is a great top tier fighter, i think thats why the Fox boards get carried away sometimes with matchups.
Although im playing more and more Falco these days, Fox feels easier to fight Metaknight with.
Both players being equal in skill, id give it to Meta 6-4 , minimum
Fox is a great top tier fighter, i think thats why the Fox boards get carried away sometimes with matchups.
Although im playing more and more Falco these days, Fox feels easier to fight Metaknight with.
M@v
Subarashii!
im surrounded by idiots....re arranging the matchup guide the way it SHOULD BE.
Levitas
the moon
When did all the melee ness players pick up brawl fox? I want in on the new brand of _____ secretly counters all high/top tiers.
Seriously though, fox loses.
Seriously though, fox loses.
Deoxys
Smash Lord
I think the "should never win" is an exaggeration, but yes, it's lopsided in MK's favor.
technomancer
Smash Champion
- Joined
- May 17, 2006
- Messages
- 2,053
If that's true, then what's your approach against Fox? Your air game is weak and should not be used except in advantageous situations (i.e. recovery, etc). If you stay on the ground your approaches are basically spacing unpublishable moves (dtilt, dsmash) and trying not to get D-aired. You need to keep pressure to avoid lasers, but Fox can just space back and que up a safe illusion to safely poke at you while you're poking back. If you start predicting it you'll be more open to D-air.
Fox answers a lot of MK's questions, kills at low %s, and isn't totally outclassed. MK needs to apply pressure to take away lasers->u-smash as a valid threat and Fox can capitalize.
Fox answers a lot of MK's questions, kills at low %s, and isn't totally outclassed. MK needs to apply pressure to take away lasers->u-smash as a valid threat and Fox can capitalize.
Nic64
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2003
- Messages
- 1,725
I'd like some of whatever drug you're on hahahaha
NinjaFoxX
Banned via Warnings
i think its called "making your disadvantage an advantage"
M@v
Subarashii!
Pit has a slight advantage vs fox because he can out camp him and force him to approach. Fox definitely has an advantage on diddy. Without his banana's, diddy is mediocre at best. Well, its extremely easy with fox to running grab diddy's bananas, and more importantly you can shine them and make them yours. Diddy falls apart with no bananas.
It isn't very hard to edgeguard diddy if you force them to up-b....I will admit side b is a royal pain. /end
It isn't very hard to edgeguard diddy if you force them to up-b....I will admit side b is a royal pain. /end
Ulevo
Smash Master
"What's your approach against Fox?" Um... Anything? Have you even played Brawl?
"Meta Knights air game is weak"? "Shouldn't be used except in advantageous positions" (insert roflecopter here)? This isn't stand up comedy. By the way, that so called "space back" theory ends once Fox reaches the edge of the stage. And illusion isn't safe at all. This isn't Falco you're talking about.
The only things Fox has to keep up with Meta Knight is a ranged projectile for small damage building, sufficient speed and a very good USmash. That's it. He gets totally mauled vs Meta Knight in every other area of gameplay.
I'm starting to think people are getting these match up theories from fortune cookies, it's that bad now. Seriously.
JhMS
Smash Journeyman
Please dont generalise.Not all the people of the Fox boards overhype him T_T.
****,we have a really bad reputation.But still,dont generalise please.
I still cant believe how people think Meta is even.
****,we have a really bad reputation.But still,dont generalise please.
I still cant believe how people think Meta is even.
NinjaFoxX
Banned via Warnings
it could be worse...we could be the Sonic/Yoshi boards
still,in all honesty we know fox isint teh g0d of smash anymore,but he can still hold his own against anyone(xept pika) i just want everyone to realize that fox isint mediocre,but at the same time i dont want to make everyone thinks hes top notch or anything
What does that mean? >_>
At least we realize when we don't say "mindgames son" in a match up discussion anymore.
We realize we're at a big disadvantage against MK, GameNwatch, and Wario okay? >_>
Hey...I like those boards. They realize their characters isn't better than they really are. Mmac is just trying to advance Yoshi's metagame...
The strange part is alot of those generalizations are usually from pre-April.
We try to scare away new sucky, scrubby, Sonic
The main difference between us is that I want to make everyone think he's as hopeless
edit:
so yeah, mindgames, baiting and punishing aside, MK > Fox. Yes?
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
if you think sonic mainers are overhyping fanboys whydont you look at the sigs of the last 2 posters in this thread
But yea, MK>Fox
he doesnt have it quite as bad though, cause fox only gets ***** in the butt, as opposed to people like luigi and link, who get ***** in the butt, eyes, nose, and ears.
But yea, MK>Fox
he doesnt have it quite as bad though, cause fox only gets ***** in the butt, as opposed to people like luigi and link, who get ***** in the butt, eyes, nose, and ears.
brinboy789
Smash Champion
this is NOT made by me;
MK vs Fox analysis...
-In the air.
Metaknight below Fox:
MK is in a dangerous position below Fox. If MK takes the air, Fox's dair beats all of MK's aerials more than half the time. Dair drags him into the ground by following DI which allows Fox to follow up. If MK decides to stay grounded and Fox baits his shield once, his shield is too bad compared to other characters and Fox's aerials can go through it (shinestalling is Fox's baiting tool). Spotdodging doesn't stall long enough for Fox's nair to miss, since he can fastfall at any time he's willing. Oh, and if MK moves away, Fox can fastfall avoiding him, while airdodging if he wants.
-Metaknight above Fox:
MK's fair and bair hit to the sides and have smaller hitboxes downwards than upwards. Dair's hitbox lasts little and he can't dair as quickly as he can upair. Fox can jump towards MK and nair, which always works unless MK airdodges, which is the best he can do in that situation (besides Mach Tornado) and only ends up in no one hurt but in no advantage for MK.
-Mach Tornado issues:
Fox has none. He quickly pops up out of tornadoes and he can either beat them from above or stall them out.
-Shuttle loop issues:
Fox falls quickly and his dair beats shuttle loop if MK is too close horizontally (like G&W, except Fox's dair is quicker), if MK is too far horizontally, Fox can go for the edge or shinestall a bit (he can always shinestall a bit, by the way).
-Downsmash:
Hard to hit for MK, punished if shielded, and nair beats it if Fox falls towards MK.
-Camping, stalling:
MK has trouble dair camping without getting naired all of a sudden, Fox can actually rely on safe shinestalling and making MK rush to him via lasers (which are always connecting and replenish his moves btw).
again, this was made by somebody else on the fox boards.
MK vs Fox analysis...
-In the air.
Metaknight below Fox:
MK is in a dangerous position below Fox. If MK takes the air, Fox's dair beats all of MK's aerials more than half the time. Dair drags him into the ground by following DI which allows Fox to follow up. If MK decides to stay grounded and Fox baits his shield once, his shield is too bad compared to other characters and Fox's aerials can go through it (shinestalling is Fox's baiting tool). Spotdodging doesn't stall long enough for Fox's nair to miss, since he can fastfall at any time he's willing. Oh, and if MK moves away, Fox can fastfall avoiding him, while airdodging if he wants.
-Metaknight above Fox:
MK's fair and bair hit to the sides and have smaller hitboxes downwards than upwards. Dair's hitbox lasts little and he can't dair as quickly as he can upair. Fox can jump towards MK and nair, which always works unless MK airdodges, which is the best he can do in that situation (besides Mach Tornado) and only ends up in no one hurt but in no advantage for MK.
-Mach Tornado issues:
Fox has none. He quickly pops up out of tornadoes and he can either beat them from above or stall them out.
-Shuttle loop issues:
Fox falls quickly and his dair beats shuttle loop if MK is too close horizontally (like G&W, except Fox's dair is quicker), if MK is too far horizontally, Fox can go for the edge or shinestall a bit (he can always shinestall a bit, by the way).
-Downsmash:
Hard to hit for MK, punished if shielded, and nair beats it if Fox falls towards MK.
-Camping, stalling:
MK has trouble dair camping without getting naired all of a sudden, Fox can actually rely on safe shinestalling and making MK rush to him via lasers (which are always connecting and replenish his moves btw).
again, this was made by somebody else on the fox boards.
So why are you posting it? It's obviously full of wrong.
brinboy789
Smash Champion
because it is relevant to the topic, and thats what somebody thought.
Levitas
the moon
MK below fox in the air means that the MK will move to the side and either use a mach tornado if the fox is too high up w/o a second jump, catch them on their way down with a fair/bair, shuttle loop (especially effective if MK is grounded), or if things look bad, concede the ADVANTAGE that he currently has and let fox land by moving out of the way. Up B out of shield takes care of any shinestalling issues the MK might have, as it works very well out of shield.
Once again, MK doesn't space directly above or below characters, ideally it's a 45ish degree angle, frequently a blindspot in other characters. The Dair outranges any fox option on the ground, and you space to hit with it, you don't spam it. In the air, fox has fewer options below metaknight, but since MK has to land sometime, he can usually risk a DJ fair without it being a terrible idea. Unless it's close to the ground/edge or offstage, MK will probably avoid combat here, and some options for him to descend with are glides, aerial control away from the stage to a glide to the edge, and even jumping until he's far from the stage to get back down to the level of the stage. Once he's descended safely, he's back at a neutral stance with fox.
Fox cannot recover through a mach tornado with the illusion nor with the firefox. If the fox SDIs up and out, you have to realize that the MK can rise just as fast as the fox in most scenarios. Dair doesn't beat a mach tornado, especially spaced correctly. Either way, the fox takes some damage and is left above MK, which as I already described, is a disadvantageous place for fox to be.
Good point. Fox wins granted the MK misses.
conversely, it's a fast move, a much better option than any single move fox has if they're both on the ground, and MK won't be using it if Fox is in the air. It's a great KO move. Now the fact that you're claiming his dsmash is bad, you're wrong. If you're basing the matchup on the false assumption that all MKs unconditionally spam dsmash, you're wrong. Expect more Dtilts on shield, if anything.
MK doesn't Dair camp against fox. Remember in melee? Marth could play with a "camp in their face" philosophy. MK has the same thing going for him. Spaced dtilts and ftilts, occasional fsmashes on shield, dashgrabs, and mach tornados are always great options to approach with. And there are always autocancelled fairs and bairs to supplement the groundgame MK has with.
Fox needs to be relatively far away to be lasering safely, and MK is fast enough to not let him have that much stage for more than a few seconds. Don't expect lasers to give you more of an advantage than forcing MK to approach, because in terms of damage and move decay, the difference is minimal.
NinjaFoxX
Banned via Warnings
Yes. in the end i wont care as long as i can defeat my opponent
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
what?
Might I ask where this conception came from?
The Sonic and yoshi boards are among the more realistic boards out there.
Frankly, I cannot help but be amazed people still get caught into thinking this is March.
Hell you have the Fox boards thinking the match is even and I have seen stupid topics like MK having weaknesses
Hey if you wish to think in such a way go ahead, but kindly don't let your opinion be known cause its rather...stupid and unfounded.
Mmac
Smash Lord
I am hurt, very hurt.
Ily Mmac. Dun mind him.