MK? bad matchup? THIS IS MADNESS (now with overswarm NAMING MK's weaknesses! LOL)

[brinboy789]

madness? THIS IS SPARTA!

I definitely feel Snake has the advantage on Metaknight. Metaknight has some nasty things on him. When Snake is in the air, Metaknight's aerial pressure can really put the hurt on him. However, on the ground I think Snake has a definite advantage, and it's very possible to avoid getting in the air for most of the match. Snake's camping is really hard for any character without a projectile to stop, and Metaknight is no exception.

My general gameplay vs Meta is pretty simple but very effective. I force Metaknight to approach using grenades, and when he approaches I do one of several things.

1. I dash backwards, turn around and Ftilt. If it doesn't hit, it keeps him away.
2. I dash grab, since a lot of people run at Snake and shield, expecting the Ftilt.
3. I Snakedash. Snakedashing beats every approach in the game, and it's nearly impossible to punish if you don't expect it.
4. And the obvious, Ftilt.

There's not much Metaknight can do about this strategy besides play really perfect and capitalize perfectly when Snake is in the air. Even then, it takes WAY longer for Metaknight to kill Snake, it's really unbalanced in the amount of effort Metaknight has to do compared to Snake. THEN you have Snake's grab game, which normally leads me to around 40-50 damage, at the very least normally 30 damage, and if I'm REALLY off, only 12 ish.

And even though Snake gets hurt in the air by Meta, he has a ton of options to counter with, more so than other characters. He can hold grenades, do a momentum switch, drop C4, mix in random Bairs, Nairs and even Dairs.

In terms of edgeguarding obviously Meta wins, but Snake can edgeguard Meta perhaps the best out of any character, or at least close. Bait him to use his up B, double jump C4 explosion kills at around 80 something. It's really silly. You can edgehog, hope they use their up B which 90% of the time they do, and do a ledgehop Bair. At high percents, this is an instant kill since Bair is so strong.

This next one is a Jesiah original strat . Grab the ledge, let him use his Up B then jump towards him and airdodge the glide attack. They will have to land on the stage, which is a free Dair. Dair is the ultimate punishing move, and because it does I think around 28% damage and has incredible knockback, I've seen it kill starting at ridiculously low percents, like 50 (before the first hit of the dair)

Also, even on most counterpicks I feel Snake has the advantage. It's true that Metaknight can outmanuever Snake on most stages, but on some he stands no chance. Take Norfair for example. If Snake starts off with the lead, there is no way Meta can approach him on the bottom most platform. It's too small, and shieldcamping combined with Usmash spam almost always results in Meta getting swatted away. Not to mention, most of the time they try to tornado and you just shield it, grab and Dthrow. Anywhere they go on that platform is a free Ftilt for Snake after the Dthrow. It's not hard for Snake to start with the lead either. If Meta gets the lead it can be a problem, since the platforms are nice for him. Even then he's bound to get hit by SOME projectile though.

Castle Siege- Advantage: Snake. It's so big Snake's never gonna die, there are so many places to camp on that stage. It's easy for him to manuever also as oppose to other smaller stages.

Luigi's Mansion- Advantage: Snake. This is debatable obviously, but he locks Meta down with Grenades horribly in the lower section, not to mention when the stage is completely broken it's like another FD which is hell for Meta vs Snake.

Corneria- Advantage: Snake. Meta stands no chance here.

Rainbow Cruise- Advantage: Metaknight. Just due to manueverability and how badly Snake can get gimped here, I don't think Snake has a good chance of winning.

Pokemon Stadium 1- Advantage: Snake. Stage is a bit like Castle Siege in the way it plays I feel. Big, Snake can manuever well and camp certain parts really well.

Pirate Ship- Advantage: Snake. One of the ultimate camping stages for Snake, and Meta dies pretty easily off the top. Needs to avoid the water though.

All neutrals Snake wins on, Battlefield is the closest Metaknight gets to winning, and even then if he gets caught on a platform in a Dthrow it's an auto infinite if Snake doesn't mess up, so that's just another advantage for Snake.

Really, I don't think Meta does that well vs Snake. I think it's 60-40 in Snake's favor, even though a better Metaknight can definitely beat a better Snake.

This matchup reminds me of Sheik vs Marth in Melee, but only a bit opposite. Sheik vs Marth at lower levels of play put Sheik at a huge advantage, but as the skill levels increased the matchup became more even. I think for Snake vs MK, Snake definitely wins at higher levels of play if the Snake is good at camping and abuses all of Snake's traits that make him Snake.

This brings me to another point. Many people are beginning to think Snake is not nearly as good as Metaknight because he can be edgeguarded well, he has problems in the air and some other silly weaknesses.

Fact is, Snake is not that far behind Metaknight at all. Metaknight can't deal 21% damage with a very, very, very broken attack. When Snake Dthrows someone it's automatically 12, usually around 30 %, and if you're good on average between 40-50 damage. Metaknight can't do this.

His killing power makes it so easy for him to get kills, and while Meta doesn't have to work THAT hard to get kills, Snake's ease of kills is just such a help. Combine that with the fact that Snake's traps are nearly impossible to stop, and you have yourself what is possibly the best character. An example for you all.

If someone is at 110% and they've just gotten up from the ledge or for some reason they're near the ledge, 80% chance they are dead, maybe 85%. All you have to do is Ftilt their shield once. If they roll, Utilt. If they stand there, grab and that is GUARANTEED free KO. If they jump, Utilt. There's just nothing they can do to escape besides try and dash grab you, but you can't shield in your initial dash animation so Utilt beats that too. If you grab and Dthrow and they are near the edge, there is nothing they can do to escape a Dthrow.

It just looks like Metaknight is better than Snake because he's easier to use, and he's nearly unpunishable. It doesn't matter though. Snake is much more punishable than Metaknight, but his advantages far outweigh his ability to be punished, and he has much much more room for punishment than MK does anyways. Snake lives forever, he doesn't care about taking 50-75% damage from being edgeguarded. MK can't be edgegaurded well, but it doesn't matter due to how much quicker he gets killed than Snake.

I am in the opinion that Snake is the best game, but people are blinded by MK's ease of use. Example: Snake can't go around Ftilting everything like MK can, because Meta's is unpunishable and with some characters you can punish Snake's. He still has options though that are BETTER than MK's. Instead of Ftilting the shield, you grab. So, Meta has Ftilted the shield and gotten away unpunished, and now Snake has a grab which can lead to death at higher percents or ridiculous damage at lower percents. Advantage? Snake.



This is Jesiah, I'm done here.

O.o. discuss. agree or disagree?

LOL:
Metaknight has a few serious issues with his gameplay.

1. Incredibly laggy f/b air attacks

I know, you're thinking "they have zero lag". This is true, but only AFTER the attack is finished. His attacks take forever when he just throws them out due to the multiple hits they have. This can be easily abused by people that have large disjointed hitboxes (Dedede, Marth, Ike, etc.) by baiting MK's attacks and then attacking during the duration of the attack. Characters with really good rolls (such as Lucario or Pit) can simply roll behind MK and capitalize from there with a quick attack.

This requires a lot of patience and excellent spacing, but it works just fine. I do just as well with my Lucario as I do with my ROB, and my Lucario is very unpolished. This is simply because I bait attacks and roll behind MK and pressure him from there.

2. MK is incredibly light

It is very easy to KO MK off the top if you have the right attacks. Make sure you SAVE your best aerial killing moves against MK. Keep in mind that every time you grab someone and hit them out of the grab with the A button, each individual hit recharges your other moves! It only takes 9, so two or three grabs can recharge everything.

Characters like Donkey Kong can destroy Metaknight easily by only using two moves. Their high priority damage dealer (in DK's case, a back-air) and a powerful launcher (for DK, his d-smash). Other characters don't have it quite as easy, but my game against MK is generally just racking up damage and playing keep-away until he is at a killing %, and then I try to throw out an up-smash or other aerial killing move.

It never ceases to surprise Metaknight's when they die at a mere 50 or 60% because they DI up and towards you out of instinct. This is not the best DI for getting out of a vertical killing move; in fact it is almost the worst. Knowing that this is how most Metaknight players will DI, make sure you challenge them in the air. The higher you can get him in the air, the easier it will be for him to die. ROB's neutral air can take hom out as low as 50% if MK is recovering from too high above.

3. Metaknight's Recovery is limited

MK's recovery is AMAZING. He can ALWAYS get back if he's alive unless the player messes up. However, that doesn't mean it isn't limited. His recovery is very laggy unless he grabs the edge or cancels the lag with a glide attack RIGHT AS HE HITS THE GROUND. Knowing this, you can space yourself to where he can't glide attack straight into you and follow up from there. You KNOW he's going to waste time glide attacking nothing to cancel the lag; if he doesn't you can run up and grab him anyway. I generally just launch MK into the air out of a throw after he recovers and attempt to get him to use his up+b again somehow and repeat the process. This also helps in challenging MK in the air. MK will rarely avoid you when he is in a glide, so run up to him and use a high priority move (such as ROB's nair, Dedede's forward air, DK's bair, etc.). At worst, you'll both hit each other, but that doesn't matter because you're attack will be stronger than his glide attack and you'll have a much greater chance to KO metaknight from the air.

4. Metaknight has to commit to everything

Metaknight can't trick you. If he does an aerial, he has to commit to it. Knowing this, you should know that you can control the flow of the match by baiting Metaknight's moves. The closest thing to a "mindgame" that Metaknight has is "when will he throw out his tornado". Metaknight will always approach you because he has to, so you're playing rock-paper-scissors with somebody that shows his hand on 2 instead of 3. Use that to your advantage and don't attack until after you see him doing something.


by: overswarm. head of the MK ban commitee

 

[M15t3R E]

Jesiah hardly spoke at all of the many, many advantages MK has over Snake.

Snake mainers don't see these advantages that Snake supposedly has over MK.
Jesiah's post is filled with some bias, but mostly exaggeration.

 

[aeghrur]

Discuss in the tactical boards thread about banning MK or not, your arguments will be of more use there.

 

[brinboy789]

many, many advantages MK has over Snake.

i would like to hear them. dont mention gimping i already know that

 

[bludhoundz]

I think the amount of % you can build with Snake's downthrow is being exaggerated here.

I've seen many tournament videos of good Snakes v good other players, and a lot of the time Snake only gets 12% out of it. It can lead to more, but it isn't guaranteed. I've only seen a few videos where Snake really packs a punch with the dthrow, and it's usually when he has a setup (c4 / mine nearby), so he can easily predict where his opponent will go and ftilt.

I think MK has an advantage on Snake. I don't see how a character that ONLY has a grounded advantage beats a character that has a significant aerial and offstage advantage. Even Snake's grounded advantage is questionable. Snake and MK have very nearly the same range, but MK is faster, and has more quick options. Snake cannot afford to miss. MK can whiff half of his moves and still win the match, because of the minimal cooldown on pretty much all of his moves.

 

[K 2]

MK can gimp Snake to the moon and back. Once snake is off the stage and in the air trying to recovery, he has basically lost the stock if MK edgeguards properly.

 

[brinboy789]

MK can gimp Snake to the moon and back. Once snake is off the stage and in the air trying to recovery, he has basically lost the stock if MK edgeguards properly.

good snakes always use cypher away from the opponent all the way up to avoid gimping and getting grabbed.

 

[K 2]

good snakes always use cypher away from the opponent all the way up to avoid gimping and getting grabbed.

If he's using the cipher away from me, he going away from the stage. I don't understand what your saying...

 

[laki]

How does Metaknight beat snake?

D-tilt. SERIOUSLY.

If meta correctly spaces d-tilt than snake has no good option besides retreating.

I know this is oversimplefying things a bit but metas d-tilt is a HUGE bonus for meta in the matchup.

If snake shields, by the time he drops his shield, meta can just follow up with whatever he feels like. Even if he shield drops a gernade, with decent spacing (doesn't even need to be really good, just not horrible), the explosion won't hit meta.

Snake is outranged on the ground by D-tilt and the last hit of f-tilt. Seriously metas tilts>>>Snakes.

Sure snake can run from meta and throw gernades but metas rushdown>>> snakes camping.

The only thing good thing snake has is snake dashing and if he does that to much, it becomes predictable.

 

[laki]

Know matter what snake does with the cypher, Meta can follow him in the air and even if he doesn't get the gimp, meta is gonna give snake a lot of percent before snake is safe.

Edit: sorry for double post

 

[PyroSpark]

good Snakes Always Use Cypher Away From The Opponent All The Way Up To Avoid Gimping And Getting Grabbed.

This This This

 

[Affinity]

This isn't new. M2K and Inui have been saying this for a while.

 

[Infinitysmash]

Jesiah knows what he's talking about and I agree with nearly every point he makes.

 

[_umbra_]

yeah, I agree with everything he said.

 

[Tenki]

I think the amount of % you can build with Snake's downthrow is being exaggerated here.

I've seen many tournament videos of good Snakes v good other players, and a lot of the time Snake only gets 12% out of it. It can lead to more, but it isn't guaranteed. I've only seen a few videos where Snake really packs a punch with the dthrow, and it's usually when he has a setup (c4 / mine nearby), so he can easily predict where his opponent will go and ftilt.

I think MK has an advantage on Snake. I don't see how a character that ONLY has a grounded advantage beats a character that has a significant aerial and offstage advantage. Even Snake's grounded advantage is questionable. Snake and MK have very nearly the same range, but MK is faster, and has more quick options. Snake cannot afford to miss. MK can whiff half of his moves and still win the match, because of the minimal cooldown on pretty much all of his moves.

Snake's D-throw is about as lethal as Ganondorf's side-B, but with more options out of it. If you don't react right away, he can U-tilt you. If you're on a platform and he has good reflexes/techreads, it's a long, painful experience.

Can MK's aerial game get past Snake's anti-aerial game? U-tilt, U-smash, retreating /RAR B-air (..? lol never seen it), thrown grenade, standing shield grab (Snake is tall enough for SHs!) etc.

I don't know, I'm just raising speculation.

MK can gimp Snake to the moon and back. Once snake is off the stage and in the air trying to recovery, he has basically lost the stock if MK edgeguards properly.

This can be/ is probably true, but just like a good Olimar or Link, I'm sure a good Snake will be able to put up a fight long before something like that can happen.

If he's using the cipher away from me, he going away from the stage. I don't understand what your saying...

In other words, Snake is far away from you, but rising really high, really fast, moving towards the stage. Even Sonic has trouble chasing after him sometimes `.`;

 

[bludhoundz]

Snake's D-throw is about as lethal as Ganondorf's side-B, but with more options out of it. If you don't react right away, he can U-tilt you. If you're on a platform and he has good reflexes/techreads, it's a long, painful experience.

Can MK's aerial game get past Snake's anti-aerial game? U-tilt, U-smash, retreating /RAR B-air (..? lol never seen it), thrown grenade, standing shield grab (Snake is tall enough for SHs!) etc.

I don't know, I'm just raising speculation.

Oh Snake's dthrow is definitely good. But to say it deals 30% on average I think is exaggerating a little. Really I haven't seen too much techchasing from Snake in lots of the Snake v anyone videos I've watched. Don't land on a platform when Snake is also on it. Not saying it won't happen, but you can control if you're going to land on a platform if he's there -- keep it rare, avoid it if possible.

MK doesn't need to be aerial against Snake to win. His ground game is nearly as good, if not as good as Snake's. His dtilt has more range than any of Snake's tilts (except 2nd hit ftilt.. ok mind readers), and it's quicker (on the uptake and the cooldown). If he is aerial, he can afford to play a bait and punish game. He can throw out multiple dairs / fairs and not get punished. Also his dash grab / dash attack go really far.

Snake is MK's hardest matchup (other than MK) without a doubt. I do not think he is a counter, though.

 

[Nic64]

I agreed with the original post until it went on the snake is underrated/the real best character tangent. snake has the advantage on MK IMO, but that's MK's only bad matchup, snake has several characters that can lay the hurt on him. he can **** a lot of characters better than anyone, but most characters that have good projectile spam are going to be able to keep him at bay and avoid a large amount of his traps at least. snake is the best defensive character in the game to me, I think he loses a lot of his edge against anyone that forces him to be aggressive. granted he still wins a lot of those matches even, but not by the broken character amount that he does on most characters that rely on close quarters combat(lol)

as for MK vs snake, I do have one stage disagreement, I think MK has the advantage on BF, snake isn't going to get a ton of opportunities to grab MK on a platform there if the MK knows it is a risk. granted, if it happens even once in a set it's a huge thing for snake, but good spacing and intelligent play should make it very unlikely, and I don't think it even deters meta from pressuring snake on platforms at all for that matter

 

[SwastikaPyle]

Brinboy, we get it. You'll cling to anything you can find that is in favor of not banning MK. You can stop now.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Ok, to everyone that for some reasons underestimates Snake's Dthrow, I'll post something I posted in another forum. It's a simple 3 step grab combo that is easy to get off at least once per match, most likely twice.

Anyways, about the Dthrow thing. Allow me to explain.

Just to make sure everyone knows a simple Snake Dthrow trap, basically you Dthrow then shield...If they do anything besides roll away, you can Ftilt or turn and Ftilt. It covers 3 out of 4 options. If they roll away, they are safe. That being said, let's get to business.

Starting @ 0%, you grab them, choke them once and Dthrow. This is 14% damage.

Now, versus people that know how to play against Snake, they are almost always going to roll away their first time, and if they don't then later in the match they are forced to roll away if you **** them with enough Dthrow, since they realize that's the only way to escape. ANYWAYS...As soon as you Dthrow you run forwards and regrab, obviously predicting their forward roll which is not hard to do at all. It is inescapable.

Choke once, lay them down. Now you're at 27% damage. 2 throws so far, and I your opponent is at 27% damage.

Now, a lot of the time because you followed them with a forward tech chase, they are going to be near the edge. When you Dthrow someone near the edge, it is an auto Ftilt, since they have nowhere to go. However, this isn't always the case since obviously they are not going to be at the edge 100% of the time, so you'll have to resort to the basic strategy...Shield when you Dthrow them, and cover 3/4 options...It's still incredible, and combine that with the fact that your opponent is now scared to roll forwards again, chances are on your side that they will either get up attack or roll behind you. And if they are at the edge, they have no choice anyways.

What comes next? Ftilt. 48% damage. Let's go over the simple steps again.

Grab, Choke, Dthrow.
Run forwards and grab, choke, Dthrow.
Shield and Ftilt accordingly.

It's not hard to do by any means, and at the very LEAST you can get this off once per match, most of the time twice.

Now I know some of you are going to say "Your opponents aren't that great so this is irrelevant." Well, I only have one truly good player here so I guess I can see what you're saying...Fact of the matter is, it doesn't matter if you're some scrub, M2K or even stupid *** Mow...You only have 4 ways to choose from, and 3 of them are covered. Doesn't matter how good you are, this works on everybody, and it's not hard to do at all.

48% damage people. With a grab combo. A simple one. This is devastating to Metaknight especially, who is not only light and gets KO'd easy by Snake, but when he finally does escape after getting Ftilted away, Snake lays down his mines/C4 and sets up. Get ***** MK, get *****.

It's really easy and it does 50% damage basically

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'm a little confused. Snake was known to have the advantage over MK for a looooooong time. In the summer it was still undisputed that Snake wins. I really wonder when ppl started to change their mind and claim that MK has the advantage. It's obvious that Snake has the advantage.

MK has no safe move against Snake. He can just use a grenade and Shield any approach MK has. The dropped grenade will exploda as soon as MK attacks, while Snake just shields it. And mortar slide or utilt beat MKs aerial approaches.

The dthrow techchase is very good. It will always follow up with at least one other move. It's 60:40 Snake's favour

 

[Deoxys]

Starting @ 0%, you grab them, choke them once and Dthrow. This is 14% damage.

Wait, at 0% you can Pummel and throw without them ever escaping? Is this true when MK grabs, too? I could have sworn you could get out at 0%.

 

[PK-ow!]

What comes next? Ftilt. 48% damage. Let's go over the simple steps again.

Grab, Choke, Dthrow.
Run forwards and grab, choke, Dthrow.
Shield and Ftilt accordingly.

It's not hard to do by any means, and at the very LEAST you can get this off once per match, most of the time twice.

Now I know some of you are going to say "Your opponents aren't that great so this is irrelevant." Well, I only have one truly good player here so I guess I can see what you're saying...Fact of the matter is, it doesn't matter if you're some scrub, M2K or even stupid *** Mow...You only have 4 ways to choose from, and 3 of them are covered. Doesn't matter how good you are, this works on everybody, and it's not hard to do at all.

It's still powerful that this *can* happen, but it's no combo. If you shield after the dthrow, they can roll behind you. Or, better yet, wait. They have *choices*. If you are fast enough to always keep up with their response - never get confused even once - then. . . well, that's a pretty good reason why you should be winning no matter what else is going on.
Unless you picked Falcon. (bawwwwwww...)

 

[Nic64]

if they roll behind you they can still be ftilted I believe, if they wait then they lose their invincibility frames and can be ftilted anyway, or utilted if they're at a high percent, sounds like a great course of action for MK! it's not guaranteed to go on very long but you should be getting *something* out of dthrow as a snake player, ftilt follow ups are not hard and combined with the throw still deal a ridiculous amount of damage.

 

[M15t3R E]

I'm a little confused. Snake was known to have the advantage over MK for a looooooong time. In the summer it was still undisputed that Snake wins. I really wonder when ppl started to change their mind and claim that MK has the advantage. It's obvious that Snake has the advantage.

MK has no safe move against Snake. He can just use a grenade and Shield any approach MK has. The dropped grenade will exploda as soon as MK attacks, while Snake just shields it. And mortar slide or utilt beat MKs aerial approaches.

The dthrow techchase is very good. It will always follow up with at least one other move. It's 60:40 Snake's favour

Get your facts straight. No one changed their mind about the MK/Snake match-up. The MK board and Snake board agreed a "loooooong time ago" that the match-up is 55/45 in MK's favor.

If you are using MK and you aren't able to approach and pummel Snake with attacks fast enough to destroy his nade strategy, then you are not a good MK.
Approaching Snake from the side in any manner is very safe. His f-tilt is not faster nor as well-ranged as your fair, tornado, or glide attack's hitboxes.
And no one complain about Snake's u-tilt. Meta Knight can approach far better from the side, so why the F would you try to approach Snake from above in the first place?
As for aerial combat, all I need to say is that if anyone thinks Snake beats MK in the air they are too ******** to even play Brawl, which is a big statement. That is all.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Btw to people that say MK's Dtilt beats Snake, I thought of a good strat to beat it. You shield the first or second Dtilt, let go of your shield for a split second then put it back up.

What this does is it shields the first hits, then powershields the next, allowing you to Ftilt immediately.

Also Mister E are you kidding me? Where are you getting your information?

Approaching Snake from the side in any manner is very safe?

You're a cool dude and all but I can't take you seriously anymore bro. Your posts aren't even making sense anymore.

And what you said about "if you're not able to pressure Snake well and rush him down you're not a good MK"

You just called Inferno Omni a bad MK. You just called Teh_Spamerer a bad MK. They don't rush, they play patient and campy w/MK...And they're both incredible players.

 

[M15t3R E]

Your posts aren't making any sense to me either. I never see MK's struggle against Snakes the way you claim they do. How is it NOT safe to approach Snake from the side? If Snake is able to cook his nade a bit and even shield your approaching attacks and f-tilt/jab/grab you afterwards, then you suck!
Good MK players don't run into Snake's shield all the time like you and others want us to believe.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Get your facts straight. No one changed their mind about the MK/Snake match-up. The MK board and Snake board agreed a "loooooong time ago" that the match-up is 55/45 in MK's favor.

Oh really? Then plx explain to me why everybody who wants MK banned says that MK has no neutral match-up's?

If you are using MK and you aren't able to approach and pummel Snake with attacks fast enough to destroy his nade strategy, then you are not a good MK.

OK, so Omni and Spam are not good MKs? They are maybe just a tad worse than DSF...

 

[Xiivi]

Jesse, I'd say it's safest for MK to go with eating the f-tilt from down-throw if he thinks you're going to punish a roll away correctly. Downthrow + F-tilt is better to eat at a low percent than a downthrow + downthrow chase + f-tilt. This helps MK some if he finds himself getting grabbed at a lower percentage and knows you're going to be following this formula.

So Snake sees MK not rolling away at the low percentage, when he predicted that MK would roll away. This would be a good way to bait around Snake's grabgame. Since you expect high level users to want to avoid the 3/4 punishment and go with the safer roll away option and punish them for it. However taking the f-tilt off the bat the first time could be a good way to have Snake not predict the roll away and safely get away on other stocks or at higher percents.

Snake's got a great grab game with how well he covers things from the downthrow. However taking a bad hit early on is much better than getting caught in a more devastating grab set-up in future stocks. MK won't be grabbed too much in the match-up, but when he does deciding whether or not it's better to take the hit is crucial. Taking the hit is good for ruining Snake's predictions and better for getting out of a more devastating set-up at future times in the match.

Following this every time isn't good for MK of course, but every now and then just flat out eating the hit when you can eat the hit is better than risking half your stock.

Then you have MK's options with dealing with Snake using grenade control. When Snake has a grenade his options become more limited. Correctly rushing based on how Snake is holding the grenade (based on whether it's a fresh-pulled nade or a shield-dropped re-picked up nade) can limit Snake's options. If MK waits and forces Snake's only option is rolling due to the nade MK can get around the nade control some. At lower percents this is harder, as you have to throw Snake immediately or he'll break out. But since you'll throw immediately you'll end up eating the nade anyway, even with upthrow since you'll have landed. At higher percents you can wait for the nade to cook on the ground while Snake struggles and then upthrow to avoid eating the nade.

MK also can take advantage of Snake's limited options while he has a nade by simply dash-shielding and responding to Snake's action. A lot of the time dash-shield Snake with a grenade he either has to stay with shield up or roll away. The roll can be easily predicted and punished without worry of the grenade. Snake standing and waiting for the nade to time out results in MK being able to shield pressure when the nade knocks off some of Snake's shield with d-tilt safely.

Snake has a beastly nade game and grab game, but MK isn't hopeless against either of them. He has options, albiet limited and he needs to be really cautious about going about them and needs to correctly predict or he's getting a lot of damage or a lot of missed damage. Failing to punish a correctly predicted nade hurts MK a lot. He needs to get that damage on against campier Snakes and can't afford to miss out on that.

I do agree it's Snake advantage despite these strategies, but I don't believe it's 60-40 as you said earlier. I think it's 55-45 in Snake's favour. Even camping at his best, Snake can't completely shut-out MK as some think. MK just has limited options for correct punishment and needs to pay just as much attention to how Snake is holding his nade and how long they've been cooking and such. Falling into a grab trap can destroy MK, it can really hurt him. However MK can deal with mine/C4 traps fine and has a more decent time dealing with nades than other characters do. MK needs to not be stupid and flying into Snake's shield-dropped nades with aerials.

Also, I'd say MK's best options for counter-picking Snake are: Delfino, Rainbow, Battlefield (unless something silly like Pipes is legal). Battlefield is even, whereas Delfino/Rainbow I'd give MK a 55-45 adv on Snake. On other stages Snake can easily keep his 55-45 adv (or things like Halbred and Corneria can give him a 60-40 adv). Snake wins on the majority of Neutrals and on a lot of the counterpicks, but in no way is this that bad for MK that it is 60-40 in Snake's favour.

Edit: Also, I agree Snake is underrated, but not in the sense that he is the best character in the game. I still firmly believe MK is the best in the game, but not by as much as people like to exaggerate. I do believe however Snake hasn't been getting a lot of credit in match-up discussion on a lot of the character boards. A lot of the character boards see their character do well/not get ***** by Snake and assume that they go even/have a large advantage against him. Look at Fox from Melee. nearly everyone in the cast could perform devastating combos on him from Fox making just a minor mistake. However, despite that, Fox still went even with them or had the advantage. This is because Fox's tools were simply that good to outweigh these drawbacks. That's like Snake in here. Snake has enough devastating things that even if he does fall into the **** everything is very winnable for Snake.

 

[bludhoundz]

Btw to people that say MK's Dtilt beats Snake, I thought of a good strat to beat it. You shield the first or second Dtilt, let go of your shield for a split second then put it back up.

What this does is it shields the first hits, then powershields the next, allowing you to Ftilt immediately.

MK can follow up his dtilt with a dash grab. It doesn't have to be another dtilt. He can also initiate ftilt, and finish it very quickly. Also if you're not conditioned to nade when he's dtilting, dtilt -> nado. Hell, he can throw out a dsmash even (not in range? stutter step). I'm not saying all these options will always work. But you won't always be ready for all of them.

Unless you KNOW what MK is going to do, the dtilt trap puts you in a bad spot.

And yeah, Snake's downthrow is very good. I definitely agree. However I've watched multiple videos of Ally, Afro Thunder, DSF, Lambchops and many other Snakes. I don't see them get the regrab more than 1/2 of the time.

 

[CaliburChamp]

I agree that Snake does good against MK. With proof... Here is what you do.

1. Go to an online ladder like AiB or GB or another one.
2. Look up the top Snake and Meta Knight players.
3. Look at their feedback and look at who they defeated and won against.
4. Congratulations, now you see the good Snake's beat the good Metaknights most of the time.

This is proof. Check it out for yourselves if you don't believe me. This is how I evaluate this match up.

/best answer

 

[bludhoundz]

Since when is Wi-fi an accurate representation of anything?

 

[Kitamerby]

I agree that Snake does good against MK. With proof... Here is what you do.

1. Go to an online ladder like AiB or GB or another one.
2. Look up the top Snake and Meta Knight players.
3. Look at their feedback and look at who they defeated and won against.
4. Congratulations, now you see the good Snake's beat the good Metaknights most of the time.

This is proof. Check it out for yourselves if you don't believe me. This is how I evaluate this match up.

/best answer

Everything can be proven on WiFi, right?

 

[Infinitysmash]

Since when is Wi-fi an accurate representation of anything?

Since when is randomly claiming something without any verifiable proof an accurate representation of anything? While I don't play online (any more) or really support online play, good players are still good players dude.

Everything can be proven on WiFi, right?

At least he had the decency to back up his argument with data you can go out and verify yourself rather than wildly complaining about something and claiming he's right.

 

[CaliburChamp]

Everything can be proven on WiFi, right?

If the player is known to lag alot, then no its not an exact representation. Look to see in their feedback to see people's comments on the lag. I'm talking about red connection and orange connection lag, making the lag ruin your game.
Its actually a good deciding point to this whole argument.

This is Clouderz (A top online Metaknight player) record:http://allisbrawl.com/ladder/player.aspx?id=3632
Notice... he lost to Ally, he uses Snake... also notice that he lost to SK92 Falco... this tells me that a high level Meta knight player will usually lose to Snakes and Falco players at around the same level of skill.

This is the proof I'm talking about. Snake and Falco are bad match ups for Meta Knight.

 

[bludhoundz]

Since when is randomly claiming something without any verifiable proof an accurate representation of anything? While I don't play online (any more) or really support online play, good players are still good players dude.

At least he had the decency to back up his argument with data you can go out and verify yourself rather than wildly complaining about something and claiming he's right.

I am not sure what you are referring to in your first sentence. If it's directed toward something I said previously -- I don't believe I made any claims that weren't backed up by something. If you're just saying that at least he presented some data - I fully agree, he's done a lot better than a lot of people in this thread by actually posting some type of proof. However Wifi isn't a fully accurate representation of what good MKs and good Snakes (yeah, good players ARE good players) are capable of, and thus using that data doesn't make his argument irrefutable.

BTW CaliburChamp -- I have only heard Clouderz' name maybe once before. However Ally is argued to be one of, if not the best Snakes, and SK92 is probably the best falco, maybe 2nd best at worst. This does not seem like they are all of equal skill level to me.

Also you're cheapening your argument by saying Falco is good against MK. It's been verified that he isn't. Snake is still up for debate, though.

 

[Nic64]

XD falco, it was bad enough that you tried to make it seem like online means much of anything, but falco > MK? stop it

 

[CaliburChamp]

XD falco, it was bad enough that you tried to make it seem like online means much of anything, but falco > MK? stop it

Look on the Falco boards on the match up chart. Further proof to you.... Notice how I'm not using my own opinion, but obvious proof. I suggest you nay sayers to do the same.

bludhoundz: Clouderz is ranked top 5 on AiB currently, I used the top 10 people on the ladder as examples. Clouderz is one of the best MK's, Ally is one of the best Snakes, and SK92 is one of the best Falco's. So I assume, that we can assume they all play their characters at a very high level.

 

[Affinity]

Look on the Falco boards on the match up chart. Further proof to you.... Notice how I'm not using my own opinion, but obvious proof. I suggest you nay sayers to do the same.

Match-up charts are usually inaccurate.

If the player is known to lag alot, then no its not an exact representation. Look to see in their feedback to see people's comments on the lag. I'm talking about red connection and orange connection lag, making the lag ruin your game.
Its actually a good deciding point to this whole argument.

Brawl Wifi is a joke. Even if there's no lag, there's delay (button lag). This goes even for a blue connection.

Clouderz is one of the best MK's

No, he's not.

 

[Omni]

For those who played Melee, picture MK as Fox. If MK is played perfectly, he would be unbeatable just as if Fox is played perfectly.

MK's tough match-ups are as following:
Snake
Falco
DDD
Wario
Diddy

Snake because from the start of the match, MK is at a disadvantage. If Snake plays smart and patient and trades damage with grenades, MK will enter kill range first. Also, a good Snake player will always choose to be safe, responsive, and conservative rather than being risky against MK. In the end, MK does not have a completely safe approach toward Snake. The advantage for MK in this match-up is if he succeeds in getting Snake in the air or off the stage. The only Snake I've lost to in tournament was DSF, and I've played my fair share of Snakes. I don't mean to sound like an elitist, but unless you're in area with heavily populated talented Snakes such as Chillin, Greg, Candy then it would be too hard for you to judge.

I'll explain Falco, DDD, and Wario more if asked.

This weekend, I lost to Azen's Marth and Chu's Kirby. Was it because Marth and Kirby are tough match-ups for MK? No. It was because Azen and Chu understand MK's weaknesses. The same goes for Bum's DK who was able to beat a tornado-spamming Inui.

My point is that specific character isn't what gives MK a bad match-up. It's the person's play style who's using the character that turns the match into a bad one.

 

[brinboy789]

Brinboy, we get it. You'll cling to anything you can find that is in favor of not banning MK. You can stop now.

nah. ill cling to anything thats has some use. unlike you proban people who ALWAYS cling to "NO BAD MATCHUPS" as thier main point.